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Offline icecoldbro

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg233696#msg233696
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2010, 08:42:25 pm »
So why aren't they fighting each other literally?  Looking at this war, I'm thinking of suggesting a secondary win condition of having more than 50% of the card influence.  At that point, I think it's fair to say you've won, and that way it'll let the teams fight each other for second, instead of second place going to the team that resists the inevitable the longest.  If life beats fire this war, it won't be because life is better than fire, it'll be because life is better at beating entropy than fire.  That just seems dumb.
I dont think this would make any sense to implement anything, as if lets say two teams are dominating the war
E.g       Team A has 43% of Team B has a very possible chance of winning, turning around the odds.
Id say that their total influence has to be over 50% AND have twice as many cards as next highest amount of cards team.

QuantumT

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg233699#msg233699
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2010, 08:46:13 pm »
It does seem a bit silly the way that second is being decided. Currently :air is in a good position to take 2nd just because that's what happens if entropy manages to sweep.

I don't know if I want to just give :entropy the win either though. I know the chance isn't very high, but it's still possible for another team to defeat them.

Offline Glitch

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg233705#msg233705
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2010, 08:56:15 pm »
So why aren't they fighting each other literally?  Looking at this war, I'm thinking of suggesting a secondary win condition of having more than 50% of the card influence.  At that point, I think it's fair to say you've won, and that way it'll let the teams fight each other for second, instead of second place going to the team that resists the inevitable the longest.  If life beats fire this war, it won't be because life is better than fire, it'll be because life is better at beating entropy than fire.  That just seems dumb.
I dont think this would make any sense to implement anything, as if lets say two teams are dominating the war
E.g       Team A has 43% of Team B has a very possible chance of winning, turning around the odds.
Id say that their total influence has to be over 50% AND have twice as many cards as next highest amount of cards team.
Didn't think of that.  Good idea!

Offline Zeru

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg233799#msg233799
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2010, 10:46:05 pm »
Id say that their total influence has to be over 50% AND have twice as many cards as next highest amount of cards team.
I would never ever give up the war just because one of the team dominated it. And just look at your idea. The would mean that there will be no epic final battle.
In war #1 Antagon could make 3 decks and I could make 1. That means auto-lose when I still had a slight chance to win. I object and protest against any alternative winning conditions.


Offline Glitch

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg233812#msg233812
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2010, 11:23:42 pm »
So you would rather position two go to the person who was best at surviving the winner, instead of the person who was best of the remaining three survivors?  You'd rather all three teams fight entropy than they fight each other?

Offline Zeru

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg233817#msg233817
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2010, 11:30:24 pm »
So you would rather position two go to the person who was best at surviving the winner, instead of the person who was best of the remaining three survivors?  You'd rather all three teams fight entropy than they fight each other?
I would place them according to the current rules (last standing). I disagree with the "card left in vault" rank though.


If you look at war 1, the dominating team (:earth) failed and lost their position. If the three remaining teams were to fight each other, it would make even less sense. I think it's natural for humans to unite vs a common enemy when that enemy is getting stronger than their forces combined.

Offline truddy02

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg233828#msg233828
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2010, 12:04:28 am »
I am also against alternate win conditions.  The whole point is to see who wins.  To win you should have to outlast and at the end eliminate all other teams.  While its nice to finish high, the ultimate goal is to win and I don't think you should give that honor to any team until they are the last remaining.

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg233845#msg233845
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2010, 01:10:00 am »
So you would rather position two go to the person who was best at surviving the winner, instead of the person who was best of the remaining three survivors?  You'd rather all three teams fight entropy than they fight each other?
The problem with this is the assumption that Entropy are automatically the winners because they are currently winning, when their victory is not an inevitability (regardless of SV's self-aggrandising declarations to the contrary). Also, they deserve the challenge and satisfaction of eliminating the rest of the teams. Imagine if Team Life were in that position - it wouldn't be a proper victory if we weren't given the opportunity to beat everyone else.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg234009#msg234009
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2010, 08:30:03 am »
On second place: the real story this war is that the two teams who performed second- and third-best overall -- those teams being Fire and Death -- had single detrimental rounds late. It may feel odd for the weaker teams who are now propelled into a potential second place, like Air or Life, to be competing with relatively so little in front of them, but the fact is that their admission to second is something of a fluke. In other words, for Air or Life to be able to finish second is only possible in the combined light of Fire and Death crashing and Entropy managing to lose to them a few games in a row that were sudden death. Under normal circumstances the late-stage battling would be between those fewer well-performing teams. After all is said and done this war, we will surely all get together as a community and discuss which mechanics can be altered to improve next war, and maybe that process will alleviate some of the difficulties of lower-standing teams that seem unnecessarily tough. (60 cards = two decks is a tough rule in and of itself, for instance).

As it is, if Fire comes out in 4th place and Death much lower, it will feel wrong. The second and third best teams this war were Fire and Death, not anyone else. Capturing that in the standings in some way -- or rather, analyzing why that wasn't captured as such -- could be useful as we move forward.

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg234011#msg234011
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2010, 08:47:04 am »
On second place: the real story this war is that the two teams who performed second- and third-best overall -- those teams being Fire and Death -- had single detrimental rounds late. It may feel odd for the weaker teams who are now propelled into a potential second place, like Air or Life, to be competing with relatively so little in front of them, but the fact is that their admission to second is something of a fluke. In other words, for Air or Life to be able to finish second is only possible in the combined light of Fire and Death crashing and Entropy managing to lose to them a few games in a row that were sudden death. Under normal circumstances the late-stage battling would be between those fewer well-performing teams. After all is said and done this war, we will surely all get together as a community and discuss which mechanics can be altered to improve next war, and maybe that process will alleviate some of the difficulties of lower-standing teams that seem unnecessarily tough. (60 cards = two decks is a tough rule in and of itself, for instance).

As it is, if Fire comes out in 4th place and Death much lower, it will feel wrong. The second and third best teams this war were Fire and Death, not anyone else. Capturing that in the standings in some way -- or rather, analyzing why that wasn't captured as such -- could be useful as we move forward.
I don't really see why :death deserves to place any higher than :air . Their record is only 1 win better than ours currently. We also have the best record against entropy of any team in the war.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg234024#msg234024
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2010, 09:26:20 am »
I don't really see why :death deserves to place any higher than :air . Their record is only 1 win better than ours currently. We also have the best record against entropy of any team in the war.
Well, Death was a strong competitor that actually threatened some dominance ... Air racked up a couple of wins in sudden death mode when we essentially played stupid decks against you (we could have done the same against Aether, Time, Darkness, etc and their record would improve). So at no point did Air seriously challenge our dominant position. Nonetheless your point is taken, Air should probably be in the top-5 ... which it already is. I was speaking more about teams like Life who really had a pretty unsuccessful war and who have survived on RNG since round 8 ... not that Life hasn't done pretty well but their placement above a team like Death more a funny circumstance of war mechanics more than a representation of overall success.

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Re: War - Round 10 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18294.msg234039#msg234039
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2010, 11:12:21 am »
As it is, if Fire comes out in 4th place and Death much lower, it will feel wrong. The second and third best teams this war were Fire and Death, not anyone else. Capturing that in the standings in some way -- or rather, analyzing why that wasn't captured as such -- could be useful as we move forward.
Sorting the final results based on a feeling might not be the best way to go. Sorting them based on who you personally think should be in the top-3, is not a good idea either.

:air is still in the game because they won when it mattered the most. Teams that have been eliminated, didn't.

I like rules where a single player can win the whole thing, as long as that single player keeps winning. The way I see it, as long as a team has one player standing, that team is still in the game. Who cares what happened during earlier rounds?

 

blarg: