War - Feedback

[kobisjeruk]

both basilisk blood and gravity pull function perfectly fine on their own
if you're attempting to swap the whole voodoo doll + basilisk blood + gravity pull + twin universe combo, try harder

[Korugar]

Ok, let me rephrase that. During war(which is what we're talking about) when you have to have at least 50% of your own element, and by elements other than darkness, and possibly death, it's almost completely useless without those cards.

[kobisjeruk]

i dont get it
are you saying voodoo dolls are useless without gravity pull / basilisk blood OR the other way around?
because if its the former, we are trying to replace dolls, thus issue of it (the doll) being useless is irrelevant
if its the latter...refer to my previous post

[Korugar]

OK, I'm saying the latter. Fine, I'll quit using absolutes in my sentences. Many teams might have those specific cards in their vault for purely voodoo reasons. This late in the war, as vaults are shrinking and certain cards may have been kept for certain reason. While BB and GP may not be useless in normal circumstances, they may be near useless in this particular environment except for their specific elements. Happy now?

[hrmmm]

i would like to have a war2 deck collection in the Deck Archive (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,177.0.html).

of corse the decks would be gathered and posted after the war, or when a team is out.

my idea for such a collection:

every team (out of the war) submits 2 decks.
this decks deck must be played in the war.

- the most  beautiful/awsome/genius/good looking deck. this dont have to be a succesfull deck, just the deck the team likes the most.
- the winner deck -> the deck that won the most duels for your team (if 2 decks are equal in wins, the team can pick what they like to post). this can mean also a deck type (75% same cards) to include different tweaks of the same deck.

then we could determine the most successful deck (most wins) of the war, and give this deck a special place (#1) in the archive.
i would also like to do a poll then, to vote for the most beautiful/awsome/genius/good looking deck.

do you like it?
please comment

[jmdt]

i would like to have a war2 deck collection in the Deck Archive (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,177.0.html).

of corse the decks would be gathered and posted after the war, or when a team is out.

my idea for such a collection:

every team (out of the war) submits 2 decks.
this decks deck must be played in the war.

- the most  beautiful/awsome/genius/good looking deck. this dont have to be a succesfull deck, just the deck the team likes the most.
- the winner deck -> the deck that won the most duels for your team (if 2 decks are equal in wins, the team can pick what they like to post). this can mean also a deck type (75% same cards) to include different tweaks of the same deck.

then we could determine the most successful deck (most wins) of the war, and give this deck a special place (#1) in the archive.
i would also like to do a poll then, to vote for the most beautiful/awsome/genius/good looking deck.

do you like it?
please comment

Epic 500th post.  I like this idea.

[suxerz]

i would like to have a war2 deck collection in the Deck Archive (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,177.0.html).

of course the decks would be gathered and posted after the war, or when a team is out.

my idea for such a collection:

every team (out of the war) submits 2 decks.
this decks deck must be played in the war.

- the most beautiful/awesome/genius/good looking deck. this don't have to be a successful deck, just the deck the team likes the most.
- the winner deck -> the deck that won the most duels for your team (if 2 decks are equal in wins, the team can pick what they like to post). this can mean also a deck type (75% same cards) to include different tweaks of the same deck.

then we could determine the most successful deck (most wins) of the war, and give this deck a special place (#1) in the archive.
i would also like to do a poll then, to vote for the most beautiful/awesome/genius/good looking deck.

do you like it?
please comment

I really like the idea but I feel it will be most obvious that the team who have lasted longest will have the best deck due to larger vault. This also means we might not be able to see the true potential of a great war deck from a the other team. Not all defeats are caused by bad deck.

[Dragoon]

A properly constructed vault with appropriately chosen decks could make it through the entire war without this being an issue, regardless of their record.

I don't think it has to be one or the other, and I think team is a decent example of that. We're doing quite well for ourselves, and that's after having a disastrous 3rd round. Our vault had enough redundancy in how it was setup that those losses were something we could suffer without being completely ruined.

I'm just curious to see if you still feel the same way, QuantumT, now that we're in R6 and your team has chosen to field a suicide deck.  Maybe though we should wait until after War is over or Air is eliminated to review how things went.

Another question: are we having nearly the same amount of suicides as last War?

[Zeru]

Another question: are we having nearly the same amount of suicides as last War?

Before you start counting. A lot more matches happened in war #2 and the teams are bigger. This means that you can get more suicides but a lower suicide rate. The latter is more important.

[jmdt]

Another question: are we having nearly the same amount of suicides as last War?

Part of the suicide thing is due to war rules.  Once you get below 9 decks, you are almost forced to suicide if you were playing to win and had a few losses (i.e. focusing on having the best decks and not keeping extra cards/pillars) and likely if playing accounting for losses (even with redundancy, losing whole decks wrecks up a vault causing incoherent decks that will end up losing anyways).  Switching to vault/36 versus vault/30 should show fewer suicides and allow teams to keep 'opportunity cards' once their vault starts dwindling down.

[QuantumT]

I'm just curious to see if you still feel the same way, QuantumT, now that we're in R6 and your team has chosen to field a suicide deck.  Maybe though we should wait until after War is over or Air is eliminated to review how things went.

I don't really feel any differently about it no. We chose to a bunch of decks with high pillar counts in R5 and lost more than we could afford to, so we had to pay the price.

[Xinef]

Another question: are we having nearly the same amount of suicides as last War?

Before you start counting. A lot more matches happened in war #2 and the teams are bigger. This means that you can get more suicides but a lower suicide rate. The latter is more important.

I guess no matter the ratio, the reason why suicides are done is quite different this war for a number of reasons.

Reasons for making a suicide deck:

War #1

War #2

Having a wrong pillar/other in-element card ratio. Instead of making 5 imbalanced decks, it was better to make 4 balanced ones, and one with 15 pillars of your element/15 non-pillar cards of your element, and 15 other cards that were the least useful to your team. Not having a good counter against one of the teams, so it was better to strengthen the other decks and forfeit that one battle. Having stall decks in the vault and being forced to play 30 card decks. (yes, it happened in war #2 with , but it could happen the same in war #1, the new rules didn't change this aspect)

Having <50% in-element cards, so you are forced by rules to play illegal decks. -Can be caused by salvaging (salvaging is often more harmful than good) -Can be caused by poor discarding. (wasn't a problem in war #1 when you had to discard 30 cards from the very beginning) -Can be caused by poor vault building. (Vault building was easier in war #1, since it was possible to calculate the approximate number of pillars needed (roughly 40% of vault's size). Rules of war #2 on the other hand mean that depending on how good your team is doing, you might need less or more pillars (if you keep winning, you have a number of rounds to convert eg. salvaged cards into pillars as you need them, if you lose a lot, you can't convert enough.) All of the reasons from war #1 are still valid, although the first one can be partially fixed through conversions (only if you have too few pillars, conversion can't help with too few non-pillar cards).

Conclusions:
In war #1 suicides were either caused by poor vault building, or were a strategic decision when vault was already limited. After a number of suicides, the ratio of in-element cards was generally fixed, so no more suicides were needed.

In war #2 they depend more on team's discarding and converting choices, although vault building is still important. Salvaging cards can be a bad thing. Generally, in early rounds the ratio of in-element cards to off-element cards is higher, and is lowering with each passing round, this is being fixed through conversions, but then it causes the pillar/non-pillar ratio to become broken. The later the round, the more broken one of the ratios is (or even both, if your team faces an unlucky streak of losses). Generally, after a number of suicides some of these problems are fixed (eg. stall decks problem, poor vault design problem), but still the changing ratios problem will last as long as the team is salvaging cards. Some problems exist only in early rounds (before 30 card discarding), so these won't cause suicides afterwards.

Final conclusion:
As much as I like the majority of the new rules, I have to say they did very little to stop suicide decks, and in fact added a lot of reasons to make them. If the ratio of suicide decks is lower in war #2, it's mostly caused by the fact that teams already had experience from the previous war, so vault building was better.