War #8 - Suggestions and Feedback

[Blacksmith]

How come masters who decides not to be generals aren't allowed to enter war?

[Vangelios]

Well I believe that masters can be only general or go out, makes sense just this Baron.

[ddevans96]

How come masters who decides not to be generals aren't allowed to enter war?

Because if you don't want to lead the element you chose to represent, then why should you be in War at all?

Elemental allegiance should mean something.

[Vangelios]

How come masters who decides not to be generals aren't allowed to enter war?

Because if you don't want to lead the element you chose to represent, then why should you be in War at all?

Elemental allegiance should mean something.

Exactly, I'm not going to represent fire because I don't like of the war format, however I'm very still faithful to my element.

[theelkspeaks]

How come masters who decides not to be generals aren't allowed to enter war?

Because if you don't want to lead the element you chose to represent, then why should you be in War at all?

Elemental allegiance should mean something.

I, for one, am ok with a Master who doesn't feel as though he/she is competent enough or experienced enough to General choosing to nominate one of the players they draft as General, at any time after they have drafted that player.  (Most likely their first pick).  I think there's widespread support for that option.

[ddevans96]

I also support that - I did poorly word that, apologies.

My issue is the idea of a Master applying for War and winding up on a different element's team.

[Vangelios]

I also support that - I did poorly word that, apologies.

My issue is the idea of a Master applying for War and winding up on a different element's team.

but same element's team is possible? because is a way to save bids if this is possible

[CCCombobreaker]

Copying my wall of text on the subject from here to

Spoiler for here:

As Trials is coming into it's FINAL stage, and Masters will soon be decided, I felt it important that we renew the discussion from last War that ended with several Masters sitting out War entirely.  As of last War, it was ruled Masters who do not General cannot participate in War (although this was not formally added to the rules?)

Spoiler for Hidden:

War will have 12 Generals, one for each element. Masters are the Generals of their element by default. If a Master is unable to join War, he or she will appoint a replacement General (Sr. Member or above). If one or more elements don't have a Master, a General will be picked by the Council.

I think that their are 2 major points of view in this discussion.
1) We need as many quality players in War as possible, so we shouldn't exclude Masters who don't want to be General from the event.
2) Being General of your element is one of the primary responsibilities of being a Master, it is abhorrent for a Master of one element to be a soldier on another element's team in War.

There was a lot of discussion and arguing between these two points of view, and the final decision to completely ignore point 1) (and perhaps also the arguing) generally left everyone feeling bad about what happened.  My first warning is that feeling bad about what happened to Marsu (and also justaburd to a lesser extend) is not a good reason to move directly from point 2) to point 1).

Last War I would say I was pretty squarely in camp 2, as War feels like the biggest event in Elements (to me) and so Masters (the face of an element) should not be abandoning their element and fighting for another.  You got to choose which Element you were Master of, you should not take that lightly.  As TrO I understand people have their own reasons for choosing the Elements they do Trials for, but ultimately you should know that there is a prestige and responsibility with the position of Master (should you win that title) and you ought to do your best to fulfill those responsibilities.

However, since last war (and in organizing Trials), there is quite a bit to be said for point 1).  We do need as many quality people in our "premier" events as possible, and excluding people on technicalities that would otherwise participate is wasteful and causes unnecessary tension.  So I am proposing a couple of reasonable compromises to handle the situation.  I am not a WM, and ultimately it falls on the WMs to make the decision they feel is best for War.  But I felt very strongly I should share these so that they will at least be considered, as I know you are making changes to the event at a number of levels.

There have been hints and whispers of the Auction being turned into a Draft.  So I will try to explain my possibilities in terms that apply to either a draft or an auction.  I will also note that these solutions are not as simple as "they can't join" or "they can join", this is because I believe there should be some cost associated with being Master but not General.  Also my possibilities all maintain that the non-General Master remains on their Elements team for War.  I understand not feeling ready to be General, or not having time to commit to being General, but if you can participate in War, you can be on the team you are Master of.  There is no compelling reason you can be in War but not on the team you represent as Master. 

Possibilities:
A) Masters have an opportunity before the draft/auction to step down from being General and appoint a General in their place (as before). 
That Master may then enter the draft/auction but is (1) unavailable to all other teams and can only be obtained in the first round or at maximum cost OR (2) must be drafted by their team in the first round or purchased by their own team immediately at the maximum cost.

-The downsides here is Masters can use the rule to essentially lock in a "first pick" (even at max cost) by designating them the General.  It would need to be worded in such a way that players being appointed General have the option to say "NO", and this may cause some timing and complexity issues.  Also A(1) means that a Master who appoints a General might sit out War if the General they appointed does not select them.  While this feels very unlikely for a number of reasons, it could be a point of contention.  A(2) is a little more uncomfortable in a draft, as it feels like they are being forced to "use their first pick" on the Master.  But I would point out that this is not meaningfully different than if the General was the (max cost)/(first pick).  And I would expect that will be reasonable, as players who are capable of being General should go in the first round of a draft or receive max bids in an auction.
-The upsides are Masters can participate in War as non-Generals.  They remain in their own element.  It has a minimal impact on the other elements.  And it is not terribly complex.  A non general master A(1) must ban all other elements and if selected by their element, it must be done in the first round (or if bid on by their element must receive a maximum bid) or B(1) must be selected by their element in the first round (or must receive a maximum bid from their element's general).  These can be established by very clear and concise rules.

B) Masters have an opportunity before the draft/auction to step down from being General and appoint a General in their place (as before).  If they do so, they cannot participate in War.
However, if a Master puts a maximum bid on a player or uses their first round draft pick on a player, and that player consents, the title of General is passed to that player effective immediately.  That player will then continue the draft/auction as the General, and the Master will remain on that Element's team.

-This solution is very similar to the first with a few differences.
a) It places a clearly emphasis on the player receiving the General title's willingness to accept the title. 
b) It removes the possibility of a Master appointing a General and then the General not selecting the Master to join there team (and thus the Master not participating in War).
c) Masters have to decide to participate in War or sit it out before the auction/draft, but if they choose to participate, they have some time after that to determine and reach an agreement with who their General will be. 

I feel I have not entirely detailed either solution as it would need to be as rules of the event, but I hope they can serve as ideas the WMs can build upon to find a meaningful way to let Masters who don't want to General (for whatever reason) to participate in War, but remain on the team of the Element of which they are Master.

Also I feel it is important to start giving this topic serious consideration now, as I think this could easily be classified as one of the worst handled issues during last war.

*this post is subject to minor clarification updates, as I will likely reread it several times and find things I feel are worded poorly*

Also I believe that the WMs gave this issue some serious consideration before arriving at their current ruling, so I would not expect it to change this war.

[SpikeSpiegel]

I hope to see that a master that won't lead his element, won't be allowed to join war.

I understand if, because of real life committents, a master decides to not lead his element; I understand less that a master decides to not lead his element because he has no desire to join War: in that case he shouldn't joined Trials (or defended his title). But it's totally unbearable that a master refuses to do it just because he doesn't feel able/confident to do it properly or because he wants to join a different team.

I quote that

A Master is usually a decorated and respected veteran player who knows a lot about Elements and is skillful in PvP.

A master represents his element within the community; joining the War as soldier in another element would be, to me, an insult to his element.

[RootRanger]

I can understand why a Master would enter Trials but not War - they're two completely different events with drastically different deckbuilding rules.

As for joining War as a soldier - that just doesn't make any sense.

[dawn to dusk]

If a master chooses not to lead his element in war, that is acceptable.
If that same master joins that team as a soldier, I ask them if they're fit to lead that element in other events.
If that master joins another element, they are a disgrace to the element they are master of.

Though I do feel that, whether or not they join war, they should make people know that that is their element. Make them take into consideration that they will use that deck, regardless of the meta. That is what makes a master.

Imo of course

[Submachine]

For one War, let's allow poor masters to join any element they want. For god's sake, pls.