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Offline Lastmerlin

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221409#msg1221409
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2016, 09:43:46 am »
Regarding the last EC: it was not about to pass through the filter that is me. www and I managed to work out a mostly fair outcome that changed the EC completely if needed. It kept in mind that Air played according to the rules and would've won that round fairly if they did, and that meant we had to reward them in some way at least. Just not by destroying Darkness' vault completely. As long as I'm around, we won't have a repeat of War 4.

Just for curiosity: May I know, what you would have done if Air had won the last game? Seeing the matchup, it seems hardly possible (the drainbolt looks like quite a counter to the bonewalls), but RNG can do almost everything ;) . Now you have a 5-4 round for Air - what now?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 12:08:57 pm by Lastmerlin »

Offline RapidStar_

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221412#msg1221412
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2016, 10:28:58 am »
Suggestion for a Boost:
Risk-Taker: If you win with this deck, your team gets double salvage for this round, but if you lose your team plays with -4 upgrades for each deck the next round.

Offline Afdarenty

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221413#msg1221413
« Reply #98 on: January 28, 2016, 10:44:25 am »
A note on market prices: the values were based on the cards' power in use by _all_ teams.

For cards like Wyrms, or Gargoyles, or Phoenixes, or Mummies, or Chargers, etc, their price is still dependent on the performance of one team in the previous war.

On Tinkerer: estimate of power the role would've had if it was only "Pends count as in element" rather than Pillars? The real motive behind wanting pends to count is so we can have trio decks such as grabghostmare (mark of time, earth pends, darkness pends)

I agree with others here - forcing Tinkerer decks to use 7 or 8 in element cards would let teams build trio decks if they wanted to, and stop Teams running near mono decks of other elements.



One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is the bye rule. Right now, the team ranked in 1st place gets a bye before others. I feel like byes would have much less impact on the final result of war if byes went to the last place team before others.

Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1221417#msg1221417
« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2016, 01:38:44 pm »
A note on market prices: the values were based on the cards' power in use by _all_ teams.

For cards like Wyrms, or Gargoyles, or Phoenixes, or Mummies, or Chargers, etc, their price is still dependent on the performance of one team in the previous war.

On Tinkerer: estimate of power the role would've had if it was only "Pends count as in element" rather than Pillars? The real motive behind wanting pends to count is so we can have trio decks such as grabghostmare (mark of time, earth pends, darkness pends)

I agree with others here - forcing Tinkerer decks to use 7 or 8 in element cards would let teams build trio decks if they wanted to, and stop Teams running near mono decks of other elements.



One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is the bye rule. Right now, the team ranked in 1st place gets a bye before others. I feel like byes would have much less impact on the final result of war if byes went to the last place team before others.

-I love the market but yeah some prices needs to be adjust for fairness over other cards, from the results of this war as well, but also in an element global cost as a whole too aka gravity was too cheap and light too pricey, so maybe adjust some cards that we're only (or almost) use by it's own element.  For instance, archangel price going down a bit would likely not affect other teams as they won't pick it anyway but it's great for light.  Also, not only ratio of wins it has but maybe how much it was used might affect the price?  For example, salvaging novas are so easy because it's in every team vault, if you upped it's price (10-25%) because it is always tempting to have, some teams will pass and we will see new cards and decks!  Of course, don't put it too high and make decks unplayable though!

- You can't give bye to last place team as it will likely mean the team that deserve to finish last will gain a few spots before dying and a team may want to lose the last match in a round to get a bye...  On the other hand, having a bye by 1st place when it is supposed to play 5 decks and other teams only plays a few is perfectly fine, but otherwise it will just increase the lead they have.  Maybe a simple rng (keeping the fact you can't have a bye twice unless all teams still alive did)?  Also, a bye could come with some small penalty to make it less appealing such as you get no salvage from one of ure wins, you discard 4 cards from ure vault (you're choice), etc.  Remember that while this ain't such fun to remove a few cards from vault, it is still way less risky then having 50% to lose a deck (which is what happen when we are at the stage of byes).     

Also, for the discard part.. As some teams gets destroyed when they lose with a deck, I would suggest keeping discard at 15 from the deck at later rounds, but make it a total of 18... aka 15 from the deck and 3 from the vault (or the rest of the deck if you prefer). It can even start at 1 from the vault in rd 1, 2 in rd 2 and 3 in the other rounds.  For the most part it means removing spare parts you no longer can/want to use and also helps teams  saving key cards. 

**Also important, something that wasn't taken care of this war, some teams gets juicy savage (from own element) all the time and some never do.  Aka, few people use cards from life but it is also true of a few other elements as well, who would sent light stall to beat light?  Salvage should be:  If you didn't face any in-element card (face not beat), you can switch up to 4 cards from a salvage to in elements cards (excluding shards?).  You wouldn't need to transmute for it and be penalized cause your'e element doesn't mesh well with others or isn't tempting to be sent against you.  I think this would help a bit all the teams that have fared poorly this war.

And also agree on afda on auction.. it's great but don't try to get everyone in as it makes crazy prices for average players and we always might get stuck with not enough people in the end which would prevent the whole event from starting for a while.

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1236946#msg1236946
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2016, 05:34:48 am »
I don't know if it's too late to suggest for this war, or if it would have to wait for the next, but what about the following change for substitutions in War:  (feel free to discuss/comment/rip me to shreds)

Firstly, the current rule is that when substituting, a player has to be able to build the deck from their own collection.  This sometimes creates a situation where marks or nymphs or, much less commonly, rares or upgrades are in the deck that the player making the substitution does not own.

My suggestion is that when substituting, you can replace a card with a relic if you don't have it in your collection.  (or perhaps something ridiculously unplayable if the player has no relics, and then never plays the card even if they somehow can from insane discords/stolen pillars/etc; i.e. crimson dragon in monodarkness instead of a black nymph that the player doesn't own)

I'm not sure how often it's come up that a player wants to substitute but cannot because of the current rule, or how often generals are scared to put marks or nymphs into someone's deck for fear that nobody else on the team can sub if something happens, and that's part of what I want to see in the feedback for this suggestion.  On one side, it seems silly to worry about a deck being unplayable by the rest of the team; on the other hand, it can help balance those crazy 6 blue nymph or 6 time nymph decks or whatever, by making them harder to substitute for.

In case anyone accuses me of bias since I've been around for years, I'll mention I have lots of nymphs (at least 2 of each), and I'm not sure whether changing the rule to match my suggestion would help or hurt me overall, but I think it would probably help any team I was on, so I'll leave that out to consider as well.

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1236965#msg1236965
« Reply #101 on: July 05, 2016, 03:54:32 pm »
My suggestion is that when substituting, you can replace a card with a relic if you don't have it in your collection.  (or perhaps something ridiculously unplayable if the player has no relics, and then never plays the card even if they somehow can from insane discords/stolen pillars/etc; i.e. crimson dragon in monodarkness instead of a black nymph that the player doesn't own)

For what it's worth, relics for unavailable cards used to be precedent, based on a ruling I made in War 2. The rule you mention was made to prevent putting marks and nymphs into a deck of a player without them, meant to be subbed, but I don't see a reason to prevent the reverse and a rule like this would be better.
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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1236978#msg1236978
« Reply #102 on: July 05, 2016, 06:40:40 pm »
playing a pillar instead of a mark card is the most common thing.... and you have a small disadvantage already... why make it harder?  You are only tempting team to not put mark cards in case there needs to be a sub....
as for nymph and rare... I'm open to change if needed be but I tought it was fine.

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1237002#msg1237002
« Reply #103 on: July 06, 2016, 01:32:04 am »
playing a pillar instead of a mark card is the most common thing.... and you have a small disadvantage already... why make it harder?  You are only tempting team to not put mark cards in case there needs to be a sub....

I do agree with pillars for mark cards. I was mostly speaking about nymphs and other rares.
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1237006#msg1237006
« Reply #104 on: July 06, 2016, 04:40:27 am »
Just to clarify, since I'm not sure I explained myself properly, based on a few comments above, if I was supposed to use this deck in War (just the current deck I had loaded with 2 marks, a dagger, and 2 nymphs for later illustration)

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4sj 4sj 4t3 6ug 6ug 77k 77k 77k 77k 77k 77k 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 7k0 7k0 7k0 7k0 7k0 7k0 7k2 7k2 7k2 7k2 7k2 7k2 7km 7km 7km 7km 7km 7km 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 8pq


Now, on my team, I am unable to play my match with this deck because I am in Oslo being awarded my Nobel Prizes for the year, so my teammate hUg3s+n00b agrees to substitute.  hUg3s+n00b does not have entropy marks, upped purple nymphs, or daggers (he can't figure out how to buy daggers, because he's a n00b, but he has the upgraded cards for some reason :p) and so he adds five relics in place of those five cards he doesn't have.

Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1237025#msg1237025
« Reply #105 on: July 06, 2016, 01:36:38 pm »
Dragons... this seems like a bad idea because you could see someone not trying hard to face you knowing you have a strong pool of cards.... only to force you to be subbed by a noob in the last day (as so many matches are done the last all the time anyway).. hoping this would make you're deck weaker.... and it sure does the way you offers things!

I don't know the best solution to replace a missing card (dagger here) quanta card? relic? unnupped version when that is the problem?  But pillar instead of mark is fair and unupped instead of upped for nymph works as well.  Imagine this happens somewhere late in war with 3 teams left.. and the proposed change you gave we're vs the leading team who would have lost to this deck otherwise.. how would the people in the 3rd team feel? I'd be mad to see my shot at winning war is going way slimmer because of a hard sub rule.  Also, this is not how I would want to win being on the leading team and of course I would not be too happy if I was forced to be the one using such a weaker version of the deck because you had this unimportant thing to attend :P

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1237030#msg1237030
« Reply #106 on: July 06, 2016, 02:57:20 pm »
i think being allowed to replace any un-owned card with quanta seems fair. makes it weaker, most likely over-quantaed, but the deck still runs.
having to use relics = dead cards. nobody likes dead cards.
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Offline Afdarenty

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Re: War #9 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59204.msg1237032#msg1237032
« Reply #107 on: July 06, 2016, 03:17:32 pm »
i think being allowed to replace any un-owned card with quanta seems fair. makes it weaker, most likely over-quantaed, but the deck still runs.
having to use relics = dead cards. nobody likes dead cards.

Over quanta'd doesn't automatically mean weaker. In some cases (Nymphs vs Denial, weapons vs heavy PC, SoSac vs many purifies, etc) Pillars will be significantly stronger than the card they would be replacing.

Replacing Marks with Pillars is fine in my book - they're always going to be slightly inferior, barring a very unusual situation involving Nymph Queen/Tears. This was the system used last War. But replacing other cards with Pillars isn't a good idea, in my opinion. I could see it easily leading to abuse.

 

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