War - Rules

[kev]

So the clock for all players starts at the same time?  It's not like there's a bunch of bidless slaves at the market until a Master bids on one and starts that slave's clock.  Is that right?

If a General fails to win the required 5 players, he/she has to buy one or more remaining players with a price of 18 cards. This is why it's very important to bid on multiple different people to ensure that you will be the highest bidder in at least 5 occasions.

But if a Master currently has out six bids he is at risk of losing his extreme value bid on JohnnyNoob for 1.

In your example...
For example lets say I had made the following bids:

Player A - 9 cards (highest bidder)
Player B - 8 cards (3rd highest bidder)
Player C - 8 cards (highest bidder)
Player D - 7 cards (highest bidder)
Player E - 5 cards (highest bidder)
Player F - 4 cards (2nd highest bidder)
Player G - 3 cards (highest bidder)
Player H - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player I - 2 cards (highest bidder)

I would win players A, C, D, E, and G. I wouldn't win players B or F because I wasn't the highest bidder, and I wouldn't win players H or I because they were the lowest of my bids.

My team would cost me 9 + 8 + 7 + 5 + 3 = 32 cards. This means that the starting Vault of my team would be 400 - 32 = 368 cards.Suppose Opposing Master wins five players with bids of 6+ cards and had been the highest bidder on Player F with a bid of 5 cards.  Does player F then become mine for 4 cards, kicking out player G?

Everyone uses the same clock. When that clock goes to zero, the auction is over.

Not sure what you mean by that next question. Can you please clarify? I'd like to find all the possible flaws in the auction system.

Yes. The 6th (smallest) bid by the opposing Master "disappears", and you become the highest bidder on player F.

Btw, I assume in the following scenario:
 Player A - 9 cards (highest bidder)
Player B - 8 cards (highest bidder)
Player C - 8 cards (highest bidder)
Player D - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player E - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player F - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player G - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player H - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player I - 2 cards (highest bidder)
 I would win players A-E because I bid on D and E before F-I (i.e. ties go to first bids).  If I instead got to choose which player I wanted, I could just bid one on every player and then sort it out afterwards.

Now that I got some sleep I’ll try to explain my concern more succinctly.  Because all clocks start at the same time, many will expire bidless 24 hours in.

The first big decision each Master has to make is how many bids to place during the first 24 hours.  If a Master bids on only five he needs to win all five or he is forced to take someone else for 18.  You’re recommendation to avoid this was to make more than five bids.  So say the Master instead bids on seven players, and wins six.  The guy who’s dropped is the 1-card bid slave.

Combine this with disappearing bids that make it difficult to figure out where you stand, and it feels like it’ll be difficult to draft new players for 1.  If every Master puts out five opening bids in the Palace and two in the Slave Market, the two Slaves need to pray for the Master to be outbid on the Loyalists.  Otherwise they have no shot.

What I’m getting at: It looks like players are not incentivized to choose the Slave Market.  If you get a 1 bid in the Slave Market, you may still be SOL.  If you’re bid on as a Loyalist, however, you’re much more likely to be drafted.  Worse, Masters who are really excited about a Slave might be forced to put out only five bids and then HAVE TO win them all.

A possible solution: Have player clocks start and stop independently.
Day 1: I open bid three players and bid on a fourth over another Master.
Day 2: Bidding closes on two of my three opening bids, and I’ve been outbid on the other two.  I up my bid for those two and open bid two more players, starting their clocks at 24 hoursThe advantage is that it allows Masters a better opportunity to get players they actually want.  Also, it’d help new players who are worth a bid but under the current system would not be drafted.  The disadvantage is that it takes longer.  It’s unrefined, but it’s the best I have.

Also, you didn’t specifically answer the following question…

Does a player become mine when his timer ends or is the mess sorted out at the end?

…but based off your other answers it’s clear that things are sorted out when all timers have expired.

[Korugar]

Posting so I can keep an eye on this topic...

[truddy02]

The way it was meant to work is that the highest bidder always wins.

The player has to accept the bid before a new one is made. In this example the player would be unable to accept the bid of 18 cards by  because  has the highest bid.

You already stated that the point of the +24 hour rule is to give time make extra decisions in case someone snipe's the bid but the thing what you say here goes against that saying that even if person A gets a bid from the team they want to join but are asleep they have no chance to accept it if someone else comes along.

There seems to be nothing in the rules against letting a player know you plan to make a bid on them soon.  It seems like the best strategy may be to consort with the player a bit to make sure they know you are about to bid 18 cards on them.  If a master sees that a top player lists their element as the one they would most like to play for, they could let them know in chat or PM to make sure that they can accept the bid immediately, or wait until they can accept the bid.  Since most players that could get 18 cards bid on them will likely be loyalists and only 3 elements can bid on them, you should generally be able to work this out.

[xdude]

The way it was meant to work is that the highest bidder always wins.

The player has to accept the bid before a new one is made. In this example the player would be unable to accept the bid of 18 cards by  because  has the highest bid.

You already stated that the point of the +24 hour rule is to give time make extra decisions in case someone snipe's the bid but the thing what you say here goes against that saying that even if person A gets a bid from the team they want to join but are asleep they have no chance to accept it if someone else comes along.

There seems to be nothing in the rules against letting a player know you plan to make a bid on them soon.  It seems like the best strategy may be to consort with the player a bit to make sure they know you are about to bid 18 cards on them.  If a master sees that a top player lists their element as the one they would most like to play for, they could let them know in chat or PM to make sure that they can accept the bid immediately, or wait until they can accept the bid.  Since most players that could get 18 cards bid on them will likely be loyalists and only 3 elements can bid on them, you should generally be able to work this out.

And I see nothing wrong with it. Especially given the fact that players can lie

[Scaredgirl]

So the clock for all players starts at the same time?  It's not like there's a bunch of bidless slaves at the market until a Master bids on one and starts that slave's clock.  Is that right?

If a General fails to win the required 5 players, he/she has to buy one or more remaining players with a price of 18 cards. This is why it's very important to bid on multiple different people to ensure that you will be the highest bidder in at least 5 occasions.

But if a Master currently has out six bids he is at risk of losing his extreme value bid on JohnnyNoob for 1.

In your example...
For example lets say I had made the following bids:

Player A - 9 cards (highest bidder)
Player B - 8 cards (3rd highest bidder)
Player C - 8 cards (highest bidder)
Player D - 7 cards (highest bidder)
Player E - 5 cards (highest bidder)
Player F - 4 cards (2nd highest bidder)
Player G - 3 cards (highest bidder)
Player H - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player I - 2 cards (highest bidder)

I would win players A, C, D, E, and G. I wouldn't win players B or F because I wasn't the highest bidder, and I wouldn't win players H or I because they were the lowest of my bids.

My team would cost me 9 + 8 + 7 + 5 + 3 = 32 cards. This means that the starting Vault of my team would be 400 - 32 = 368 cards.Suppose Opposing Master wins five players with bids of 6+ cards and had been the highest bidder on Player F with a bid of 5 cards.  Does player F then become mine for 4 cards, kicking out player G?

Everyone uses the same clock. When that clock goes to zero, the auction is over.

Not sure what you mean by that next question. Can you please clarify? I'd like to find all the possible flaws in the auction system.

Yes. The 6th (smallest) bid by the opposing Master "disappears", and you become the highest bidder on player F.

Btw, I assume in the following scenario:
 Player A - 9 cards (highest bidder)
Player B - 8 cards (highest bidder)
Player C - 8 cards (highest bidder)
Player D - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player E - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player F - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player G - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player H - 2 cards (highest bidder)
Player I - 2 cards (highest bidder)
 I would win players A-E because I bid on D and E before F-I (i.e. ties go to first bids).  If I instead got to choose which player I wanted, I could just bid one on every player and then sort it out afterwards.

Now that I got some sleep I’ll try to explain my concern more succinctly.  Because all clocks start at the same time, many will expire bidless 24 hours in.

The first big decision each Master has to make is how many bids to place during the first 24 hours.  If a Master bids on only five he needs to win all five or he is forced to take someone else for 18.  You’re recommendation to avoid this was to make more than five bids.  So say the Master instead bids on seven players, and wins six.  The guy who’s dropped is the 1-card bid slave.

Combine this with disappearing bids that make it difficult to figure out where you stand, and it feels like it’ll be difficult to draft new players for 1.  If every Master puts out five opening bids in the Palace and two in the Slave Market, the two Slaves need to pray for the Master to be outbid on the Loyalists.  Otherwise they have no shot.

What I’m getting at: It looks like players are not incentivized to choose the Slave Market.  If you get a 1 bid in the Slave Market, you may still be SOL.  If you’re bid on as a Loyalist, however, you’re much more likely to be drafted.  Worse, Masters who are really excited about a Slave might be forced to put out only five bids and then HAVE TO win them all.

A possible solution: Have player clocks start and stop independently.
Day 1: I open bid three players and bid on a fourth over another Master.
Day 2: Bidding closes on two of my three opening bids, and I’ve been outbid on the other two.  I up my bid for those two and open bid two more players, starting their clocks at 24 hoursThe advantage is that it allows Masters a better opportunity to get players they actually want.  Also, it’d help new players who are worth a bid but under the current system would not be drafted.  The disadvantage is that it takes longer.  It’s unrefined, but it’s the best I have.

Also, you didn’t specifically answer the following question…

Does a player become mine when his timer ends or is the mess sorted out at the end?

…but based off your other answers it’s clear that things are sorted out when all timers have expired.

We talked about this on the chat.

I don't see a huge problem with the current system. Players who get bid on the most, get picked. That's how I think an auction should work.

The reason why 5 highest bids count is that I wanted to prevent Generals from backing out from high bids. If you cannot afford to pay for a player, or don't want him/her on your team, don't make a bid

That being said, I'm always open for new ideas.

The multiple clock thing.. I think it would be too time-consuming for the organizers.

[jmdt]

There seems to be nothing in the rules against letting a player know you plan to make a bid on them soon.  It seems like the best strategy may be to consort with the player a bit to make sure they know you are about to bid 18 cards on them.  If a master sees that a top player lists their element as the one they would most like to play for, they could let them know in chat or PM to make sure that they can accept the bid immediately, or wait until they can accept the bid.  Since most players that could get 18 cards bid on them will likely be loyalists and only 3 elements can bid on them, you should generally be able to work this out.

If you are dead set on playing for one element then that would be the way to go.  All assumung you can actually get the master to fork over 18 cards for you.

It will be interesting to see how many players command bids this high.  If I were a master I'd pick the 5 players I want, talk with them, bid 18 and get the auction over in the first 10 minutes, but I doubt this will happen much in actuality.  Some masters will bid high for several good players, but from my general survey of masters or masters candidates more of them seem to favoring card advantage over bidding too high.  At this point its all conecture, but regardless the auction will be the social event of the year.

[Dragoon]

Edited a little since I was ninja'd:

Maybe we could have a tiered timing system so that there is more overlap.  Have the Slave timer set to 24 hours, Mercenaries set at 48 hours, and Loyalists at 72 hours.  Or they can be abbreviated to 24, 36, and 48 hours or something along those lines.  That way you can bid on a Slave first and get him before you have to decide on putting a bid in on a Merc or Loyalists.

Edit:

The multiple clock thing.. I think it would be too time-consuming for the organizers.

Wait, so the clock being reset is for everyone and not per person?  I misunderstood that part.  So how does that work then?  Every time anyone gets bid on the clock is extended by 24 hours for everyone?
Edit2: Okay, I read the rules again.  Must have missed that somehow on the first read through.

Also we could have both a universal and individual timer.  At first there is only the universal timer.  Once that timer ends, anybody that hasn't been bid on can't be bid on anymore (but can still be picked up if a Master doesn't have a full roster after winning bids).  Once the universal timer ends, the individual timers kick in for everyone that has been bid on.  This gives Masters plenty of time to look over everyone instead of spam bidding to make sure you have enough options later and not pay any hefty penalty.  But it still keeps the individual timers to avoid the sniping.
Edit: Nvm, that's what we have basically I think.

Also what if we tiered the auto-buy option for the different levels instead of the set 18 cards?  Like maybe 12 cards for a slave, 15 for a merc, and 18 for a loyalist?  That way those who are slaves and mercs still get their advantage of being cheaper.
Edit: Nvm.  That can be abused by people too easily.

[Scaredgirl]

Edited a little since I was ninja'd:

Maybe we could have a tiered timing system so that there is more overlap.  Have the Slave timer set to 24 hours, Mercenaries set at 48 hours, and Loyalists at 72 hours.  Or they can be abbreviated to 24, 36, and 48 hours or something along those lines.  That way you can bid on a Slave first and get him before you have to decide on putting a bid in on a Merc or Loyalists.  So that means you'd have to setup 3 different auction areas with their own timers.

I thought about the same thing at first when kevkev suggested multiple clocks. The problem is that players can change their roles. If slave section would be closed, all the slaves would move to other sections. Same thing would happen again when the next section closes. That might be a bit chaotic and doesn't really make sense.

Edit:

The multiple clock thing.. I think it would be too time-consuming for the organizers.

Wait, so the clock being reset is for everyone and not per person?  I misunderstood that part.  So how does that work then?  Every time anyone gets bid on the clock is extended by 24 hours for everyone?

Exactly.

Every time when there is less than 24 hours in the clock, and anyone gets bid on, the clock gets reset, and the minimum raise increases by one.

Also what if we tiered the auto-buy option for the different levels instead of the set 18 cards?  Like maybe 12 cards for a slave, 15 for a merc, and 18 for a loyalist?  That way those who are slaves and mercs still get their advantage of being cheaper.

My first reaction to this was that it's a perfect solution that would solve all our problems. However after 10 seconds my initial excitement washed away as I realized that with this system a General could build a team of hand-picked veterans for only 60 cards. All they need to do it list as slaves and 5 seconds later the General bids 12. EDIT: Seems like you realized this yourself.

If that "exploit" could somehow be fixed, this could work.

[Dragoon]

I thought about the same thing at first when kevkev suggested multiple clocks. The problem is that players can change their roles. If slave section would be closed, all the slaves would move to other sections. Same thing would happen again when the next section closes. That might be a bit chaotic and doesn't really make sense.

If people aren't being bid on, they will want to move to a cheaper area.  And people can only move once if they haven't already been bid on.  So if you added the rule that you can only move downward in the employment area you can still set the timers differently and not have to worry about an exodus to another auction area.  Have the Slave market finish a day earlier and only be extended by 24 hours.  And then a day later have the Merc auctions end with extensions that last 36 hours.  And then finally a day after that, have the Loyalist auction end with extensions that last 48 hours.

[Scaredgirl]

I thought about the same thing at first when kevkev suggested multiple clocks. The problem is that players can change their roles. If slave section would be closed, all the slaves would move to other sections. Same thing would happen again when the next section closes. That might be a bit chaotic and doesn't really make sense.

If people aren't being bid on, they will want to move to a cheaper area.  And people can only move once if they haven't already been bid on.  So if you added the rule that you can only move downward in the employment area you can still set the timers differently and not have to worry about an exodus to another auction area.  Have the Slave market finish a day earlier and only be extended by 24 hours.  And then a day later have the Merc auctions end with extensions that last 36 hours.  And then finally a day after that, have the Loyalist auction end with extensions that last 48 hours.

There's a problem with that system as well.

The reason I made the "moving to a cheaper area" rule, was that Loyalist who for some reason wouldn't get a single bid, would still be able to join a team by lowering their price.

Lets say we did like you suggest. I become a Loyalist thinking that someone will bid for me. Nobody does. It's too late to move to a cheaper area because they are closed. I am out of the event and cannot do anything about it. Some Generals might have wanted to bid on me, but the high price tag made them not to. Had I chosen mercenary or a slave, I would have been picked.

I think it would make becoming a Loyalist way too risky.

[Dragoon]

He could still move from Loyalist down to Merc or Slave.  I'm saying Slaves can't move up to Merc or Loyalist.  And if they aren't being bid on as Slaves, chances are next to none that they'll be bid on as a more expensive option so it'd be a moot point for them to move.  I add that rule so that you can end the Slave auction earlier and not have a bunch of people who want to move to another auction that hasn't ended.

[Azumi]

Since this war is starting during the school year instead of during the summer I would like to add a requirement to the War.

All players should submit a fight time to the warmasters (Azumi and Safko, and maybe SG if she wants). This would allow the warmasters and SG time to free their schedule to be on during those times or discuss with each other if one of them can not make it during the WAR fight times.

I would request that these fight times be followed. Obviously if something comes up there can't be anything we can do. There should be a minor penalty to the player that does not show up on time. Penalty will be applied after a reason is given and either accepted or rejected.

As for deck penalties I hope we will be able to minimalize it since there are 2 warmasters that will be looking over your vaults. I will try to post on the threads after I have looked over them and confirmed that they don't violate anything. Any edits after my/ safko's/ SG's post are at your own risk.

My penalty ideas:

Failure to show up to scheduled fight time: -5 cards
Failure to submit Decks: -5 cards
Illegal deck: - 10 cards (this might have to vary depending on if WM checked and posted on your thread and then you edited after. -10cards would be max (i.e editing decks after WM posts)