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Offline majofa

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435683#msg435683
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2011, 06:41:10 pm »
I've never done it, but I'm all for strategic subbing. It adds another layer of strategy to War... 'Is it worth it to give up your salvage to play one less deck in the next round? Sometimes yes, sometimes you may have really needed the cards.' I personally would choose the cards.

We need to remember why there is even a penalty for subbing. It's so one player doesn't play every match. If you sub a match and lose, you didn't gain anything by playing with a different player, so there shouldn't be a penalty.

Offline the dictator

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435721#msg435721
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2011, 08:41:46 pm »
I have a solution:

Don't have 0 salvage rounds. They allow for free subbing. If you don't have those then you'll always have to sacrifice something to sub.

No need for fancy/complicated subbing rules.
Seconded.
Salvages also allow you to adapt your decks to make them less predictable, which is what makes war thrilling. They also force you to use decks with what you have left, which, in my opinion leads to the best war decks, those that are made with whats left in the heat of the battle.

Edit, now that the round is up:
I really dislike this endgame, it feel way too obligatory to make it end quickly. I know we don't want a lengthened war like last time, but this shorted war is even way more uncomfortable. Like, how are we going to (try to) surprise our opponents with our decks when we can't even salvage cards to adjust our vault?
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Offline Jappert

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg436966#msg436966
« Reply #110 on: December 10, 2011, 08:08:51 am »
I am a huge supporter of event cards, I love them all, even when they don't help us at all. (Round 3, net bonus, 0) it makes War less of a formula - wait for matchups, build decks, play decks, salvage, next round. If it screws with things, ah well. Mess up the war whenever you can, with things like event cards, disadvantaged will always be louder, but I am sure there are many people like me who support them the whole way.


Oh, and sportsmanship awards always seemed a little weird to me - It might just end up being a popularity contest, or not, I just think that rewarding sportsmanship is like giving a prize to people who donate or do charity. :/
As DD originally planned to post this in war feedback, I'll continue the discussion here.

Yes, DD, there are ppl like you who support event cards all the way! Naturally, I have my favorites and ones I really didn't enjoy but overall they make war much more interesting. War without event cards just wouldn't feel like war anymore!

As for your second comment I quoted, I couldn't agree less! Sportsmanship in PvP events like these are what keeps me investing in this community.
I can take my war loss vs Bjessee for example, that one really hurt from a gamer's point of view since the match was so incredibly close and I could have taken it with just a bit more luck. From a personal point of view it was my most enjoyable match this war. A very polite, friendly, chatty opponent and a very close match aswell. What more could I want? Matches like these are the reason I sign up for war and if Bjessee would have been an arrogant bastard taunting me during the match I'd have been devastated and annoyed by that loss. Since this type or sportmanship (wich has many variations) is so important for me and for the way I enjoy PvP Events, I think it deserves a proper award!

Offline Avenger

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg436974#msg436974
« Reply #111 on: December 10, 2011, 08:33:43 am »
I've never done it, but I'm all for strategic subbing. It adds another layer of strategy to War... 'Is it worth it to give up your salvage to play one less deck in the next round? Sometimes yes, sometimes you may have really needed the cards.' I personally would choose the cards.

We need to remember why there is even a penalty for subbing. It's so one player doesn't play every match. If you sub a match and lose, you didn't gain anything by playing with a different player, so there shouldn't be a penalty.
The biggest deal wasn't this. The biggest deal is: the appointed player had no 4 nymphs, but hey we have another player who has them. So, plan the deck with 4 nymphs, afterall subbing is free this round.

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg436995#msg436995
« Reply #112 on: December 10, 2011, 10:10:43 am »
I was just thinking after my round 9 match, that it would be a good idea for the next War if there was some sort of reward for winning a match in fewer games.  For instance, something like this:

Win 3-0: Winner salvages 8 cards, loser discards 27 cards
Win 3-1: Winner salvages 6 cards, loser discards 24 cards
Win 3-2: Winner salvages 4 cards, loser discards 21 cards

Right now, some matches have been extremely close 3-2 nailbiters, while others have been clear 3-0 walkovers.  This would make every game count for something.

Offline Jenkar

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg437004#msg437004
« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2011, 10:31:34 am »
I was just thinking after my round 9 match, that it would be a good idea for the next War if there was some sort of reward for winning a match in fewer games.  For instance, something like this:

Win 3-0: Winner salvages 8 cards, loser discards 27 cards
Win 3-1: Winner salvages 6 cards, loser discards 24 cards
Win 3-2: Winner salvages 4 cards, loser discards 21 cards

Right now, some matches have been extremely close 3-2 nailbiters, while others have been clear 3-0 walkovers.  This would make every game count for something.
Supporting this idea.
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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg437005#msg437005
« Reply #114 on: December 10, 2011, 10:41:17 am »
I was just thinking after my round 9 match, that it would be a good idea for the next War if there was some sort of reward for winning a match in fewer games.  For instance, something like this:

Win 3-0: Winner salvages 8 cards, loser discards 27 cards
Win 3-1: Winner salvages 6 cards, loser discards 24 cards
Win 3-2: Winner salvages 4 cards, loser discards 21 cards

Right now, some matches have been extremely close 3-2 nailbiters, while others have been clear 3-0 walkovers.  This would make every game count for something.
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Offline Jenkar

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg437014#msg437014
« Reply #115 on: December 10, 2011, 11:09:50 am »
I was just thinking after my round 9 match, that it would be a good idea for the next War if there was some sort of reward for winning a match in fewer games.  For instance, something like this:

Win 3-0: Winner salvages 8 cards, loser discards 27 cards
Win 3-1: Winner salvages 6 cards, loser discards 24 cards
Win 3-2: Winner salvages 4 cards, loser discards 21 cards

Right now, some matches have been extremely close 3-2 nailbiters, while others have been clear 3-0 walkovers.  This would make every game count for something.
Increses the difficulty of Vault management and Warmaster's workload. But I like it!
On vault managment : i believe it'd be easy to replace the W/L line in SDC by two lines (your opponent score's, your score) and adapt the vault to it.
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Offline TheonlyrealBeef

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg437015#msg437015
« Reply #116 on: December 10, 2011, 11:18:05 am »
I was just thinking after my round 9 match, that it would be a good idea for the next War if there was some sort of reward for winning a match in fewer games.  For instance, something like this:

Win 3-0: Winner salvages 8 cards, loser discards 27 cards
Win 3-1: Winner salvages 6 cards, loser discards 24 cards
Win 3-2: Winner salvages 4 cards, loser discards 21 cards

Right now, some matches have been extremely close 3-2 nailbiters, while others have been clear 3-0 walkovers.  This would make every game count for something.
I support this, too. Gives me even more motivation to troll perfect counters, even if just for that single win

As for the subbing part, I remember not doing anything of the sort last war, I also remember other teams getting bye after bye, while already being at sweet spots, while Darkness kept taking hits. We ended as but a mediocre team. Point is that if you don't strategically sub you're at a serious disadvantage, if other teams do. Darkness wouldn't have been second in standings right now if it weren't for that one strategical sub that prevented us from having to field 3 decks (third probably being a suicide).

Because of this I have a wild idea that I wish to present for discussion. Rather than having a fixed discard number, the discard would be dependent on vault size, for example if you have 98 cards you field 2 decks, each getting 24 discard and with 99 cards you field decks with 16 discard each. This idea would needs lots of tweaking and a probably cap (to prevent monstrous discards at early rounds), but would hopefully reduce the advantage of staying in sweet spots.

Finally, duels in latter rounds need more time. Whether it's one duel or 9001 doesn't matter for the participants. It's still one duel each. I've found deckbuilding to be much, much longer than needed. I spent, what, 2 hours actually building/testing decks this round? Deckbuilding can be done at any time while dueling needs a compatible time with two people from different teams. Hence it's much, much easier to find a time to build decks and building decks themselves doesn't take 3 days with so few options.

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg437497#msg437497
« Reply #117 on: December 11, 2011, 04:19:45 pm »
This post is probably biased, since Time was in the top 3 all War (fair warning!) but there was an observation I had that I wanted to address, and a possible solution, and I wanted to see what people thought.

Looking at the standings after round 9 (all finished except fire/water match) all of the teams are even (1 deck in round 10) except light, who can field 2 decks, but will only have to field one due to a bye.  Essentially, Light is now winning war and there is an 8-way tie for 2nd place.

Anyway, it seems to me a bit unfair that teams who were leading War the entire time were punished for doing so by being required to make more decks, while teams that were losing from the start got to field less decks.  This has had the result of bringing all teams into a dead heat at the end, regardless of win/loss ratio, and it's going to be pure luck who wins War, because we all have basically one deck to play now (maybe two if the vault allows) and whether we are countered or not will depend purely on the luck of the draw on which opponent we get, rather than any kind of deckbuilding or play skill.

For example, in round 9, Time beat Aether and lost to Entropy and Light.  If Time gets Entropy or Light next round, we've already lost the decks that we felt had the best chance against them, and will probably lose if we get one of those teams as an opponent, unless we underestimated one of our remaining decks or get lucky.  Conversely, some of the other teams (which for strategic reasons I won't name) have vaults that we know we can beat if we face them.
 
It seems to me that some of the teams that had a lot of losses early (but not too many to be eliminated by this point) were actually at an advantage, because they weren't required to field as many decks afterwards.  If you look at the win/loss records, for instance, you will see that Light and Darkness are in 1st and 2nd, even though Light was about in the middle of the pack all war and darkness was in the bottom half of the standings.  They have exactly a .500 W/L ratio.  Aether, with a better win/loss ratio, has been eliminated.  Time, entropy, and earth were the top 3 teams in the first 8 rounds (varying from round to round) and are now 4th, 5th, and 7th.  Fire, which I think was in last place all war, is now 6th,  and with a 10-17 record, is ahead of earth with a 33-22 record.

So, I was thinking, in future Wars, why not have a fixed number of decks that -everyone- has to use each round across the board?  For example, in rounds 1-2, everyone must field 8 decks, in rounds 3-4 seven decks, in round 5 six decks, in round 6 five decks, and so on?  (numbers definitely subject to real planning and not asspulling, but you get the idea)  If you cannot field the required number of decks at any point, you're out; i.e. if you have 149 cards in the vault and need to build 5 decks, you are eliminated.  Teams would adjust their team orders so people would still get to play in most rounds, but we'd all have to sit out once or twice.

As it stands, the earlier rounds of War ended up counting for almost nothing, beyond eliminating a few teams early like Life and Underworld.  The earliest rounds are the ones where the most skill is required, because all teams have a large vault to choose from, and there are more deckbuilding decisions to make.  The later rounds are mostly luck; as I've mentioned, the round 10 pairings are going to determine who wins this War.  Even before round 10 has started, we all know what deck everyone else is going to use in round 10 (within a few cards variation) before we've even seen which team is coming.  (well, except earth, due to their suicide :p  But even there, we know what they had the round before)

Unless the next event card is something that somehow alters what is contained in our vaults, there will be virtually no skill involved in round 10.  A card like that one event in round 8, where we could convert cards to any cards of our element, would make round 10 have skill again by adding mystery to the vaults and therefore actual decision making, so I'm really hoping for an event that will make the last round meaningful and not a toss of the dice.

Offline Zeru

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg437528#msg437528
« Reply #118 on: December 11, 2011, 05:53:00 pm »
You got it all wrong. Luck in war involves two things: matchup and RNG during battle. If you do not know what you are facing, your decisions are more luck-based. Mystery = luck = risk (interest of bank account is usually a lot lower than the expected payout from stock market for that reason) Round 1 of War is always pure luck. You go with your decks into complete unknown. There is no real strategy there. Just put 8 random starting decks and see what happens. Round 1 is a complete lottery. The best team of round 1 is simply the luckiest one. What you are suggesting is giving a bonus to the most lucky team, and you did not provide a good reason for it. Punished by playing more decks? You had an ability to make many different strategies versus many different opponents. Those opponents with 1-2 decks usually did not have the same freedom you did. You had an advantage that you did not use properly. You may have been dominating for 8 rounds, but now you don't. It's not the rules. You simply stopped winning.

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg437537#msg437537
« Reply #119 on: December 11, 2011, 06:27:40 pm »
And that's why I prefaced my post with "I may be biased" :p

I can definitely see round 1 being quite lucky; there is some skill in your own vault/deckbuilding, but predicting what your opponents will do is almost impossible.  Even if you know what the 'best' vault for someone to take is, assuming there is such a thing, your opponents might do something completely insane and stupid that just happens to counter you :p

I'm not suggesting we reward the lucky teams.  I'm actually trying to suggest we reward the most skilled teams and players.  Whether my suggestions actually do that or not is up for debate, but my intent is to reduce the luck component as much as possible.

With the current rules, the number of decks you play varies with your vault size.  The trouble with this is that it has allowed teams who have consistently lost (and not just the early rounds, but later on) to hang on because they commit to less risk with a single deck (with 9 upgrades) that is often against a deck with less upgrades.  If they are lucky with their matchups and get teams that cannot counter them, then the result is already foreordained and there is no skill involved.

Everyone knows everyone else's vaults by this point.  We could go through the match results threads in detail, make two lists right now, one of teams that Time is guaranteed to beat in round 10, and one of teams that Time is guaranteed to lose to in round 10.  (assuming an RNG that isn't completely skewed)  We could make these lists for every team.  As soon as the round 10 schedule is posted, we'll know with a very high amount of certainty who has won War.  We won't even have to play it out.

The last several rounds have been like that, to a large degree.  In almost every matchup, we've predicted both the deck we would face, based on known opponent vault contents, and whether we'd win or not, based on our own vault contents.  Last round for instance, we knew we'd beat Aether, we knew we'd lose to Light, and we knew Entropy would be too close to call, because we knew they'd use the three decks we saw.  They in turn knew (or could have known by examining the forum) the decks we used against them.

As this is my first war, I don't know whether previous wars ended with what was basically a roll of the dice, like this one will next round.  I suspect it's quite possible; look at team Fire, for instance.  They won last war, but were one of the weakest teams this war, and they have the same general, if I'm not mistaken.

Hopefully that made sense and wasn't too disjointed; I've got to run, but I'll be curious to see what people think about it.

 

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