*Author

Offline ddevans96Topic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 113
  • ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • now palafrost online
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSilver Donor9th Trials - Master of WaterSlice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake8th Trials - Master of WaterSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWinner of the Harry Potter PvP House CupSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508645#msg508645
« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2012, 02:24:49 pm »
Teams could simply be allowed to decline a salvage by sending a PM to the Warmasters before the deadline.

Like this?

If a team PMs me before their match starts, they may elect not to salvage.  It's silly to actually require you to sub.
discord / twitter: palafrost - 2x master of water - false god enthusiast
twitch: palafrost - speedrunner, ex-celeste, currently hades
avatar: makoto [persona 5] by asukabaka

Offline The_Mormegil

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2262
  • Country: it
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Intelligence is overrated.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWar #5 Winner - Team AetherTeam PvP WinnerNew Slot Winner - FamiliarDeadly Sin Winner - GluttonyFirst Budosei of BudokanWinner of Revive the Archive
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508658#msg508658
« Reply #121 on: June 07, 2012, 02:46:25 pm »
Teams could simply be allowed to decline a salvage by sending a PM to the Warmasters before the deadline.

Like this?

If a team PMs me before their match starts, they may elect not to salvage.  It's silly to actually require you to sub.

No, exactly NOT like that.
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline bjessee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 294
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • bjessee is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeWar #5 - Sportsmanship AwardWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508663#msg508663
« Reply #122 on: June 07, 2012, 03:00:58 pm »
I thought that, historically, most strategic subbing was done to stay in the "sweet spots" of not having to field one extra deck and strain the vault.  This is the first case I know of where it was tied to a bye.  I am guessing that is because of byes now going to the teams in the lead which I believe is new.

kev's solution only covers the "sweet spot" subbings.  Root's issue is more involved, and his proposed solution is to have the PMs be sent prior to the end of the battle round (I am assuming this deadline rather than deckbuilding).  While this fixes his issue, it allows for the team to choose which salvage to exclude which kev was trying to avoid.

I am at a loss for a solution that would fix both issues and fall in line with kev's thoughts on the matter.
"Aperture Science.  We do what we must because we can."  -GLaDOS

Offline deuce22

  • Master of Aether
  • *
  • ******
  • Posts: 3163
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 44
  • deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.
  • never trust a badger
  • Awards: War #14 Winner - Team Aether14th Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament Winner11th Trials - Master of Aether10th Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner9th Trials - Master of Aether2014 - PvP World ChampionWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner8th Trials - Master of AetherWinner of Team PvP #6War #7 Winner - Team Aether7th Trials - Master of AetherWar #6 Winner - Team AetherWeekly Tournament Winner6th Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWar #5 Winner - Team AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner5th Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508672#msg508672
« Reply #123 on: June 07, 2012, 04:05:17 pm »
I have a semi-crazy idea.

If a sub wins, then the opponent they beat determines their salvage from 0-6 cards.

Early in war, teams will lose salvage, and late in war teams can no longer strategically sub.

Offline Avenger

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2227
  • Country: hu
  • Reputation Power: 25
  • Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.
  • War veteran
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSilver DonorWar #8 Winner - Team FireWar #7 Winner - Team AetherWar #6 Winner - Team AetherWar #5 Winner - Team Aether
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508673#msg508673
« Reply #124 on: June 07, 2012, 04:18:13 pm »
I have a semi-crazy idea.

If a sub wins, then the opponent they beat determines their salvage from 0-6 cards.

Early in war, teams will lose salvage, and late in war teams can no longer strategically sub.
This is an interesting idea :)

Offline RootRanger

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3118
  • Reputation Power: 51
  • RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.
  • R A I N B R O S
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 13th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday Cake10th Trials - Master of FireElemental Conquest WinnerWriting Competition - Across(tic) the World of ElementsWeekly Tournament Winner1st Grandmaster Battle Winner - FireThere Can Be Only One - 2016 WinnerGold DonorChampionship League 2/2015 2nd Place9th Trials - Master of FireElements: A Game of Politics - WinnerEnder of War War #8 Winner - Team FireWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerChampionship League 1/2013 WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWar #4 Winner - Team DeathChampionship League 3/2011 3rd PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerBeginners League 2/2011 2nd PlaceWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerBeginners League 1/2011 2nd PlaceWeekly PvP Tournament Winner
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508674#msg508674
« Reply #125 on: June 07, 2012, 04:18:34 pm »
If a sub wins, then the opponent they beat determines their salvage from 0-6 cards.

This is a very effective rule for rewarding activity even more than before, and rewarding skill even less. Since this is the mindset the community seems to have, I would imagine that this will be a welcomed change. Nice idea.
Somehow still around, somewhat

Offline deuce22

  • Master of Aether
  • *
  • ******
  • Posts: 3163
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 44
  • deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.deuce22 soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.
  • never trust a badger
  • Awards: War #14 Winner - Team Aether14th Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament Winner11th Trials - Master of Aether10th Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner9th Trials - Master of Aether2014 - PvP World ChampionWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner8th Trials - Master of AetherWinner of Team PvP #6War #7 Winner - Team Aether7th Trials - Master of AetherWar #6 Winner - Team AetherWeekly Tournament Winner6th Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWar #5 Winner - Team AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner5th Trials - Master of AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508677#msg508677
« Reply #126 on: June 07, 2012, 04:28:17 pm »
If a sub wins, then the opponent they beat determines their salvage from 0-6 cards.

This is a very effective rule for rewarding activity even more than before, and rewarding skill even less. Since this is the mindset the community seems to have, I would imagine that this will be a welcomed change. Nice idea.

Thanks for the support. I guess something would have to be added like the Gen or Lt needs to post the salvage decision within 24 hrs after battle phase. If not, 0 salvage is assumed.

Offline Avenger

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2227
  • Country: hu
  • Reputation Power: 25
  • Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.Avenger is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.
  • War veteran
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSilver DonorWar #8 Winner - Team FireWar #7 Winner - Team AetherWar #6 Winner - Team AetherWar #5 Winner - Team Aether
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508682#msg508682
« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2012, 05:06:01 pm »
If a sub wins, then the opponent they beat determines their salvage from 0-6 cards.

This is a very effective rule for rewarding activity even more than before, and rewarding skill even less. Since this is the mindset the community seems to have, I would imagine that this will be a welcomed change. Nice idea.

Thanks for the support. I guess something would have to be added like the Gen or Lt needs to post the salvage decision within 24 hrs after battle phase. If not, 0 salvage is assumed.
I don't know how much support is that, considering he wrote it is "rewarding skill even less". The war is teamwork, so it is obvious that it shouldn't promote the skill of a single player, but the composite skill of the whole team. Especially, as strategic subbing is not a playing skill, it is more like a math "skill". I don't think we have to support that much, subbing was not intended to do that.
Most teams (those that wouldn't consider the benefits of strategic subbing, just sub because they have to) wouldn't be badly affected by some gift cards.

Offline The_Mormegil

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2262
  • Country: it
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.The_Mormegil is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Intelligence is overrated.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWar #5 Winner - Team AetherTeam PvP WinnerNew Slot Winner - FamiliarDeadly Sin Winner - GluttonyFirst Budosei of BudokanWinner of Revive the Archive
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508697#msg508697
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2012, 05:50:20 pm »
Yeah, I like deuce's idea.
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline Shantu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1456
  • Country: hu
  • Reputation Power: 21
  • Shantu is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Shantu is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Shantu is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Shantu is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.
  • In high orbit
  • Awards: Weekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeMaster Duelist - Winner of the Duels of Honor PvP Event6th Trials - Master of DeathThe 1st Avatar - Winner of the PvP EventWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWinner of the Harry Potter PvP House Cup1st Champion of The ColosseumWeekly Tournament WinnerParolee of the 1st Prisoners DilemmaSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg508944#msg508944
« Reply #129 on: June 08, 2012, 09:42:18 am »
Just a random idea about support teams without completely changing them, wanted to post it before I forget:

Allow attackers to use in-element cards; however, limit the amount of copies they can have in the deck, depending on the amount the main team used. Say Team Death used 18 mummies in the third round, their support team can use only 1 (or no mummies at all) in their decks. While their deck will be still subpar, it will allow at least to put in a little damage in-element. 2 spiders, 2 poisons and 1-2 dragons would have been more than enough to form a base for any kind of deck for us.  Instead, we were stuck with stalkers, soul catchers, skeletons and such.
The formula for the amount of copies could be like this: 6 - ('amount used by the team' / 3)
So for those who hate formulas: 1 copy less for every 3 mummies used by the main team.

Off-element cards could remain the same.
Defenders would use the attacker formula too to determine the number of copies they can use from a card, but the defender bonus would allow them to use 6 copies of any cards they chose. So if Team Death used only 6 dragons this round in (with PUs), their support defenders can use 4 dragons in each deck and choose to use 6 PUs with it (due to the defender bonus). They can also choose to use 6 dragons if they so wish.

Could make it more severe too, like if you use a card (any number of it) you can use 3 copies max. Then 1 less for every 6 used.

So it is a kind of buff for both sides.

If this doesn't make any sense (I'm in a bit of a hurry), let me know and I will try to elaborate later.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 09:52:48 am by Shantu »

Offline willng3

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5763
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 77
  • willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.willng3 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Your tears are delicious
  • Awards: 10th Trials - Master of LifeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeWar Correspondent Competition - WinnnerWeekly Tournament Winner6th Trials - Master of LifeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake5th Trials - Master of Life4th Trials - Master of LifeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday CakeShort Story: Rare Mythology Competition Winner
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg510339#msg510339
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2012, 04:14:20 am »
Warning:  Lotsa reading awaits.

I think I should probably break this down into sections or else I'm going to likely steer off course about 50 times.  May as well start at the beginning...

Spoiler for Auction:
I don't really have any complaints or suggestions here, actually :D  I've already said my bit on secondary auction as well.

Spoiler for Vault Construction:
About the only thing I disliked about vault building was that it seemed to severely limit the options I was able to field against each element in planning.  With Life being pretty weak in terms of PvP this meant that we were unable to bring as many counters to cards like Dim Shield as we realistically would have liked.  For example, during round 1 I wouldn't have been surprised in the slightest to see every single team use a duo with Dim Shields against us.  And though I probably would have been able to send a deck against each and every one of them that counters Dim Shield in theory, building a vault that is completely centered around countering a single card is obviously going to open up some pretty huge holes to other strategies.  However, the simplest way to fix this issue would be to essentially "fix" :life as an Element rather than modify War rules to account for various huge weaknesses that each Element may or may not have.  Therefore I cannot say that vault restrictions were really to blame for this problem. 

The lack of Grabbows throughout War was pretty refreshing.

I also dislike having vault construction take place during Propaganda page creation, especially now that there are 6 teammates to work with.  When I first noticed how many teams were having vrt produce their banner art I thought it was just out of sheer laziness, but looking back it seems pretty logical to have someone outside of the team perform that type of work while the rest is able to focus completely on vault preparations.  But as I've already said my bit on Propaganda improvements as well, I'll end on that note.

Spoiler for Support Teams + Deckbuilding Phase:
Okay, there's a lot here that I feel needs improvement. 

At the beginning of War each team is responsible for preparing for 6 matches on the main team.  The next couple of rounds don't really change much because it's unlikely that every single team will have their ~2 attackers charge into battle against everyone else.  However the later rounds become nearly intolerable.  Over the past few Wars it has been incredibly evident that Teams lose quite a bit of willpower and interest in War as it continues to play out and decks continue to be lost with each new round.  War itself compensated for this in the past by requiring teams to prepare less and less with each new round which in turn caused teams to devote less time to an event that was becoming uninteresting to them.  However, support team battles will cause teams to spend essentially the same amount of time on preparations in the later rounds as they had in the beginning, depending on how many attackers they face.  In turn, it makes the deckbuilding phase more intolerable and frustrating for losing teams than I think is desired.  Also, having to build decks and schedule matches during the same ~3 days (especially when there are quite a few teammates on the support team) is a bit too much.

Deckbuilding restrictions may need a bit of rework as well, though I'm really not sure what needs to be done.  Life had its fair share of successes and failures when attacking so I can't really say if the deckbuilding rules are slanted against anyone's favor.  Sure from the outside it looks as if attacking teams have a severe disadvantage against defenders, but performances don't exactly reflect that very well.  I'd say that the deckbuilding ruleset causes Elements with particularly big weaknesses to be placed at a disadvantage, but again, that's not exactly War's problem as much as a balancing issue that needs to be resolved within the game itself.   I enjoyed the deckbuilding quite a bit though; this kind of restrictive deckbuilding that's not bound by the numerical limitations of a vault allow for plenty fun to be had in testing, and with each new round that passes in the main team of War that's not really observed.  Also, as I've advocated a desire for my team to really get to know the Element :life during War, this really allows for that desire to become a reality more easily especially when the ones developing most of the ideas are someone other than the Master/General of the team.

I personally believe that teams should be limited to 2 or 3 members acting on a support team at a time.  This both takes away time required to prepare for the matches during the deckbuilding phase as War progresses and weakens the power of the team's defense slightly.


Miscellaneous thoughts:

-The rule allowing opposing teams to purchase someone off of your support team needs to be terminated and never return again.  I never allowed a single support team member into my team's chatroom for the simple reason that if another team somehow found a way to bribe them into joining their side then we'd be completely screwed.  And while I'd like to think this would never happen, I have no choice but to take these precautions.  As a result, support team members become completely dissociated from the actions of the main team which causes severe confusion because that member has no idea what to do for that round until instructed to do so.  In addition, this allow for an exploit of rule 8.2 and the "no sharing of vault secrets" rule if someone does not take the precautions I had.

-Generals being unable to sub for attacking support team members while the Lt. is freely able to do so doesn't make sense to me.  Generals being unable to post support team actions while the Lt. is freely able to do so doesn't make sense to me.  As far as I'm concerned the General should have the ability to do nearly everything else that their subordinates can given that they possess the highest power of their team and that they were the ones who basically gave that subordinate that power in the first place.

-Not posting each individual match-up during the later rounds was confusing considering there was no announcement indicating how things would work from that point forward.  Arranging matches became increasingly difficult as well, causing nearly all matches to be done at the last minute as everyone went crazy trying to find an opponent to face.

-Having to decide what players to send again which team before the end of the duel phase was fine except for the fact that some duels might not take place even an hour before the round ends, at which time a team's Lt. may or may not be online to observe what cards were used.

Spoiler for Duels:
Best of 5 is still great, with the addition of Relics I don't really have any complaints about the upgrade amounts either.  I'd like to give my thoughts on each member role in more detail, but considering I didn't get to benefit from their effects even once, I can't say they wouldn't be negative.  But there are a few improvements that I feel certain should be made:

-Assassins:  Random discard needs to be removed.  I understand that it doesn't make much sense for a team to have control over what its opposing team assassinates from a logical standpoint, but then again in this case no one has control over anything.  It's just completely unfair to lose access to an incredibly important card that wasn't even used during a lost duel, especially when that card may be necessary for an entire deck to function at all.  If having a team choose discards from their own vault is out of the question then maybe adding a removal of 3 cards to what's already discarded from the defeated deck would be possible.  As for what happens if the discard is already at 30...maybe that's a good incentive for people to use less stalls :)

-Member roles in general:  The whole free-floating member role idea doesn't seem good to me.  It's nice that it allows teams flexibility when it comes to inactive players, but it effectively allows everyone to gang up on a single stronger/weaker team as desired unless that team is paired against a General.  I also personally disliked having nearly every team send Salvagers against us each round because they figured we'd be a prime target for Relic farming.  Also, not having members preset made match-ups a hassle to deal with.

Discarding system was pretty good.  Salvaging system was fine.  Conversions were okay too.  Matching up teams could use some improvement though, I believe:  I was disappointed that we never got to face Darkness a single time during the entirety of War even with both teams lasting until Round 7.

Spoiler for Event Cards:
May as well do this round by round.

-Round 1, Fateful Day:  I thought this one was cool.  Teams claiming that it wasn't right to force a 1 card discard during the first round seemed to be...overreacting a bit.  Discard a Pend for Christ's sake, it's not the end of the world.  But I was bothered by the deadline for the Event Card being 24 hours before the War began.  With all the new things such as scouting threads that I now needed to attend to in addition to the deadline being stated in a rather non-obvious manner, it completely slipped my mind that this needed to be done.  To my recollection last War never had anything like this, so it caught me completely by surprise.  In addition, the Round 7 Event Card had a similar feature which had a deadline in line with the beginning of the duel phase and there were no problems with it.  In the future I feel that these Event Card deadlines should be the same as deckbuilding deadlines, or if that's not possible make it blatantly obvious that there's a change.

-Round 2, Tactician, Reclaimer, Sniper, and Spy:  Aside from the random discard from Sniper, these were good.  Tactician allowed us to keep nearly everything from the deck that kept us alive for the end of the War, incidentally.

-Round 3, Full Support and Telepathic Gambit:  These were both good.

-Round 4, Feint and Voodoo Curse:  It seems like Feint should have been made 2 separate Event Cards, but was good overall; gaining a single Relic from part 2 seemed a bit weak though.  Voodoo Curse would have been bad if not for the fact that Feint was presented during the same round.  Because of this teams either had to decide between giving 3 extra upgrades to redistribute among the entire team or not get this bonus and make the possibility of one team's support team invulnerable less likely.  But I did dislike the fact that teams had no control over whether they got to face a Lt. or not, even if a team decided to send in a Lt. for that round.

-Round 5, Blitzkrieg Strategy and Guerrilla Tactics:  While both of these were good in theory, I think it states a lot about the effects of RNG in this game when everyone chooses the latter x)

-Round 6, Transdimensional Box and Desperate Times:  I didn't see much use for the former, but that may have been just me.  Desperate Times on the other hand...mmm.  Again, not a fan of the possibility of random discarding.  I'm also not a fan of not having a choice in whether or not your team might take a discard this late in the War.  I mean it would be incredibly lame to be at 60 cards, lose, and then be eliminated by a forced discard.  I suppose that you could add a rule which forbids Chaos Lord from eliminating a team though.

-Round 7, Tactical Foresight:  Liked this one.

May or may not have forgotten something.  Will reply again later if I have.
"If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals"

Forum reigned by my mixtape

Offline Jenkar

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4199
  • Country: fr
  • Reputation Power: 58
  • Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Jenkar is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.
  • Heart's made of shadows
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeChampionship League 2/2013 WinnerSlice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake6th Trials - Master of AirWinner of Revive the Archive 2!Slice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeBeginners League 1/2012 WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner5th Trials - Master of AirAvatar of Patience - Winner of the 7 Heavenly Virtues Deck CompetitionBeginners League 3/2011 3rd PlaceC-C-C-Combo Maker Winner!
Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg510390#msg510390
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2012, 07:27:30 am »
Warning:  Lotsa reading awaits.

I think I should probably break this down into sections or else I'm going to likely steer off course about 50 times.  May as well start at the beginning...

Spoiler for Auction:
I don't really have any complaints or suggestions here, actually :D  I've already said my bit on secondary auction as well.

Spoiler for Vault Construction:
About the only thing I disliked about vault building was that it seemed to severely limit the options I was able to field against each element in planning.  With Life being pretty weak in terms of PvP this meant that we were unable to bring as many counters to cards like Dim Shield as we realistically would have liked.  For example, during round 1 I wouldn't have been surprised in the slightest to see every single team use a duo with Dim Shields against us.  And though I probably would have been able to send a deck against each and every one of them that counters Dim Shield in theory, building a vault that is completely centered around countering a single card is obviously going to open up some pretty huge holes to other strategies.  However, the simplest way to fix this issue would be to essentially "fix" :life as an Element rather than modify War rules to account for various huge weaknesses that each Element may or may not have.  Therefore I cannot say that vault restrictions were really to blame for this problem. 

The lack of Grabbows throughout War was pretty refreshing.

I also dislike having vault construction take place during Propaganda page creation, especially now that there are 6 teammates to work with.  When I first noticed how many teams were having vrt produce their banner art I thought it was just out of sheer laziness, but looking back it seems pretty logical to have someone outside of the team perform that type of work while the rest is able to focus completely on vault preparations.  But as I've already said my bit on Propaganda improvements as well, I'll end on that note.

Spoiler for Support Teams + Deckbuilding Phase:
Okay, there's a lot here that I feel needs improvement. 

At the beginning of War each team is responsible for preparing for 6 matches on the main team.  The next couple of rounds don't really change much because it's unlikely that every single team will have their ~2 attackers charge into battle against everyone else.  However the later rounds become nearly intolerable.  Over the past few Wars it has been incredibly evident that Teams lose quite a bit of willpower and interest in War as it continues to play out and decks continue to be lost with each new round.  War itself compensated for this in the past by requiring teams to prepare less and less with each new round which in turn caused teams to devote less time to an event that was becoming uninteresting to them.  However, support team battles will cause teams to spend essentially the same amount of time on preparations in the later rounds as they had in the beginning, depending on how many attackers they face.  In turn, it makes the deckbuilding phase more intolerable and frustrating for losing teams than I think is desired.  Also, having to build decks and schedule matches during the same ~3 days (especially when there are quite a few teammates on the support team) is a bit too much.

Deckbuilding restrictions may need a bit of rework as well, though I'm really not sure what needs to be done.  Life had its fair share of successes and failures when attacking so I can't really say if the deckbuilding rules are slanted against anyone's favor.  Sure from the outside it looks as if attacking teams have a severe disadvantage against defenders, but performances don't exactly reflect that very well.  I'd say that the deckbuilding ruleset causes Elements with particularly big weaknesses to be placed at a disadvantage, but again, that's not exactly War's problem as much as a balancing issue that needs to be resolved within the game itself.   I enjoyed the deckbuilding quite a bit though; this kind of restrictive deckbuilding that's not bound by the numerical limitations of a vault allow for plenty fun to be had in testing, and with each new round that passes in the main team of War that's not really observed.  Also, as I've advocated a desire for my team to really get to know the Element :life during War, this really allows for that desire to become a reality more easily especially when the ones developing most of the ideas are someone other than the Master/General of the team.

I personally believe that teams should be limited to 2 or 3 members acting on a support team at a time.  This both takes away time required to prepare for the matches during the deckbuilding phase as War progresses and weakens the power of the team's defense slightly.


Miscellaneous thoughts:

-The rule allowing opposing teams to purchase someone off of your support team needs to be terminated and never return again.  I never allowed a single support team member into my team's chatroom for the simple reason that if another team somehow found a way to bribe them into joining their side then we'd be completely screwed.  And while I'd like to think this would never happen, I have no choice but to take these precautions.  As a result, support team members become completely dissociated from the actions of the main team which causes severe confusion because that member has no idea what to do for that round until instructed to do so.  In addition, this allow for an exploit of rule 8.2 and the "no sharing of vault secrets" rule if someone does not take the precautions I had.

-Generals being unable to sub for attacking support team members while the Lt. is freely able to do so doesn't make sense to me.  Generals being unable to post support team actions while the Lt. is freely able to do so doesn't make sense to me.  As far as I'm concerned the General should have the ability to do nearly everything else that their subordinates can given that they possess the highest power of their team and that they were the ones who basically gave that subordinate that power in the first place.

-Not posting each individual match-up during the later rounds was confusing considering there was no announcement indicating how things would work from that point forward.  Arranging matches became increasingly difficult as well, causing nearly all matches to be done at the last minute as everyone went crazy trying to find an opponent to face.

-Having to decide what players to send again which team before the end of the duel phase was fine except for the fact that some duels might not take place even an hour before the round ends, at which time a team's Lt. may or may not be online to observe what cards were used.

Spoiler for Duels:
Best of 5 is still great, with the addition of Relics I don't really have any complaints about the upgrade amounts either.  I'd like to give my thoughts on each member role in more detail, but considering I didn't get to benefit from their effects even once, I can't say they wouldn't be negative.  But there are a few improvements that I feel certain should be made:

-Assassins:  Random discard needs to be removed.  I understand that it doesn't make much sense for a team to have control over what its opposing team assassinates from a logical standpoint, but then again in this case no one has control over anything.  It's just completely unfair to lose access to an incredibly important card that wasn't even used during a lost duel, especially when that card may be necessary for an entire deck to function at all.  If having a team choose discards from their own vault is out of the question then maybe adding a removal of 3 cards to what's already discarded from the defeated deck would be possible.  As for what happens if the discard is already at 30...maybe that's a good incentive for people to use less stalls :)

-Member roles in general:  The whole free-floating member role idea doesn't seem good to me.  It's nice that it allows teams flexibility when it comes to inactive players, but it effectively allows everyone to gang up on a single stronger/weaker team as desired unless that team is paired against a General.

Discarding system was pretty good.  Salvaging system was fine.  Conversions were okay too.  Matching up teams could use some improvement though, I believe:  I was disappointed that we never got to face Darkness a single time during the entirety of War even with both teams lasting until Round 7.

Spoiler for Event Cards:
May as well do this round by round.

-Round 1, Fateful Day:  I thought this one was cool.  Teams claiming that it wasn't right to force a 1 card discard during the first round seemed to be...overreacting a bit.  Discard a Pend for Christ's sake, it's not the end of the world.  But I was bothered by the deadline for the Event Card being 24 hours before the War began.  With all the new things such as scouting threads that I now needed to attend to in addition to the deadline being stated in a rather non-obvious manner, it completely slipped my mind that this needed to be done.  To my recollection last War never had anything like this, so it caught me completely by surprise.  In addition, the Round 7 Event Card had a similar feature which had a deadline in line with the beginning of the duel phase and there were no problems with it.  In the future I feel that these Event Card deadlines should be the same as deckbuilding deadlines, or if that's not possible make it blatantly obvious that there's a change.

-Round 2, Tactician, Reclaimer, Sniper, and Spy:  Aside from the random discard from Sniper, these were good.  Tactician allowed us to keep nearly everything from the deck that kept us alive for the end of the War, incidentally.

-Round 3, Full Support and Telepathic Gambit:  These were both good.

-Round 4, Feint and Voodoo Curse:  It seems like Feint should have been made 2 separate Event Cards, but was good overall; gaining a single Relic from part 2 seemed a bit weak though.  Voodoo Curse would have been bad if not for the fact that Feint was presented during the same round.  Because of this teams either had to decide between giving 3 extra upgrades to redistribute among the entire team or not get this bonus and make the possibility of one team's support team invulnerable less likely.  But I did dislike the fact that teams had no control over whether they got to face a Lt. or not, even if a team decided to send in a Lt. for that round.

-Round 5, Blitzkrieg Strategy and Guerrilla Tactics:  While both of these were good in theory, I think it states a lot about the effects of RNG in this game when everyone chooses the latter x)

-Round 6, Transdimensional Box and Desperate Times:  I didn't see much use for the former, but that may have been just me.  Desperate Times on the other hand...mmm.  Again, not a fan of the possibility of random discarding.  I'm also not a fan of not having a choice in whether or not your team might take a discard this late in the War.  I mean it would be incredibly lame to be at 60 cards, lose, and then be eliminated by a forced discard.  I suppose that you could add a rule which forbids Chaos Lord from eliminating a team though.

-Round 7, Tactical Foresight:  Liked this one.

May or may not have forgotten something.  Will reply again later if I have.
+1
The madness is in each of us. Close your eyes, sing, and open your webbed wings to the silent winds.
Beautiful art : http://i.imgur.com/eUhyYCC.png

 

anything
blarg: