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Offline Sevs

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435091#msg435091
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2011, 06:58:24 am »
I disagree. People should not be penalized because they are not lucky enough to have the cards they need for the deck they've been given. Bad luck at the oracle shouldn't cause people to lose cards in war. That would just make war involve even more luck. Or, is that what you want?
It isnt like he was given that deck without him knowing he didn't have 4 nymphs. And if that is considered involving more luck then yes i believe it should. Do you believe that someone should get a free sub if they don't have any luck with the spins after games and have no rares? Are you saying Torb should get to sub for everyone for free because he was lucky enough to find a mark glitch and all team darkness members get to use decks with 6 marks of darkness?

The point is that precedent shows that the lack of the card results in relics replacing that card. In this case, the time nymphs should be relics.
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Offline Jenkar

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435107#msg435107
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2011, 09:31:45 am »
You're... seriously are ignoring that for most of the war there has been a penalty for subbing?

That feels more natural than just secret sections, yeah. Only concern is if WM's go through Vaults every Round, or if it would increase work.
When we (2Jens) designed the sheet, it was made so that WMs would be able to auction vaults very rapidly (in a special part of the sheet). I believe it was also made so that they'd need to auction every round, so this solution is viable imo.
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Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435137#msg435137
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2011, 01:12:54 pm »
You're... seriously are ignoring that for most of the war there has been a penalty for subbing?
Which leads to the solution: always have a penalty for subbing.
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Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435139#msg435139
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2011, 01:15:40 pm »
This is NOT you're usual I can't meet my opponent or don't have time sub...

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435145#msg435145
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2011, 01:49:26 pm »
Substituting like this (or the popular "strategic substitution") is a perfect example of having a good set of rules that the teams then choose to exploit, forcing us to change that good set of rules into something that will most likely be worse. Kind of like we had to do with War Auction roles because of the shady backroom deals that some Generals made.

Substitutions were added to help teams finish their matches if one or more players are inactive. Substitutions were not supposed to be about influencing your Vault totals or getting past the fact that a player is missing some cards. Actions like that are the definition of exploiting because it is using the rules for something they were not meant to be used.

For War 5 we definitely need new substitution rules.

Offline Jenkar

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435147#msg435147
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2011, 01:52:49 pm »
You're... seriously are ignoring that for most of the war there has been a penalty for subbing?
Which leads to the solution: always have a penalty for subbing.
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Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435149#msg435149
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2011, 02:01:58 pm »
Substituting like this (or the popular "strategic substitution") is a perfect example of having a good set of rules that the teams then choose to exploit, forcing us to change that good set of rules into something that will most likely be worse. Kind of like we had to do with War Auction roles because of the shady backroom deals that some Generals made.

Substitutions were added to help teams finish their matches if one or more players are inactive. Substitutions were not supposed to be about influencing your Vault totals or getting past the fact that a player is missing some cards. Actions like that are the definition of exploiting because it is using the rules for something they were not meant to be used.

For War 5 we definitely need new substitution rules.
Maybe the following would work: subbing is only possible in the last day of battles, each substitution adds 6 to the next Round's discarding. This way no strategic subbing is possible and subbing always has a penalty (even subbing a lost match).
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435267#msg435267
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2011, 08:22:42 pm »
My two cents on the substitution rule:

@Sevs: I have to admit that even though what we did with the nymphs was perfectly legal, I do agree that something similar should be prevented in the next war, because it exploited a loophole in the format. 

Perhaps there should be a different kind of substitution penalty, one that always applies, and that applies whether you win or lose.  (Right now, subbing and losing costs nothing, only subbing and winning, and in round 8, subbing was free)  Maybe something like 'discard 3 cards from deck to substitute a game.  That way, for a substitute win, you'd discard 3 and salvage 6, and for a substitute loss you'd discard 27.  (assuming the 6 salvage/24 discard rules we've used most of this war)

This would also prevent people making 'strategic substitutions' to try and 'manage' their vault totals and get under the threshold to field a certain number of decks.  I don't know how many teams have used this or even realized it's possible, but we did it once to avoid having to build an additional deck the next round if we won.  (the game inthisroom subbed for me vs earth one round)  There was no reason I couldn't have played that game; we just didn't want the +6 salvage if we won, because we'd have had to play an extra deck the following round if we did.  That's also legal, but isn't in keeping with the intent of what substitutions were meant to do.  I suppose you could still make such a strategic substitution even if you used my 'discard 3 regardless of win/loss' idea, but at least it would cost something even on a match loss.

@Rootranger: I actually agree with Root's point here (a rarity for us to agree on something!) but interestingly, I once proposed a solution to this very issue in one of the other subforums and he shot it down :p  If there were ways that weren't based on luck to win nymphs and more ways to win marks (like more events giving them) then at least all of the skilled players would be able to obtain them, and this point would become less of an issue.  The marks are only worth anything vs PC, and that's probably why nobody cares that Beef has played decks with multiple darkness marks; it's never affected whether he won or lost, and is extremely unlikely to ever do so.

@scaredgirl: Pretty much agree with this entire post; it's basically what I've been trying to say above.  My sub idea would affect the situation where we had ffun play with 4 nymphs, by requiring a 3 discard penalty win or lose, but it wouldn't affect strategic substitutions at all, except by shifting the thresholds at which it becomes advantageous by 3, which still leaves the same problem. 

What about this idea?  If you substitute, we could use the same loss of salvage penalty that currently exists, but have subbing also modify the threshold for next round's # of required decks by the same amount.

Example: Team Zanzarino has 65 cards in their vault after round 3.  By the current rules, this requires them to build one deck in round 4.  (30-65 cards = 1 deck) If they win, they will salvage 6 cards and have a 71 card vault, and be required to build 2 decks, which might be undesirable.  Under current rules, they could substitute to avoid that salvage if they win.  Under my proposed idea, if they subbed, they would lose their salvage (just like this war) but the threshold for 2 decks (and all other thresholds) would drop by 6, so that they only need *60-92* cards to be in the 2 deck threshold, rather than 66-98 as normal, because of the sub. 

This would (if I've considered every possibility) prevent strategic substitution by making it impossible to avoid a threshold by giving up potential salvage.  A loss would be unaffected by these rules, but a win would be, and I think this would restore subs to their original purpose and prevent abuses.  (or at least make people pay a cost to abuse the rules)

Offline 10 men

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435278#msg435278
« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2011, 09:15:07 pm »
I would go further.. Why do I take 10-15 mins at the beginning of every war to submit the cards I have... this part would be useless if anything could be use by whoever has it. 
It is still relevant. What you have to take into consideration is that War is a Team Event. This means that if you organize your Team well your Team Skill in a certain field is higher or even greater than the best individual skill in this field. Are you not good at deckbulding? No problem if someone else on the team can help you. Little PvP experience? No problem if team members can give you a crash course or give advice during your match. Don't have any Nymphs? No problem, if...

I agree that the substitution rules need fixing in respect to taking salvage or not (I already wrote a PM to Warmasters a couple rounds ago about that). But honestly, I think for this case (the Time vs Earth matchup this round) the rules are perfect as they are - it would be a really silly metric to decide the winner of the War based on how many Nymphs an individual player has spun in the Oracle. This way, having no Nymphs doesn't make you ineligible for a War team, but it also gives people who were lucky enough a chance to stand in the spotlight and show them off.
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Offline Sevs

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435283#msg435283
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2011, 09:28:26 pm »
My two cents on the substitution rule:

@Sevs: I have to admit that even though what we did with the nymphs was perfectly legal, I do agree that something similar should be prevented in the next war, because it exploited a loophole in the format. 


I guess this is my point and I am glad you see that too. Because you find such an exploit doesnt make it right. That is like saying you found an exploit in the game, and you use it to your advantage but it is perfectly legal because it works.

That is like saying causing desyncs in PvP is perfectly legal because there are no rules against it specifically. doesnt make it right.
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suxerz

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435289#msg435289
« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2011, 09:45:57 pm »
Tweaking the numbers could probably help with the usual strategic subs, but I doubt it would address the "problem" regarding giving decks to players that do not have certain cards. IMO, losing few cards does not justify the benefit they get in using those decks.

Quote
Important! Vault doesn't really exist. Players are not given cards they take from the Vault, nor are any cards removed from their account if they lose.  Players must own the cards on their Elements game account in order to use them. If a player doesn't have a specific card in his/her account, he/she cannot use it even if that card is listed in the Vault. So try to pick cards that your team members actually have or can buy if needed.
Based on a portion of the rules above, I feel that it's somewhat expected that this particular situation shouldn't exist, but I do agree there is no specific rules to say it isn't allowed. But like SG said, it is an exploit because subs are not created for this purpose and I hope the new rules for subs will not affect the normal, honest subs.

Offline kevTopic starter

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Re: War #4 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31674.msg435292#msg435292
« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2011, 09:50:59 pm »
Two interesting ideas here worth discussion:

Maybe something like 'discard 3 (maybe 6) cards from deck to substitute a game.  That way, for a substitute win, you'd discard 3 (6) and salvage 6, and for a substitute loss you'd discard 27 (30).
What about this idea?  If you substitute, we could use the same loss of salvage penalty that currently exists, but have subbing also modify the threshold for next round's # of required decks by the same amount.

Example: Team Zanzarino has 65 cards in their vault after round 3.  By the current rules, this requires them to build one deck in round 4.  (30-65 cards = 1 deck) If they win, they will salvage 6 cards and have a 71 card vault, and be required to build 2 decks, which might be undesirable.  Under current rules, they could substitute to avoid that salvage if they win.  Under my proposed idea, if they subbed, they would lose their salvage (just like this war) but the threshold for 2 decks (and all other thresholds) would drop by 6, so that they only need *60-92* cards to be in the 2 deck threshold, rather than 66-98 as normal, because of the sub.
Maybe some combination of the above two ideas.

Btw I appreciate all the feedback, especially those who are proposing solutions rather than just pointing out problems.  Let's keep this bad boy rollin.

 

anything
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