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Offline Aves

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1215418#msg1215418
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2015, 12:55:01 am »
I feel like there is a bit less spirit in this war compared to what vague things I remember from #4, whether it's less active teams or not having official propaganda; remember when there were things like this? While there are still people writing funny and awesome things (props to RR, Discord, and others!) I think it would be cool if we had a few more official non-match oriented events/outlets the next time this comes around.

I understand that a lot of that is now more of a "Brawl" type thing, but I feel that it wouldn't hurt to keep some extra things in War. If not in terms of concrete upgrade/salvage/relic advantages (though those would be cool too), maybe extra "spirit points" or "kudos" for best match in a round, best deck of a round, best story, or something-- and the team with the most by the end gets a special mention. These are just random ideas I'm throwing out; the gist of it is that I think we need more official mechanics promoting team/element spirit/enthusiasm.   

If you agree, post some other ideas!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 12:56:43 am by Aves »
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Offline Zawadx

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1215729#msg1215729
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2015, 06:34:49 am »
One of the things that you guys have miss out with Boosts are the old ECs which gave a new role to work with. I have a few ideas for them, and other ECs too:

You could implement extra roles as another Soldier boost, or perhaps as a fixed position. Maybe make them temporary replacements/boosts for Lt, giving a better chance to teams with less than full rosters?

EC: Pioneer/Buccaneer - "Will you embark on a grand quest to discover a relic to turn the tide of war? Or perhaps switch to the other side of the Law to steal from the enemy?"
Pioneer: 3/6 card sideboard. If you win, gain 3 relics.
Buccaneer: 3/6 card sideboard. If you win, increase Salvage by 5 and decrease Discard by 5.

EC: Antificier - "The ability to make the most off scraps is crucial to win any battle."
Antificier: May use upto 6 cards which are being discarded from previous rounds. These are treated as virtual cards, like pillars.

EC: Arena Warfare - "In the midst of war, no land remains sacred. The carnage has now spilled to the hallowed Arena grounds, as the warriors harness the powers within the Colosseum."
Replace soldier boosts with the following amplified ones:
Bronze: You may use a 15 card sideboard.
Silver: You may build a deck with no elemental restrictions. If you win, you may salvage from your own deck.
Gold: If you win, gain 2 relics for each game win you have more than game losses (3-0=6 relics, 3-1=4 relics and 3-2= 2 relics)
Platinum: You may use up to 10 more upgrades. For each game you lose, increase your discards by 3.

EC: Two fronts - "All was quite on the Western Front. All hell broke lose on the others tho."
This was originally a one-player role, but it could be two player too. It'd be harder to implement, but imagine the awesomeness of co-op udeling in War!
Two fronts: You may use two decks. Chose any one of the deck to play before each game.

(From here on be ECs without new roles, but still interesting for standard)

EC: City of Alchemy
After this round, you may transmute into any element at a 1:1 ratio. (Helps war recovery without slowing down war!)

EC: Ominous Ruins
You may transmute your salvage into relics at a 1:1 ratio. Discards are increased to 20.

EC: Pitched Warfare (This is mathematically balanced, but still introduces an interesting dynamic to the matches)
During a match, the team higher in standings may restart the first game if they chose to do so. The team lower in standings may chose to restart one game if they have lost 2-3. (The theme is, the team higher up in standings gets the wing and ground advantage before the battle. But if it's a closely contested battle, the sense of heroics rise in lower team and they get a second win to drive enemy back).

EC: Trench Warfare
If a game ends before 8 turns, increase Salvage by 2. If a game ends after 20 turns, increase Discards by 3. (A fast end to trench warfare boosts soldier morale, but if it drags on a lot of lives will be lost of the conditions in the Trench)

EC: Siege Warfare
During a match, the team higher in standings may use a sideboard of upto 3 cards. The team lower in standings may use upto 2 extra upgrades. (During a siege, attackers amass a stronger force but defenders have the versatility of the Castle)

Hope these can give some ideas for ECs, in this war or future ones!

btw, this war we've had a few ECs that couldn't fully explain their effect within the Card itself. So one had to read the text to really get the card. Why no make this the standard for every EC? The card could include flavor text, and the explaination of EC's effect would be given clearly below.
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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221124#msg1221124
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2016, 12:28:26 am »
Vaults before r16: 211:72=2.93:1
Decks in r16: 5:5 = 1:1, MAYBE 5:4=1.25:1

How was it thought for a moment this was remotely fair? Elementary school math shows it isn't.
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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221127#msg1221127
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2016, 12:53:08 am »
Darkness, how many decks can you run with your 211 cards?
Dunno, about 10 great ones. 12 at a push

Air, how many decks can you make with 72 cards?
5.

When did we burn half of Darkness's vault?
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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221128#msg1221128
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2016, 12:55:02 am »
[2016-01-15 23:28:01] CuCN [»] worldwideweb3: anyway, if you choose this idea, you also have to determine how many decks each team builds, and what upgrades/boosts they can use
[2016-01-15 23:29:26] worldwideweb3 [»] CuCN: darkness 5, air 2?
[2016-01-15 23:29:54] CuCN [»] worldwideweb3: that's a possibility
[2016-01-15 23:31:11] CuCN [»] worldwideweb3: other possibility could just be "as many as you want/can build"
[2016-01-15 23:31:32] CuCN [»] worldwideweb3: with some restrictions, or a maximum
[2016-01-15 23:31:57] worldwideweb3 [»] CuCN: yh, otherwise darkness will build a lot of decks
[2016-01-15 23:32:35] CuCN [»] worldwideweb3: yeah, maybe just up to 5 for each
[2016-01-15 23:33:25] CuCN [»] worldwideweb3: air could try to build more decks to spread their chances, or decide to focus their vault on two
[2016-01-15 23:33:53] worldwideweb3 [»] CuCN: yes, probably 5 each is better

This is the entire extent of my discussion with www about the number of decks while planning the EC. The line in bold is where I made a huge mistake and figured based on the decks table that Air would only have 2 or 3 decks.

Offline Submachine

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221184#msg1221184
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2016, 07:45:56 pm »
A fair-looking suggestion. Might need enhancing:

The concept for current round's event card has to meet the 2 following criteria:
  • Make it sure that War ends this round with 100% success.
  • Maintain each team's winning chances. Maybe give a minor 5% extra comeback chance for Air.

Considering the first condition, the current event card would be the first that comes to my mind. It's not late to modify it to fit to the second though. Let's say, before this round started, if Darkness had a vault of 211 and Air had 74, then their available decks should follow the 74:211 ratio, which is approximately 1/3.

So I think allowing Air to field 3 decks, and Darkness to field 9 decks, while allowing to use any of those decks and engaging in a final Bo5 - would solve the problem.
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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221187#msg1221187
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2016, 08:15:20 pm »
A fair-looking suggestion. Might need enhancing:

The concept for current round's event card has to meet the 2 following criteria:
  • Make it sure that War ends this round with 100% success.
  • Maintain each team's winning chances. Maybe give a minor 5% extra comeback chance for Air.

Considering the first condition, the current event card would be the first that comes to my mind. It's not late to modify it to fit to the second though. Let's say, before this round started, if Darkness had a vault of 211 and Air had 74, then their available decks should follow the 74:211 ratio, which is approximately 1/3.

So I think allowing Air to field 3 decks, and Darkness to field 9 decks, while allowing to use any of those decks and engaging in a final Bo5 - would solve the problem.

Thanks for trying to help submachine.. but no

1st... after all the effort doing this deckbuilding and match-up a re-do would be ridiculous to ask from us (both teams since I'm sure darkness did some work too).
2nd ... darkness now know pretty much all our vault and how we tried to counter what they had, we couldn't redo that with those cards so it is not even worthy of playing the matches.
3rd ... rng gave us at least a victory with roger maybe 2 in my match... it would not likely happen again.
4th... this matches should come to an end today or tomorrow at worse, please wait until the end to jump to conclusions on the fairness of the final even though  I know it looks hard with us leading 3-2.. you can fully expect Darkness to have 2 of they're strongest decks left.

That said, every time there was an event to end war, it always looks ugly... it was when they made a mini-tournament, it was when they threw all vaults away to keep  roughly 1/4th of it, it is now... the suggestion here is there should have been a round mid war when we see this was getting long that looks like... If you lose, remove 10 extra cards from vault.. with 30 matches, it's 300 cards spreaded so it would have saved a couple of rounds.  This is just an idea, it could have been made in tons of ways... but more cards needed to be removed along the way, but this is for next war.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 08:21:08 pm by mrpaper »

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221189#msg1221189
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2016, 08:36:45 pm »
EC fair or unfair... well nevermind now, the fact is if both team agreed without resistence with this, then all is ok, good luck and have fun.
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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221190#msg1221190
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2016, 08:55:01 pm »
We might as well play out the remaining matches at this point. Agreed on that.

@1 & 2: Yes, we did try to predict what air had in vault. If I remember right it came down to something like 20 cards unknown out of 74 at the end of R15. I'm sure that Air has also done its own analysis on our vault. If an alternate EC is proposed, to avoid the vault-prediction I'd suggest simply liquefying all of the cards from the end of R16 prep back into points, and then re-buying them just as in vault-building. Of course, that'd bring its own set of problems, including nullifying most of the predictive power of our last 15 rounds...

@4, while I do agree that at this point we should just play it out, the conclusion doesn't matter in determining the fairness of the EC-- the outcome is not what makes the EC fair or not. What the EC did was say, Darkness, cut your vault in half. Air, keep all of yours. Now go play. I don't think you can really argue that the EC isn't unfair, win OR lose.

With regards to the event not eliminating teams fast enough, pillars not being counted in vault probably had a pretty big effect on this, with people not being used to the new ratio of cards to deck. If they keep that particular feature for next time, I certainly hope it's fine-tuned.

WMs, I don't think I've seen you guys respond yet. What's your take on this?

Edit: Yes, both teams are still playing the matches out. That doesn't mean that we agree with the EC.
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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221192#msg1221192
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2016, 09:11:04 pm »


@4, while I do agree that at this point we should just play it out, the conclusion doesn't matter in determining the fairness of the EC-- the outcome is not what makes the EC fair or not. What the EC did was say, Darkness, cut your vault in half. Air, keep all of yours. Now go play. I don't think you can really argue that the EC isn't unfair, win OR lose.


Edit: Yes, both teams are still playing the matches out. That doesn't mean that we agree with the EC.
I agree with you a lot here, but what I mean, if it were to have complaints that should be before, playing and losing only to then complain, this is fair? don't did complaints before start R16, complain or drama now is pretty ungly I guess
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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221194#msg1221194
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2016, 09:24:57 pm »


@4, while I do agree that at this point we should just play it out, the conclusion doesn't matter in determining the fairness of the EC-- the outcome is not what makes the EC fair or not. What the EC did was say, Darkness, cut your vault in half. Air, keep all of yours. Now go play. I don't think you can really argue that the EC isn't unfair, win OR lose.


Edit: Yes, both teams are still playing the matches out. That doesn't mean that we agree with the EC.
I agree with you a lot here, but what I mean, if it were to have complaints that should be before, playing and losing only to then complain, this is fair? don't did complaints before start R16, complain or drama now is pretty ungly I guess

Just because complaints weren't made publicly doesn't mean that didn't exist.

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221197#msg1221197
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2016, 09:54:10 pm »


@4, while I do agree that at this point we should just play it out, the conclusion doesn't matter in determining the fairness of the EC-- the outcome is not what makes the EC fair or not. What the EC did was say, Darkness, cut your vault in half. Air, keep all of yours. Now go play. I don't think you can really argue that the EC isn't unfair, win OR lose.


Edit: Yes, both teams are still playing the matches out. That doesn't mean that we agree with the EC.
I agree with you a lot here, but what I mean, if it were to have complaints that should be before, playing and losing only to then complain, this is fair? don't did complaints before start R16, complain or drama now is pretty ungly I guess

 Just because complaints weren't made publicly doesn't mean that didn't exist.
Well that is true... was beacuse I saw Undeadspider of team :aether do one complaint and no one of :darkness, but if  :darkness did in off publicly the things are different...
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