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Offline Submachine

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167226#msg1167226
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2014, 10:09:05 pm »
Uhh... okay, I didn't want to get involved but would you really make Higs resign? Banning from all PvP events would be more suitable than making her resign, but I'm not even sure about that one. Adminship can only be abused in War imo.
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167227#msg1167227
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2014, 10:14:38 pm »
Uhh... okay, I didn't want to get involved but would you really make Higs resign? Banning from all PvP events would be more suitable than making her resign, but I'm not even sure about that one. Adminship can only be abused in War imo.
From an ethical point of view, leaving an Admin that the users doubt in position may cause users to continue to question her credibility. Likewise, war is not the only event that can make use of secret sections.

However this option should also be held off until there is absolute proof someone/no one else was messing was the Oracle account; until such a proof is given, withdrawal from War and potential bans are more relatively appropriate actions.

EDIT: Amending my position in light of this now becoming a matter of trust issue as opposed to being an actual proof of cheating one. If the community does not trust Higs, it is in her best interest to resign and allow UTAlan to assume responsibility, allowing us to have a credible and fresh start.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 11:26:38 pm by Zblader »

Offline Vangelios

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167229#msg1167229
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2014, 10:23:58 pm »
Uhh... okay, I didn't want to get involved but would you really make Higs resign? Banning from all PvP events would be more suitable than making her resign, but I'm not even sure about that one. Adminship can only be abused in War imo.
Well I am in favor of minimum removing Adm.
because even innocent (I don't belive) she showed that does not know how to make correct decisions how Spike previously mentioned. the way correct to do. also as warblind should never join war another act wrong of who should be a mature Adm warblind.
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Offline UTAlan

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167234#msg1167234
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2014, 10:39:40 pm »
Regardless of the fact that Warblind Admin doesn't have the ability to see secret sections (requires Oracle account, which gets logged), Vaults are now secured via email authentication, prohibiting this from really being an issue again. You don't have to trust me or Team Aether, but there is no reason Warblind Admins cannot participate in War.

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167236#msg1167236
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2014, 10:43:24 pm »
Also one thing bit strange is behavior of Higurashi
If I'm innocent and I can not prove, I would send everyone to hell and leave the forum, but now I see a behavior comprehensive and submissive.


I think the behavior of Higurashi in response to the incident being different than how you would have behaved under the same accusation says more about a difference in your personalities than about her innocence or guilt.  Higurashi's never been the type to storm off or ragequit anything, and I think a bit of humility in the face of accusations (regardless of innocence or guilt) is both a reasonable way to behave and a thing that fits with what I know of her personality (though as I am a newer member, others may know her personality better).
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Offline Vangelios

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167237#msg1167237
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2014, 10:44:42 pm »
well if adm warblind cannot see secret sections, ok then
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167238#msg1167238
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2014, 10:54:04 pm »
Regardless of the fact that Warblind Admin doesn't have the ability to see secret sections (requires Oracle account, which gets logged), Vaults are now secured via email authentication, prohibiting this from really being an issue again. You don't have to trust me or Team Aether, but there is no reason Warblind Admins cannot participate in War.
I honestly doubt it is wise to fix that which is not meant to be fixed. Warblind Admin has been proven an unwieldy concept and if a simple bug can derail War this badly, I am skeptical of any fixes fully restoring the faith of the players in the use of the concept. If War is desired to keep a rigid design players can adhere to, Warblind Admin should not be used again. Surely there are enough wise users on this forum to allow a backup global moderator/admin to handle things instead?

EDIT: I would also like to point out that it is possible that someone could accidentally gain permissions to clean logs in addition to what has already been done on the Oracle account. As this has not been addressed yet, I do not think Warblind is an airtight method.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 11:17:44 pm by Zblader »

Offline Vangelios

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167239#msg1167239
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2014, 10:54:48 pm »
Also one thing bit strange is behavior of Higurashi
If I'm innocent and I can not prove, I would send everyone to hell and leave the forum, but now I see a behavior comprehensive and submissive.


I think the behavior of Higurashi in response to the incident being different than how you would have behaved under the same accusation says more about a difference in your personalities than about her innocence or guilt.  Higurashi's never been the type to storm off or ragequit anything, and I think a bit of humility in the face of accusations (regardless of innocence or guilt) is both a reasonable way to behave and a thing that fits with what I know of her personality (though as I am a newer member, others may know her personality better).
Elk look, at least in the trial of fire she had an aggressive personality by a comment discreet I did of hainkarga, Now imagine doing a comment direct to she
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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167242#msg1167242
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2014, 11:23:03 pm »
I've thought about this a lot last night and today...

Several questions keep coming up over and over.

- When the bug was noticed by Higs, why did she not contact another Admin to take care of the issue?
- Why did Higs not inform the WM's of the bug and the need to have it fixed?
- Why were Aether's sections not entered during the bug fix?
- Why were Aether's deck choices entered individually after an opponents decks posted?
- Why would Aether choose some of those decks as there are better options than some posted?

Higs has done much for this community and it would be a loss to see her leave but in the midst of all that has come to light, it is my opinion, and that of others, that Higs' reputation of being a trustworthy Admin, has taken a devastating blow. To be in a position where you govern the members of the community is not a position that I would want a person that I did not trust.

If Higs' account of what happened is true, then she used very poor judgement in not notifying another Admin and the WM's about it before she broke her Warblind vow and went into other teams sections. If wrongdoing occured, then I'm very sorry that Higs thought she had to resolve to deceit in order to show Aethers supremacy...

Hainkarga, after all the discussion with several others, I feel that you and the rest of Team Aether are the victims of someone else's poor judgement and their actions have been an insult to everyone else on the team. I know that we don't always see eye-to-eye, but I think our hearts both love this game in a similar fashion.

I'm not sure how many of the people I talked to, and shared the same opinion with, will come forward and speak their mind but I for one will respectfully ask Higs to resign as Admin and refrain from holding any position in the Element's Community except for the role of Member. I believe that too much damage has been done for it to end any other way.

Offline 10 men

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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167246#msg1167246
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2014, 12:15:54 am »
I really find myself shaking my head reading some of these posts... What kind of evidence would it take for you guys to accept that Higurashi cheated? Short of her straight up admitting it? Basically you have to decide between the following two narratives:

A series of hair-raisingly unprofessional behavior by Higurashi in her function as admin (see bripod's first three points), coinciding with extremely suspicious behavior in Aether's vault doc, two perfect rounds by them and some highly unorthodox deck choices following a round that must have been very frustrating for Team Aether (4 or 5 RNG losses)

OR

Vault - Mind Gates.

You simply cannot get stronger evidence than what exists.

Quote from: Higurashi
If I had wanted to cheat, I naturally wouldn't do it through board access changes since they log in the admin log, and if I would've had to, I would've purged the admin log. I would've used a VPN or proxy when logging on to a different account to access boards, and it wouldn't be The Oracle since Admins have the password to that (which is why I used it to see what boards it had gained access to).

Yes Higurashi, if you had actually cheated it would have been the perfect crime... I do not think that you are a criminal genius, just smart enough to have some actual rudimentary understanding how the Time/Aether matchup works. As for what you did, it would have taken another admin to investigate it and antiaverage had been inactive for weeks.

Quote from: Higurashi
Thirdly I would've made sure we had done well in round 2 as well (at least 4-2) since this bug occurred before round 2

No motive during round 2, War was still going fine for Aether until then.

Quote from: Higurashi
I would've changed several decks if I had prior knowledge (Guardtal to Vamptal due to no RoF, changes to RoL/Hopes, Psiontal vs Earth, rushier Grabbows, Chargetal vs Light, bigger Sancstall and so on). And lastly I wouldn't repeatedly go for 6-0 since it's suspicious.

You would not have gone back to back 6-0 to reduce suspicion, but you would have used even harder counters than what you played in round 3 & 4. Uh-huh.
Also why even worry about suspicion, even with the massive amounts of additional evidence that WMs have dug up, lots of people are still willing to give you the benefit of doubt...


Uhh... okay, I didn't want to get involved but would you really make Higs resign? Banning from all PvP events would be more suitable than making her resign, but I'm not even sure about that one. Adminship can only be abused in War imo.

Yes, this seems like a good time as any to have a discussion about whether it is a wise idea to have a cheater as the admin of a gaming community. Pros & cons anyone?
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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167267#msg1167267
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2014, 04:32:12 am »
Well, apart from my personal views and conclusions on the matter, this is getting more and more the like of a witch-hunt, in all respects. Take a moment to have a thought about that.
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Re: War #8 - General Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55615.msg1167274#msg1167274
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2014, 06:28:49 am »
I agree with bripod.

 

blarg: