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Offline Helston

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167062#msg1167062
« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2014, 01:51:49 am »
I personally respect the way the Warmasters and Higurashi have handled this situation, and I think I speak for all when I say I'm hopeful War will continue forward in a positive manner following this.

I could hardly agree more.
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Offline inthisroom

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167063#msg1167063
« Reply #85 on: November 20, 2014, 01:54:17 am »
I'm not even gonna go back and quote some of these posts the hardcore way. ...
Higurashi explained the incident, and agreed with the WM's. We all know Higurashi is rather strict, so if she agrees, who are you to disagree, or even more, lash out?
Higurashi is an admin. Who are you to ask for an official answer from WM's when Higurashi>WM's and didn't even have to give any info. They could've obscured everything. Why not be thankful for them telling you the information?
Zblader has said he hopes war will move forward in a positive way.
Bripod said probably not.
Hain kept lashing out.

Now let me remind you of one of our forum rules, and mind you Higurashi is still and admin and it's her job to enforce these rules. Especially staffers too that help her.


MEDIUM INFRACTIONS - 40 points

Flaming: Do not post any messages that harass, insult (name calling), belittle, threaten or mock other members. Debates are fine, but critique the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks are not permitted.

Trolling: Do not post topics with the sole purpose of starting a dispute.

Advertising: Posting or private messaging to sell, buy, or trade products or services, links to auctions, affiliate links, links to promote personal or commercial websites, blogs, other forums and so forth is not allowed anywhere without explicit permission.

Disrespecting moderators.  Be respectful in both the forums and any private communications with moderators.  Moderators are volunteers that donate many, many hours of their own time to help in the forums and chat rooms.

Constantly bothering game developers. Elements the game owner and Lead Developer Zanzarino visits from time to time in the forum chatrooms. Please be respectful and don't bother him constantly by asking dumb questions. Regular conversation is of course permitted but spamming private messages asking how to upgrade cards is not. Lets give developers room to work on the game, ok?


Is lashing out at WM's and the admin "harass"ing enough? Is it not "belittl"ing our admin when you act like her answer isn't official enough and you ask for Warmaster's official opinions? Is it personal enough to count as a "personal attack" when you're talking specifically about the Admin and WM's?

My thoughts: an answer has been given. A solution has been given for the incident to make sure it doesn't happen in the future. Guys, seriously? This is coming from me!
Thank you Zblader for trying to find answers everyones looking for, but doing it in a polite manner while trying to lessen the situation at hand. I was waiting for our beloved admin to post the same thing I'm posting, but apparently someone else has to stick up for her cause she's stuck between a rock and a hard spot.

and as I typed this, a thank you's been given.

Usual post quality.

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167068#msg1167068
« Reply #86 on: November 20, 2014, 02:03:58 am »
I do not know if this is the biggest scandal of the war because I start in war6 , but certainly the biggest I've witnessed in this forum
well anyway let's be tolerant in this particular case
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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167073#msg1167073
« Reply #87 on: November 20, 2014, 02:27:49 am »
So... After that post, and then going back and looking at Aether's decks the last 2 rounds, I think literally every one of them was a hard-counter, or at least vastly in favor of aether.  I am honestly inclined to side with the WM's, which is pretty saddening.

Yes. This is the one reason why I suspected something was up even before the round rollover already (as I posted in Team Darkness chat).

I'd like to point out one matchup in particular.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/round-4-249/%28aether-gn-%29-hainkarga-3-0-spikespiegel-%28time-gn-%29/

Most Team Aether matchups during round 3 and 4 were hardcounters, yes, but usually with a reasonable deck for them to use - which is not difficult to do since Aether is a very strong and versatile Element.
This one particular deck choice however was simply a mistake that ONLY makes sense if you assume that somebody from Team Aether has seen Team Time's vault before building it.

The deck Aether used is hard countered by about at least 75% of Time's deckpool. Simply go through the decks that Time used in previous Wars against Aether. Alternatively check out how many decks that the current Team Time has used so far that beat it. I know from personal experience that Aether's odds are very much stacked in their favor in this matchup and there is absolutely zero reason for them to use a 20-25% deck in this spot.
If you followed the conversation surrounding this matchup (go read up chat history if you need to) there were also a few curious statements made:
- Higurashi was the one who built the deck, hainkarga sounded very skeptical about it.
- Higurashi immediately pointed out that she made a mistake when building the deck because she did not account for Pandemonium rewinding Spikes creatures Scorpions. This is TOTAL bullshit. This is pretty much the first time that Scorpion rush was used together with Pandemonium. If you were expecting a Scorpion deck, you have to expect RT and bring a different deck. Anticipating an innovation like that and 100% hinging your matchup chance on that is simply idiotic... unless you have insider information. A reaction that would have been a little more credible would have been something along the lines of "oops looks like we got lucky we were expecting Pharabow" or something. This? No way in hell.

I also suspected there might be some more evidence that could be gathered from stuff like doc history, and I really advice everyone to reread CuCNs post. I cannot imagine how the evidence could be anymore damning. "The Oracle" checked everyone BUT Aether's vault topics? Decks being posted consistently after everyone else's? If you think that Higurashi did not cheat you probably also think that this guy is just checking out Zvi's sweet dragon logo.

To sum up my thoughts on this matter:

- Higurashi is a scumbag and a cheater.
- The fact that she still holds an admin position on this forum is a joke.
- If the community lets her get away with this due to her being an eloquent person and holding staff positions for a long time, it is truly pathetic.
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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167076#msg1167076
« Reply #88 on: November 20, 2014, 02:31:10 am »

The evidence our conclusion was based on:
Admin logs said that during the deckbuilding phase of Round 2, Higurashi made some change to all the team sections other than Aether's, and then another change to the same sections 13 minutes later. (source: antiaverage)
According to a database query, the account "The Oracle" viewed every one of the topics with links to the vaults, but not Aether's. No timestamps, but an incrementing ID number pointed to it happening in Round 2. (source: antiaverage)
According to the vault tool revision history, Aether's decks were consistently being posted after their opponents' decks were. This included one instance where only two decks were posted prior to a period of several hours with no activity; at that time, only the two corresponding opponents had posted their decks, with the other four posting during the gap. (source: Google Sheets history)
Some behavior in Aether's secret planning area, which will remain private. (source: deuce22, from hainkarga)

Higurashi gave an explanation for the first two, but serprex and I still agree on our conclusion because of the coincidences required.

Whether or not any cheating occurred, it is certain that every secret team board and vault tool except for Aether's was exposed to someone using the Oracle account.
antiaverage has told us that information in PMs was not exposed.

Thanks to hainkarga for being cooperative with our investigation.


Ok. This is something very serious. As I wrote, it would be impossible to me to think Higu has cheated, but now I don't know what to think. I'm looking to  :aether rounds...4-2...5-1 and then 6-0 6-0, almost all matches won 3-0, almost countered the opponent all the times...

I look to my duel vs hainkarga, a no-damage stall vs :time? Mmmhh...

Unfortunately, once the suspect makes its way into you it hard to change point of view; as I said to someone, it would be very hard to me to swallow if Higu cheated.

Unfortunately, according of what CuCN wrote, possible explanations are not so many...

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Offline inthisroom

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167078#msg1167078
« Reply #89 on: November 20, 2014, 02:45:31 am »
So... After that post, and then going back and looking at Aether's decks the last 2 rounds, I think literally every one of them was a hard-counter, or at least vastly in favor of aether.  I am honestly inclined to side with the WM's, which is pretty saddening.

Yes. This is the one reason why I suspected something was up even before the round rollover already (as I posted in Team Darkness chat).

I'd like to point out one matchup in particular.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/round-4-249/%28aether-gn-%29-hainkarga-3-0-spikespiegel-%28time-gn-%29/

Most Team Aether matchups during round 3 and 4 were hardcounters, yes, but usually with a reasonable deck for them to use - which is not difficult to do since Aether is a very strong and versatile Element.
This one particular deck choice however was simply a mistake that ONLY makes sense if you assume that somebody from Team Aether has seen Team Time's vault before building it.

The deck Aether used is hard countered by about at least 75% of Time's deckpool. Simply go through the decks that Time used in previous Wars against Aether. Alternatively check out how many decks that the current Team Time has used so far that beat it. I know from personal experience that Aether's odds are very much stacked in their favor in this matchup and there is absolutely zero reason for them to use a 20-25% deck in this spot.
If you followed the conversation surrounding this matchup (go read up chat history if you need to) there were also a few curious statements made:
- Higurashi was the one who built the deck, hainkarga sounded very skeptical about it.
- Higurashi immediately pointed out that she made a mistake when building the deck because she did not account for Pandemonium rewinding Spikes creatures Scorpions. This is TOTAL bullshit. This is pretty much the first time that Scorpion rush was used together with Pandemonium. If you were expecting a Scorpion deck, you have to expect RT and bring a different deck. Anticipating an innovation like that and 100% hinging your matchup chance on that is simply idiotic... unless you have insider information. A reaction that would have been a little more credible would have been something along the lines of "oops looks like we got lucky we were expecting Pharabow" or something. This? No way in hell.

I also suspected there might be some more evidence that could be gathered from stuff like doc history, and I really advice everyone to reread CuCNs post. I cannot imagine how the evidence could be anymore damning. "The Oracle" checked everyone BUT Aether's vault topics? Decks being posted consistently after everyone else's? If you think that Higurashi did not cheat you probably also think that this guy is just checking out Zvi's sweet dragon logo.

To sum up my thoughts on this matter:

- Higurashi is a scumbag and a cheater.
- The fact that she still holds an admin position on this forum is a joke.
- If the community lets her get away with this due to her being an eloquent person and holding staff positions for a long time, it is truly pathetic.

Bookmarked, because awesome.

Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167079#msg1167079
« Reply #90 on: November 20, 2014, 03:00:47 am »
Wow, and I was joking around in chat saying:

" :aether does not need any help from WMs since they have the forum admin on their team ;)"

I swear I meant it purely as a joke at the time...
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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167083#msg1167083
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2014, 03:34:32 am »
I did work out a Dune deck with mass CC for one three-pronged reason: I've faced Spike several times and always tended to use Fractal decks. The times he's been close to beating me have been with Dune decks with RT for CC, but it's only been close. He's a smart guy, so I reasoned he'd realize he needed to pack a third component to be able to beat a Fractal deck. I reasoned it would either be QC or mass CC, but when I took a look at CP Dune builds I noticed he could use both. I wasn't sure if he'd use BE and RT or Pande at first, but with extensive testing only Pande tipped it over the edge to win. There were still tweaks I wanted to make, but I ran out of time.

There were many decks I'd tweak if I had the time, but I only had the last day and a half of the rounds to deckbuild. I did, however, have the week to theorycraft since I could do that much at work at least (I work out in the field all day). In round 2 I built a few decks, but only 1 of them worked as intended; the devtal. The RoL/Hope against Cal was a failure on my part. Some of the MA's were shots in the dark, and I wasn't confident about the one vs Life since a stallier Adrenastaff could've won, but with Life's tendency to pack only one of each shield I took the risk. The only one that was really predictable was Gravy's zap-proof Dishole since it's always a priority choice if it's alive. Grabbows against Darkness and Light were also shots in the dark, which was initially true for all Darkness and Death matchups; they remain trickier to predict. Round 3 and 4, especially 3, could've easily been 4-2's, or a repeat of round 2 with bad RNG.

If I had wanted to cheat, I naturally wouldn't do it through board access changes since they log in the admin log, and if I would've had to, I would've purged the admin log. I would've used a VPN or proxy when logging on to a different account to access boards, and it wouldn't be The Oracle since Admins have the password to that (which is why I used it to see what boards it had gained access to). Thirdly I would've made sure we had done well in round 2 as well (at least 4-2) since this bug occurred before round 2, and I would've changed several decks if I had prior knowledge (Guardtal to Vamptal due to no RoF, changes to RoL/Hopes, Psiontal vs Earth, rushier Grabbows, Chargetal vs Light, bigger Sancstall and so on). And lastly I wouldn't repeatedly go for 6-0 since it's suspicious.

Regardless, I've changed the password of The Oracle account and the bug should not occur again. If the community no longer trusts me, I will resign since the Admin position is one of service to the users.
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Offline CuCN

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167086#msg1167086
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2014, 04:00:45 am »
This isn't the place for any more discussion that is not directly related to the current round. Further posts in this topic about whether or not cheating occurred will be removed.

I appreciate that Higs has been entirely civil about this matter.

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167125#msg1167125
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2014, 12:16:47 pm »
Round question:

Was it answered if stored relics will be visible to other teams? If yes, what was the answer?
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Offline CuCN

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167126#msg1167126
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2014, 12:23:56 pm »
They will be visible.

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Re: War #8 - Round 5 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56679.msg1167261#msg1167261
« Reply #95 on: November 21, 2014, 02:15:30 am »
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