War #3 Suggestions

[coinich]

Alright, here's my old idea for determining opponents.  Break the thing down into Tier systems of four teams each, based off of vault size from smallest to greatest.  If we include Underworld Tier 2 would contain 5 teams.  The main point of this is to determine who plays who.  Here's a table to show the percentage of chance a Tier team would have playing another.  If this is a bit bulky to produce I could probably write a small program to determine who plays who with the probability properly adjusted.  Once teams start being eliminated, the Tiers equally shrink, but if there is an odd number Tier 2 and then Tier 3 get the extra teams in that order.  Once the number of remaining teams is four or less simply discard the Tier system.  Hopefully this will prevent things such as in this war with Team Life facing Team Entropy 3 times a round when one team has a clear advantage.

The table reads across, so Tier 2 has a 25% chance of playing Tier 3.

	Tier 1	Tier 2	Tier 3
Tier 1	60%	25%	15%
Tier 2	25%	50%	25%
Tier 3	15%	25%	60%

[Scaredgirl]

Well, as I already said in like 3 other threads, I think it would be cool to have a team Mercenary.

They would basically have a rainbow Vault.

Basically, every team, once per round, can decide to take a card penalty (6-12 cards I guess) and hire a mercenary to fight one of their battles. If the merc wins the battle, then he gets to salvage cards instead of the team that hired them, and if the merc loses, then Team Mercenary discards instead of the hiring team, and the winning team salvages cards that Team Mercenary used.

Team Mercenary will be composed entirely of people who were not bidded on, like Underworld.
The team's deckbuilding rules will only be based on ONE player at a time.
So, one member of team mercenary takes cards out of the Vault, then after his battle, puts them back in again, or discards them.
Deckbuilding rules will be the same as Underworld.

Team Mercenary would be good because it offers people who did not have a chance to join a war team the ability to participate in War without necessarily actively competing. This is the main upside to this, they could easily be team rainbow in War #3.

It would also lessen the rate at which "Suicide Decks" Pop up, as the team could elect to hire a mercenary instead.

I don't know.. To me it looks like an overly complex solution to suicide decks, and is way too similar to Team Underworld (identical deckbuilding rules etc.).

Having Mercenaries in some shape or form could work, but I don't see why they would need a team.

As I said, if you hate the idea, fine, but dont hate it because its complicated, as it really isnt. Makes things for players on both sides a bit easier if anything. Also, this situation wont even come up often I think, with reduced team size.

Maybe we have a different definition for word "complex" here, but I have been working as a Warmaster for quite some time now, and I can instantly see many different steps that this idea would add to running the event. I like things that happen automatically. I also try to avoid having to manually edit standings because that also adds to complexity and the possibility of human error.

give secret section mod status to Lt? (or anyone else upon the General's discretion)

Seconded.

As I already said somewhere else, make the times the different phases and rounds end standard, just because it will make it easier to remember when a phase ends.

You're going to have to live with this, because I can't always be at the computer at any given time, no matter how hard I try.

One way to fix this would be if you always used the same time of day, regardless of when you start the topic.

Lets say the "magic hour" is 6pm.

If you start the topic at 6pm, the round will last 7 days and will end at 6 pm.
If you start the topic at 8pm (two hours late), the round will last 6 days and 22 hours and will end at 6 pm.
If you start the topic at 5pm (one hour early), the round will last 7 days and 1 hour and will end at 6 pm.

So it always ends at 6pm. When you start the topic only affects how long the round lasts.


Ah, it seems I was ninja'd.

[Boingo]

Initial thoughts:

-Smaller team size:  as with any group exercise, keeping large numbers of players engaged over extended periods is very difficult.  At the team level, it can very difficult to have 9 members involved and to build 9 decks each week, especially if a team has non-active members.  The current player-replacement for card penalty only punishes the remaining teammates, and not the player who quits/disappears.  The 9-player teams require vaults to compensate, and since it is a battle to the death, the length of the War is extended longer than it would be with smaller teams.  A smaller team size would allow for fewer matches to coordinate, smaller vaults to whittle down and less time for real-life events to interfere (holidays, family emergencies, school, etc.)

-Consider vault limits on certain cards that were over-represented in the current War.   This is not an outright ban on a card, but encourages more creative strategies and limits the same strategy being employed endlessly. Candidate: Discord.

-No back-to-back matches versus the same team opponent.  It kills variety when a player battles the same element 3 rounds in a row.

[kobisjeruk]

SG has already said that it would be 1-7 per team next war instead of 1-8 as it is right now
and i too had doubt about the length of the current war due to higher number of participants but seems to me it wont take as long as i first thought it would considering 30-card discard round will eliminate teams quickly enough
but the length was also due to the fact each round and phase is longer than previous war

banning cards...i dont know about that, seems like it would be a sensitive topic

[Glitch]

I still think pendulums should count as bi-elemental cards when determining if your deck is 50% of one element.

For instance, a life pendulum in an air mark deck counts as both a life and an air card, preventing things like the "graboid-bows" which really don't belong to any element.

[Boingo]

-Consider vault limits on certain cards that were over-represented in the current War.   This is not an outright ban on a card, but encourages more creative strategies and limits the same strategy being employed endlessly. Candidate: Discord.

banning cards...i dont know about that, seems like it would be a sensitive topic

Again, to re-emphasize:  not a ban but rather a vault limit (maybe no more than 6 copies at any given time, for example).  We already have card limits for in-element and out-of-element cards in the initial Vault, and we have limits on what Team Underworld can play in a given deck.  So, it seems, card limits are already in use.  This limit would be a bit more nuanced than those limits since it would apply to specific cards, but it seems an exceptional number of matches were decided merely on how quickly Discord went into play.  A limit of 6 would still allow for 2 decks/team/round to use Discord, so it's hardly a ban.  I'd just prefer to see other strategies, and since there is a 50% threshold for in-element cards in deck-building, there is an obvious advantage to elements that easily synergize with (or are Team Entropy).

Again, this is a suggestions forum, so I'm simply making a suggestion.  I picked Discord as an example since it was the first to come to mind.  There could easily be other cards decided by the War masters, War veterans or the forum in general.

[QuantumT]

I still think pendulums should count as bi-elemental cards when determining if your deck is 50% of one element.

For instance, a life pendulum in an air mark deck counts as both a life and an air card, preventing things like the "graboid-bows" which really don't belong to any element.

The problem with that though is the elements that gain the most from being able to run those mostly off-color decks are the weaker ones. If you take that away from them, then it will be even harder for them to compete than it already is.

[catalyzeme]

I still think pendulums should count as bi-elemental cards when determining if your deck is 50% of one element.

For instance, a life pendulum in an air mark deck counts as both a life and an air card, preventing things like the "graboid-bows" which really don't belong to any element.

The problem with that though is the elements that gain the most from being able to run those mostly off-color decks are the weaker ones. If you take that away from them, then it will be even harder for them to compete than it already is.

I agree with QuantumT here. Additionally, changing pendulum rules in this way would make deck creation from salvaged cards much harder. Being able to use 10+ pendulums in a deck means you can salvage cards like Permafrost, Bone Wall, Rain of Fire, Dragons, Antimatter, etc. and actually be able to use them. Salvaging already has limited usefulness (I bet once the war is done, you'll be able to look back and see a lot of conversions to pillars/pendulums that were salvages from the same round), I think counting pendulums as half would make deckbuilding too hard for some elements early, and make salvaging unnecessarily difficult for everyone.

Plus, I sort of like the graboid-bow. Each element still has to add their own flare to the tune of 15 cards to make it work, except for earth and entropy which could add fewer element and more rainbow cards (assuming a 6 nova, 6 graboid base). For example, 's graboid-bow with adrenashriekers and heals has a very Life feel to it, even using graboids.

[guy_fawkes]

i had this idea, i think it's simple, but it changes things a lot...
i'll just put it here:

VAULT can only be made by cards of a different element than the main element.
Deckbuilder can use UNLIMITED cards from their own element and the cards from the vault.
The 50% rule of own element is still enforced.

Discarding (6 cards x round, every round) only works on VAULT CARDS, so if you lost using a mono of you own color you don't discard anything.

The war goes on till a fixed number of rounds are played, every team faces every other element an equal number of times (there's no more eliminations based on vault count).
The scoring system is like a championship: 2-0 : 3 points Winner, 0 points Loser | 2-1 : 2 points Winner, 1point Loser.
The top 4 elements at the end of the rounds face each other in elimination style, starting from semifinals (master fights master, salvages fights salvager and so on...9 battles total, team that scores 5 points advances to final)

Opens to discussion and criticism

[kobisjeruk]

^too abusable and doesnt encourage creativity

"Restrictions breed creativity" -MaRo

unlimited means we could be seeing (just an example) 8 stall/deckout deck from light or 8 graboid rush from earth
they way it is right now, you could make some stall etc but you're limited to all that you've got in vault
i understand you thought of this to solve some problem we're facing using the current method but i like the way it is better, we just need to flesh out a few details to make everything smooth, not totally revamping the whole thing

[guy_fawkes]

making 8 of the same deck is a nonsense, since you are facing different opponents and since you can be predictable if you use just one type of deck...
anyway le'ts take your example, team : if it's team EARTH, they could abuse earth powerful cards like graboids... you know, we've seen more graboids from darkness than earth this war

and creativity is still there: unlikely a mono deck can be stronger than a duo deck... so you still have to use your vault wisely to make good decks.

You want restrictions? place a max total of each card restricted to 18.. no more than 18 graboids in all earth decks...

i simply don't like the idea that with pendulums and restrictions on you own element,  teams lost a lot of identity...

[Skydaemon]

I sort of like guy_fawkes' idea.  I don't think the "abuse" potential would really be all that big a deal since it comes from own element.

If you knew earth could field 8 graboid decks instead of just 4 would you really ignore the possibility they might use them against your team?  Even if we have 8 matchups and 4 graboid decks, all 8 opponents need to consider facing it.  It's not like it's a random thing out of the blue that wasn't on their radar.  If it features strongly in lots of the decks we want, odds are we started with a lot of them as it is.

And anyway, a lot of successful decks are ones with off element components, precisely because it makes more sense for opponents to prepare to handle on-element threats than off-element ones, even if they know the option exists.  Those are still limited.

Take an example from darkness.  How many devourer decks will you field before people get wise to it?  Is that abuse, or is that just part of the danger of fighting darkness and something teams should have to always respect as an element specific option?  If you field 9 devourer decks in round one, then find some completely new darkness terror to field across the board in round 2, is that abuse, or the dangers of fighting elemental masters that happen to have those options?  In some ways, the always-a-threat option is just elemental flavor.  Why should some teams worry almost as much about devourer decks from earth as they do from darkness anyway?  If darkness happens to lose all 4 of it's inital devourer decks, should other teams stomp through the next round knowing the masters of darkness can't produce a devourer?  I'm not sure a set of bad matchups should remove elemental strengths like that.

The only thing the war would lose is the ability to predict when elements ran out of specific own-element cards.  Early on, that would only point to cards they didn't want enough to bring anyway.  For the first 4 rounds you'd never be sure what got discarded.  For round 6+ it would affect that.  Is that a huge deal?  In some ways I like that part because it gives vault tracking more prominence, in other ways I dislike it, because wars based on attritional attributes like that have a sort of monopoly-type ending phase to them.  The losing player knows they're dead half an hour before it actually happens and they play through bleeding out until they're finally bankrupted.  The game is really over at the 2/3 point in all but name.  You'd still benefit from tracking off element vault options, but you could never rule anything out within element.

His idea does allow elements to adapt somewhat after it becomes clear what deck ideas you brought are suitable and which aren't.  For example, you could see elements like gravity decide to turn every discord deck they beat into another discord/blackhole deck.  Or maybe something brand new pops up when they get an interesting salvage.  In some ways that's a bit annoying, in other ways it means you can't ignore the strengths of an element mid-war because they happened not to load up on huge stockpiles of blackholes or something before initial contact.  If in round 3 a team only has one deck that works, expect to see a lot of it rather than just watching them die.  It also helps teams take better advantage of salvage.  Maybe gravity takes the discords precisely because they can swap in new blackholes to go with it.  Maybe time only takes momentum salvages because they can swap in dune scorps.  Maybe darkness pulls out a voodoo deck when it wins a set of gravity pulls.  I think one result is the weakest decks from the first rounds probably get swapped to something new.  Meaning elements remain dangerous more based on their creativity and adaptability rather than their initial vault guesses.  You ability to predict upcoming decks from opponents has as much to do with their salvage opportunities as vault tracking.

You'd also probably see more usage of on-element nymphs or cards that are only good upped (think antlions).

I could go either way with guy_fawkes idea or some variant of it.  I like the way it is now, but I also like the increased elemental danger/flavor and adaptability his idea suggests.