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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1206520#msg1206520
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2015, 09:18:16 pm »
tinkerer (your pillars and pendulums become target element for this match, so your deck is still technically legal and you must use your team's own mark)

So this allows us to build decks with less than 50% in-element? Something like this is eligible for aether?:

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 623 623 623 8pu


This is legal for tinkerer.
Tbh I think this tinkerer is to powerfull. It makes you able to make a mono from any element, makes predicting impossible. Every team will be able to field 1 mono aether every round.

Are the boosts divided like this?
Spoiler for Hidden:
  • 2 extra upgrades + extra salvage (+2) + reduced discard (-2)
  • tinkerer (your pillars and pendulums become target element for this match, so your deck is still technically legal and you must use your team's own mark. This doesnt work with QP's QT's.)
  • Sideboard of 3 cards - The first game must be played with the full deck. Before each match you must import the deck from vault tool. After the first game, you may remove (up to) 3 cards after importing
  • mercenary (your deck only needs to be 40% in element)
  • Gambler - bet the scoreline on this deck. If the scoreline is right, you win 2 relics.
I think that sideboard should work like this:
"You submit a deck of X cards. Before any of your games you're allowed to removed up to 3 cards from your deck."
I also think 3 is a bit low, 4 or 5 would be more useful.

I think gambler should give more relics if you compare it to the first boosts,+ it's not easy to guess with 6 different outcomes.

Besides that the rules are fine.
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Offline SpikeSpiegel

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1206527#msg1206527
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2015, 10:50:24 pm »
I don't like tinkerer as well. Not because it can be so powerful, but because it could kill war essence.

War is an event played by teams representing each element, where players have to exploit the strengths of each element, to exploit new original deck solutions, etc.

Tinkerer would kill this.

Let's make an example: :time has a sinergy with graboids, that are powerful creatures; but to use a graboid rush, :time has to use pendulums to respect the 50%-in element rule, forcing :time team to balance that deck.

In this war, a :time tinkerer would be able to use a mono :earth, using just :time as mark.

An element able to use a monodeck of another element, imo is against war spirit.

It's something I'd like to avoid to see again in war.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 10:52:54 pm by SpikeSpiegel »
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Offline JonathanCrazyJ

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1206529#msg1206529
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2015, 10:54:52 pm »
The positive about Tinkerer is that it works well with the lack of pillars/pends in Vault. To keep under the 50% in element, Tinkerer use is restricted to a few decks. I really like it as a way to slightly affect War meta, especially as only one can be used per round.

Disclaimer: I like it in this war, but its application should be heavily monitored to see how it really affects things.
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Offline Helston

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1206584#msg1206584
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2015, 11:48:26 am »
I really like the idea of tinkerer, especially now there's shards. Without tinkerer, it's exceedingly difficult for Life (and somewhat Darkness) to really use their shard and get the in-element mark bonus.

That said, I'm not a fan of that Fire/Aether deck being legal for Aether. I believe it should only count pendulums e.g.


Spoiler for legal deck:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 623 623 623 8pu

Spoiler for illegal deck:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
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5f0 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 623 623 623 8pu
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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1207025#msg1207025
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2015, 12:46:13 am »
I really like the idea of tinkerer, especially now there's shards. Without tinkerer, it's exceedingly difficult for Life (and somewhat Darkness) to really use their shard and get the in-element mark bonus.

That said, I'm not a fan of that Fire/Aether deck being legal for Aether. I believe it should only count pendulums e.g.


Spoiler for legal deck:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 623 623 623 8pu

Spoiler for illegal deck:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5f0 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 623 623 623 8pu

+1 for this opinion!
 :light shard also benefits from using  :light mark, so I think it is a great idea to allow flipping mark and pends, but there is no reason to count use of out-of-element pillars as in-element. So the tinkerer would work perfectly well if it only allowed to use other pends with in-element mark.
In fact that would open up the possibility for using more trios as well, without allowing off-element monos.
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Offline JonathanCrazyJ

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1207029#msg1207029
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2015, 12:52:30 am »
Sadly this can't be changed now, as people may have built their vaults assuming the inclusion of pillars.
I think that that is the better balance in principal, though really it doesn't matter toooo much.
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Offline Vangelios

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1207044#msg1207044
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2015, 02:29:46 am »
I like of pillar free system
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Offline Blacksmith

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1207131#msg1207131
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2015, 09:03:02 pm »
I really like the idea of tinkerer, especially now there's shards. Without tinkerer, it's exceedingly difficult for Life (and somewhat Darkness) to really use their shard and get the in-element mark bonus.

That said, I'm not a fan of that Fire/Aether deck being legal for Aether. I believe it should only count pendulums e.g.


Spoiler for legal deck:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 623 623 623 8pu

Spoiler for illegal deck:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5f0 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5f3 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 623 623 623 8pu

+1 for this opinion!
 :light shard also benefits from using  :light mark, so I think it is a great idea to allow flipping mark and pends, but there is no reason to count use of out-of-element pillars as in-element. So the tinkerer would work perfectly well if it only allowed to use other pends with in-element mark.
In fact that would open up the possibility for using more trios as well, without allowing off-element monos.
I agree. Tinkerer would be fine if it only included pends and not marks and pillars.

Sadly this can't be changed now, as people may have built their vaults assuming the inclusion of pillars.
I think that that is the better balance in principal, though really it doesn't matter toooo much.
I think it's sad that any team can play any mono every round and that predicting becomes harder.+ the things spike said. And I don't think it's to late to change this, it's not a much bigger change than a EC card.
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Offline Vangelios

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1207136#msg1207136
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2015, 09:43:02 pm »
I don't like tinkerer as well. Not because it can be so powerful, but because it could kill war essence.
+1, now :fire can do one :air nymph deck and even continues like :fire, oh well....
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Offline Newbiecake

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1207138#msg1207138
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2015, 10:03:32 pm »
And I don't think it's to late to change this, it's not a much bigger change than a EC card.
At the risk of sounding dogmatic, it kind of is too late to change this, considering that all teams have built decks with the inclusion of pillars. This would set multiple teams back several days to rebuild the vault; we certainly don't want that considering how long this is dragging out already.

I think it's sad that any team can play any mono every round and that predicting becomes harder.+ the things spike said.
"Tinkerer makes mindgating harder" is a gross exaggeration. There are only so many tinkerer decks you can make with the limited amount of strong cards you can buy with the new market system. In fact, I can guarantee you most teams won't have more than 1 or 2 tinkerer decks that deviate from what they usually play. It's basically the same as the first few rounds of every War; nobody knows what to mindgate yet. That's why you see teams such as  :life go 5-1 in round 1 of last War, but sadly because of their element's lack of arsenal of useful tools, they were easily mindgated and beaten out. It's the same with tinkerer decks. Once the first three round or so passes, it's only a matter of mindgating which team a particular team will send their tinkerer deck(s) against, just like any other non-tinkerer decks.

I don't like tinkerer as well. Not because it can be so powerful, but because it could kill war essence.

War is an event played by teams representing each element, where players have to exploit the strengths of each element, to exploit new original deck solutions, etc.

Tinkerer would kill this.

Let's make an example: :time has a sinergy with graboids, that are powerful creatures; but to use a graboid rush, :time has to use pendulums to respect the 50%-in element rule, forcing :time team to balance that deck.

In this war, a :time tinkerer would be able to use a mono :earth, using just :time as mark.

An element able to use a monodeck of another element, imo is against war spirit.

It's something I'd like to avoid to see again in war.
Tinkerer imo allows certain teams to build really creative decks, not just monos. Normally I'd agree with you b/c mono Aethers are really darn annoying, but this War in particular they aren't going to be as detrimental, as there are tons of new deck possibilities to counter Dim Shields (just an example) with the addition of Shards. Meanwhile, teams can still build tinkerer decks as specific counters to certain decks. My team, for one, have utilized tinkerer to open up new possibilities that our element + the element(s) we borrow wouldn't be able to build otherwise without tinkerer. If you choose to build tinkerer decks like an  :earth Grabbow as team  :time, that's your choice, but not every element will resort to such tactics or have the ability to do so. :P An example of such a deck is this; my team decided against it as we didn't have enough points to buy it:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vg 4vg 4vg 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 592 592 5ia 5if 5p0 5p0 6u3 6u3 7ms 7ng 7oe 7tb 80h 8pr


This is only my 2  :electrum; please feel free to disagree. Just thought I'd defend tinkerer a little and make apparent of the merits and flavour it adds to War.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 03:48:20 am by Newbiecake »
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Offline Avenger

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1207165#msg1207165
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2015, 07:15:37 am »
This war introduced too many changes, if it fails, we won't know for sure what caused it. On the other hand, if it succeeds, we'll have lots of new standard features.

Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1209457#msg1209457
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2015, 10:58:32 pm »
Proposed update to naming convention of the roles.  This will facilitate easier Battle Result post titles, and cool names are better than trying to describe the effect.

SuperSoldier - 2 extra upgrades
Tracker - extra salvage (+2)
Medic - reduced discard (-2)
Tinkerer - your pillars and pendulums become target element for this match, so your deck is still technically legal and you must use your team's own mark. This doesn't work with QP's QT's
Scientist - Sideboard of 3 cards - The first game must be played with the full deck. Before each match you must import the deck from vault tool. After the first game, you may remove (up to) 3 cards after importing
Mercenary - your deck only needs to be 40% in element
Gambler - bet the scoreline on this deck. If the scoreline is right, you win 2 relics.

also noting "scoreline" was spelled wrong and "doesnt" was missing an apostrophe.
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