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Offline willng3

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491327#msg491327
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2012, 04:20:40 pm »
'k, i think this fits here : i think propaganda advertising should follow the same rules as competitions : advertise the polls in chat, okay. Advertise an element by a forum post in the votin' thhread, okay. Advertise a specific element by chat/forum pms : not okay.
Hmm yes I quite agree with this.  Otherwise you may as well expect to use this method and win even if the propaganda in itself was lackluster.
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Offline Jenkar

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491348#msg491348
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 04:42:59 pm »
I'm now for a removal of any propaganda voting whatsoever.
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Offline TheonlyrealBeef

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491360#msg491360
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2012, 04:54:46 pm »
I vouch for having a decent rule for how to deal with bugs. If a person is winning and thus has a chance of using a certain combo that causes bugs I find replaying until said person is losing, because luck doesn't allow said person to perform the bugged combo, to be a horrible solution.

The current solution has the advantage of the cause of the bug probably be forced into getting rid of said cards, but is extremely painful for the losing team. I'd personally find it ideal if the deck could be replaced with a similar deck that does not cause the bug. In the example of the occurrence this round: replace Black Nymphs with Black Dragons. It's not ideal but it would be great if both teams and/or wms could come to an agreement of a deck that is considered to be both similar as well as not causing the bug to replay with. I emphasize similar because this must not by any means be abused to change your deck into something counter-ish by purposefully adding a bugged combo into the deck.

This replacement deck would then replace the old, bugged deck in every possible way (vault, for the match etc.).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 05:28:05 pm by TheonlyrealBeef »

Offline RavingRabbid

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491379#msg491379
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 05:21:21 pm »
Remove. Propaganda. Forever.


People are just going to vote for the element they like the most, the element they're in, or the element that spammed them to vote there (I hope no one does this).
There isn't a reason to keep propaganda.
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Offline Anthraxx

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491395#msg491395
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2012, 05:42:14 pm »
I have nothing against the propaganda itself, at least some comics/banners are a good laugh. The vote for the best speech and gfx on the other hand... No thanks.
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Offline YoungSot

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491406#msg491406
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2012, 06:02:51 pm »
What about moving to some sort of judges instead of popularity? Retaining some form of quality control would be good.

Offline kev

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491448#msg491448
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2012, 07:13:23 pm »
Propaganda was created to:
- Further unite your team in the early stages of War.  Ideally multiple players would contribute from each team.
- Give War more color and take it to another level.
- Showcase the community's talents.

It's not accomplishing the above quite like it used to/is supposed to, and Brawl will do a much better job of showcasing the community's talents.  Prop will see some changes next War.  If you have an outside-the-box idea on how to replace/rework Propaganda with something fun and additive to War, reply here or PM the Warmasters.

Offline Tiko

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491456#msg491456
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2012, 07:25:00 pm »
As I said before: Just drop the bonus cards that the Propaganda "winner" recieves. The Poll should only reflect the community's view of the Teams' self-advertising and nothing more. I think any kind of 'drama' that we had now can be avoided this way.

The bonus for completing the Propaganda should be kept, though (if Propaganda will remain, of course), as it forces the teams to put in some effort at least.
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Offline willng3

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491488#msg491488
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2012, 08:00:16 pm »
Well, the biggest three alternatives that seem to be buzzing around currently are
  • Remove the reward from Propaganda voting completely (I assume the completion bonus still applies)
  • Invoke a judging system instead of a community vote
  • Remove Propaganda completely
Removing rewards:
This seems like a fairly good solution, in my opinion.  The biggest issue is of generals providing poorly done pieces for Propaganda just to satisfy the bare minimum, but I really don't mind that aspect too much myself; I would much rather prefer the pre-Round 1 phase be dedicated to Vault building, Member Roles, etc. than having to worry about Propaganda as well.  If the completion bonus doesn't apply anymore then I find it hard to believe that most Generals will bother doing Propaganda at all.

Judging system:
I would like to see this invoked since it removes the unreliability of community voting, but it seems very, very similar to what is proposed for Forum Brawl already.

Removing Propaganda completely:
At this point I'm really not against this either, but on the other hand I will acknowledge that Propaganda does serve as a great team building exercise in some cases.



The biggest issues that I'm seeing with Propaganda currently mainly involve the voting system in itself and the criteria for each part of the submission in itself. 

Many people disagree on what exactly defines a speech, and I honestly don't feel that what is outlined in the rules thread can be called a Propaganda speech when the bare minimums are followed.  A speech by definition amounts to a spoken work (in this case typed since it's over the internet), aimed at moving a target audience in favor of a particular cause or gain.  Well the requirements for Propaganda currently only make a block of text aimed towards one's team necessary.  However, much more than just that team is voting on Propaganda in general therefore you're not directly speaking to a rather sizable portion of the audience you should be targeting.  I also don't believe that any pieces of artwork except for the main banner should be presented on the main post.  If you want to give a shout out to fan-made banners then that's fine, just do it in a separate post designated for that type of thing; the rules specifically state that a Propaganda post needs a banner, meaning that all other artwork should not be part of Propaganda.  I also don't find comics speech-worthy, as humorous as they may be, but that may just be my opinion.

The voting system is probably the biggest issue.  Firstly when the advertisement for Propaganda voting explicitly states, "Go vote on who put forth the best effort and created the best banners, flags, and speeches. " then I would assume that things such as Element loyalty, who's on a particular team, or how someone convinced you to go vote on the Propaganda page should be irrelevant; it's all about the works created.  I admittedly did not vote for anyone else's Propaganda page because of the benefit the bonus may have provided me; that also needs to be taken into account with other voters.  From the rumors surrounding the whole advertising via PM issue I would say that it is incredibly likely that teams in future Wars will use PM advertising as a method to gain more votes unless it is strictly forbidden in the rules.  This is naturally a big issue because 1)  It could result in spam and seriously annoy people not participating in War and 2)  There's no telling if bribery or other impure methods were being used to garner votes.  Or let's say that during this War I was on Team Fire and PM'd someone a link to our propaganda page before telling them to go vote on the poll thread.  Well Team Fire has two images set up on the thread currently, so if I don't like the first one, but do like the second then I would suspect that might change how I would vote in the Polls since I've already seen what Fire's banners look like.  Yet another reason why I would like 1 image per Propaganda page, incidentally.

EDIT:  One final thought.  I was disappointed how the song choice played absolutely no part in how Propaganda votes were decided.  Offering bonuses on as many self-made projects as possible is good, but really what's the point of even posting a song if it doesn't make a difference in the long run?  I also spent a considerable amount of time trying to integrate the banner, speech, and song into one piece for greater effect as a whole.  Whether or not this would have given us a better chance in the voting is unknown, but I would like to receive a warning ahead of time when changes like this are made.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 02:42:40 pm by willng3 »
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Offline Cheesy111

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491495#msg491495
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2012, 08:05:48 pm »
If propaganda is kept in a state similar to how it currently is, I would hope that PM advertising is disallowed.  Will addressed my reasons in his ginormous post, so I just wanted to add my piece against PM advertisement as well.

Offline mesaprotector

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491499#msg491499
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2012, 08:13:13 pm »
I like the propaganda, and it's certainly fun to read. The voting... meh. But removing it entirely would remove some of the fun of war. I vote to keep it.
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Offline RootRanger

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Re: War #5 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37526.msg491561#msg491561
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2012, 09:34:53 pm »
I've always found it ridiculous that a card bonus was given for something completely unrelated to PvP in an almost purely PvP event. I respect that people want their speeches and artwork to compete with that of others, but it simply isn't a good idea to merge the two. War becomes less about PvP skill, and the art and speech competition has less interest because it is linked to PvP. Furthermore, people are now spamming private messages and lying in their propaganda, which is definitely not what should be encouraged in War.

I would like to propose another idea for how to solve this frustrating problem. Perhaps, Propaganda could be its own Competition that takes place as War is starting. The prize for propaganda would be a forum icon instead of bonus cards in an entirely unrelated event. Competitors would be able to submit a speech or banner for any element they like, and then the award would go to the person with the most votes. This way, propaganda remains a part of the forum, but War is not worsened because of it.

I'm not too upset, as Fire and Death would need significantly more than 9 cards before they could compete with a team as powerful as Air, although I feel sorry for the weaker teams. Hopefully, these flaws will be fixed next war.
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