War - Feedback

[Scaredgirl]

I do think that cards per player should be changed a bit, for example one person playing per 36 cards, so that it doesn't make that much of a difference if a team has a number of cards divisible by 30 or a few cards in one way or the other.

I thought about the same thing today. I even thought about the same exact number, 36.

It would be much better because with the current system, if you have a Vault that can be divided by 30, you are forced to use 30 card decks which gives your opponent a huge advantage. Example of this is Team Underworld with 240 cards and 8 players.

With one player fighting for every 36 cards the team has, players have more options.

Downside to this is of course that Vaults need to be bigger and/or more players cannot join the round because of lack of cards.

If I'm totally wrong please explain why. I searched the forum for explanations why conversions were limited to 12 cards, and the only explanation I've found was Terroking and Scaredgirl calling it an exploit, but with no further explanation why is it wrong or harmful to the event. If it was discussed in chat, I don't know about it.

The "exploit" is building your Vault so that it has zero Pillars and Pendulums, and then converting cards depending on who you have to face. It's not a huge game breaking exploit, but it is silly and should be avoided imo. Starting Vault should be something you build with care and finesse, not just take all the cards you can grab and later convert half of them.

One easy solution would be to increase converting limit to 24.

Also I'd like to change converting rules so that you can somehow convert cards to any card of your element. This should of course be heavily limited. I'll have to think about it some more.

[kobisjeruk]

i think conversion should just stick to pillars/pendulums but at an increased limit (24 sounds good)

having conversion to any card (of <your> element, no matter how limited) takes away one aspect of war, intel
some people work hard figuring out the contents of their opponents vault and strategize(sp?) based on each round results...

[TimerClock14]

i think conversion should just stick to pillars/pendulums but at an increased limit (24 sounds good)

having conversion to any card (of <your> element, no matter how limited) takes away one aspect of war, intel
some people work hard figuring out the contents of their opponents vault and strategize(sp?) based on each round results...

i agree, this would make the role of strategist rather useless.

[Xinef]

The "exploit" is building your Vault so that it has zero Pillars and Pendulums, and then converting cards depending on who you have to face. It's not a huge game breaking exploit, but it is silly and should be avoided imo. Starting Vault should be something you build with care and finesse, not just take all the cards you can grab and later convert half of them.

One easy solution would be to increase converting limit to 24.

Also I'd like to change converting rules so that you can somehow convert cards to any card of your element. This should of course be heavily limited. I'll have to think about it some more.

I'm pretty sure every team that would design their vault without thought and finesse would still be at a big disadvantage against teams that design their vaults right. Also, after 1 round of 'utter chaos' all vaults would have roughly 15*number_of_players pillars/pendulums, and all vaults would lose much of that flexibility.

In fact if eg. your team faces 4 opponents from one element on round 1, and so you decide to convert cards that are useless against that element and keep a lot of cards that are strong against that element, that would severely affect all the future rounds and could prove to be a really bad decision. Especially since round 1 is salvage 6 discard 6.



As for conversion into any card of your element, I can think of one kind of limit - only spells can be converted into spells, only weapons can be converted into weapons, only shields into shields, only 'other permanents' into 'other permanents', and for creatures, we might split it into 'cheap creatures' (cost <5), 'medium creatures' (cost <10) and 'big creatures' (aka dragons).

And I don't think it would make intelligence useless, since mono decks are really rare and as I've seen most teams prefer relying heavily on off-element cards to surprise opponent. Probably in-element conversion would make mono decks a bit more popular, but that would of course come at a price that such decks would be easily countered often.

Generally intel stays almost the same. It's still "they have at most that much of that card" and "they probably don't have that card". The only difference would be that in-element cards would be harder to track this way.

[QuantumT]

I'm pretty sure every team that would design their vault without thought and finesse would still be at a big disadvantage against teams that design their vaults right. Also, after 1 round of 'utter chaos' all vaults would have roughly 15*number_of_players pillars/pendulums, and all vaults would lose much of that flexibility.

If I had unlimited conversion, it would always be in my best interest to discard my pillars/pendulums first. So a large portion of that flexibility will remain for the first 4 rounds, until losing means discarding the entire deck.

[Xinef]

If I had unlimited conversion, it would always be in my best interest to discard my pillars/pendulums first. So a large portion of that flexibility will remain for the first 4 rounds, until losing means discarding the entire deck.

With 24 card conversion for example, the same could be done as long as the number of discarded cards doesn't exceed 24... well, yeah, that's roughly 1 round.


I think there is a solution that solves the 'early' problems and the 'late game' problems.

Round 1: 6 card conversion limit.
Round 2: 12 card conversion limit.
Round 3: 18 card conversion limit.
Round 4: 24 card conversion limit.
...

It's kinda like war infrastructure being built during the war (or technology being improved), so that the longer the war, the more you can do with the resources you have... although you have fewer resources to play with
Applying the same limit to in-element conversions would help to make late game duels more interesting. A team is left with 30 cards and a single player playing? That would normally force them to play the same deck for a number of rounds (if they keep winning), but with in-element conversion they might change it into some mono deck, or a splash deck with 6 salvaged cards.

[Scaredgirl]

As for conversion into any card of your element, I can think of one kind of limit - only spells can be converted into spells, only weapons can be converted into weapons, only shields into shields, only 'other permanents' into 'other permanents', and for creatures, we might split it into 'cheap creatures' (cost <5), 'medium creatures' (cost <10) and 'big creatures' (aka dragons).

Believe it or not, I was thinking almost the same exact thing yesterday. Only difference was that I thought about having a system where the card has to cost the same or less in order for you to be able to convert. For example if I have a cost 10 dragon, I could convert it to any creature of my element that cost 0-10 quanta. I think that system would be slightly more simple than having small, medium and big.

I didn't get as far as dividing cards by category though. I think that's a good idea and could probably work.

I like the idea of being able to convert creatures to creatures because I think it fits the theme pretty well. Lets say I'm and I capture a Guardian Angel. I could then transform (convert) this creature to a Minor Vampire using my awesome aura of .

But like I said before, something like this should be heavily limited. For example being able to convert only 3 per turn. One other option would be to have Event Cards that enabled you to do so.

If I had unlimited conversion, it would always be in my best interest to discard my pillars/pendulums first. So a large portion of that flexibility will remain for the first 4 rounds, until losing means discarding the entire deck.

With 24 card conversion for example, the same could be done as long as the number of discarded cards doesn't exceed 24... well, yeah, that's roughly 1 round.


I think there is a solution that solves the 'early' problems and the 'late game' problems.

Round 1: 6 card conversion limit.
Round 2: 12 card conversion limit.
Round 3: 18 card conversion limit.
Round 4: 24 card conversion limit.
...

It's kinda like war infrastructure being built during the war (or technology being improved), so that the longer the war, the more you can do with the resources you have... although you have fewer resources to play with
Applying the same limit to in-element conversions would help to make late game duels more interesting. A team is left with 30 cards and a single player playing? That would normally force them to play the same deck for a number of rounds (if they keep winning), but with in-element conversion they might change it into some mono deck, or a splash deck with 6 salvaged cards.

Yes, this could work. It makes sense and goes hand-in-hand with discarding.

[Daxx]

One other option would be to have Event Cards that enabled you to do so.

This genuinely sounds like the best solution. Making the War Rules more complicated sounds like a recipe for headaches all round. The simpler the rule-set, the more accessible the event and the less work everyone has to do. Throwing one-off rule changes into event cards means that there is less to keep track of, meaning less work for everyone involved, whilst still keeping the "cool factor" of the creature metamorphosis.

[fenix2011]

Seeing as demand/interest in the war is pretty huge (just look at the number of people trying out)..

What about having 2 squads per element? Of say 6 or so?
Make them basically independent - separate vault, separate matches, wins/losses separate - but able obviously to share tactics and deck help to win the war for their element.

That way more people get to participate (I think 12 dedicated players would not be such a stretch.. by next war I assume interest will have grown again)
Also with 12 players all supporting the same element, if someone has to be away for a week due to 'real life' then there are a lot of players to help out and get things organised.

I would guess the easiest way would be to have inside the secret section
Squad A
Squad B
Strategy ect
Fix your own squad then help the others kind of deal?

Could even have different rules (more upped?) for the different squads.
Give those more experienced players (in Squad A) a proper end-game event?

For example:
Squad A
General (6 upped own element, +6 others)
Lieutenant (3 upped own element, + 3 others
The Rest (3 upped own element)

Squad B
General (+6 others)
Lieutenant (+ 3 others
The Rest

Just because I think war is one of the best events on the forum.. and really I think 2 squads of 12 isn't a push considering current activity..

Theoretically you could have trade between them, which could be nice too.. (but is not necessary..)

[TheonlyrealBeef]

It would be nice if somehow the huge upgraded cardpool of several players that got bid on quite highly last auction could actually be put to use, but without too much hurting the balance. Upgraded cards allow for epic matches, but I understand how accessibility would suffer. So it would be nice if you could somehow use upgraded cards, but suffer a disadvantage at the same time, it might serve best as an event card as I've suggested before though. It just itches to see slow battles that could be sped up by upgrading (or a devourer swarm dying by rain of fire...)

[Skydaemon]

It would be nice if somehow the huge upgraded cardpool of several players that got bid on quite highly last auction could actually be put to use, but without too much hurting the balance. Upgraded cards allow for epic matches, but I understand how accessibility would suffer. So it would be nice if you could somehow use upgraded cards, but suffer a disadvantage at the same time, it might serve best as an event card as I've suggested before though. It just itches to see slow battles that could be sped up by upgrading (or a devourer swarm dying by rain of fire...)

I like that idea although I don't have anywhere near the number of upped cards that some others do.  I think in order to discourage overuse, you might want to make the penalty steep.  Howabout, for every upped card you use, your team has to discard 1 card from your vault whether you win or lose.  You buy uses of upped cards when it's strategic to do so.

So, in round 4, if you think 5 upped cards will buy you a win, you might be willing to pay the 5 cards to get a win, and avoid the 24 card penalty (and gain the 6 card salvage).

[TheonlyrealBeef]

It would be nice if somehow the huge upgraded cardpool of several players that got bid on quite highly last auction could actually be put to use, but without too much hurting the balance. Upgraded cards allow for epic matches, but I understand how accessibility would suffer. So it would be nice if you could somehow use upgraded cards, but suffer a disadvantage at the same time, it might serve best as an event card as I've suggested before though. It just itches to see slow battles that could be sped up by upgrading (or a devourer swarm dying by rain of fire...)

I like that idea although I don't have anywhere near the number of upped cards that some others do.  I think in order to discourage overuse, you might want to make the penalty steep.  Howabout, for every upped card you use, your team has to discard 1 card from your vault whether you win or lose.  You buy uses of upped cards when it's strategic to do so.

So, in round 4, if you think 5 upped cards will buy you a win, you might be willing to pay the 5 cards to get a win, and avoid the 24 card penalty (and gain the 6 card salvage).

Before you remove them directly from the vault (to remove nonsense cards strategically) it would make more sense to substract them from your own salvaging and add them to your opponent's salvaging. That way your opponent is also rewarded for beating a stronger opponent (with more upgrades).