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Offline RavingRabbid

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg355468#msg355468
« Reply #360 on: June 23, 2011, 05:56:59 pm »
No need to rub salt in aether's wounds. Regardless of how this war ends they should be commended for how well they represented their element.
As should Water.
Rubbing salt in Water's wounds is quite a solution.



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Offline Marvaddin

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg355520#msg355520
« Reply #361 on: June 23, 2011, 07:15:41 pm »
I do agree best of 5 would have been infinitely better.  And yeah desync's really ended u making this card's effect much worse. Event cards do seem to cause a lot of extra drama eh?
I disagree about best of 5. More games mean that if you got a bad match up you have even less chances of victory. RNG anyone? If we are trying to eliminate luck, what about best of 13? :P

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg355525#msg355525
« Reply #362 on: June 23, 2011, 07:21:11 pm »
I do agree best of 5 would have been infinitely better.  And yeah desync's really ended u making this card's effect much worse. Event cards do seem to cause a lot of extra drama eh?
I disagree about best of 5. More games mean that if you got a bad match up you have even less chances of victory. RNG anyone? If we are trying to eliminate luck, what about best of 13? :P
Mostly because that's not practical. takes too much time.

Offline truddy02

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg355532#msg355532
« Reply #363 on: June 23, 2011, 07:32:04 pm »
Best of 5 is what most other events tend to do.  If you can get a reasonably close matchup you can still win with an underdog deck.  The only disadvantage I really see is since it is the same deck, where many events you can change decks, it could be a bit repetitive.  But I think this only happens one deck has very little chance anyways and in that case you probably only add 1 more match.  In matches with close decks it could actually add to the excitement and in-match strategy to have 1-2 more matches added. 

Offline Sevs

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg355560#msg355560
« Reply #364 on: June 23, 2011, 08:09:53 pm »
or we make it really complicated and make it so if you win the first 2, counts as a win(uneven decks) but if the first 2 were split then best of 5 (more even decks).

Or we could just make them all best of 9001.
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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg355567#msg355567
« Reply #365 on: June 23, 2011, 08:16:53 pm »
Saline? Dear lord, that was horrible. x)
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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg355631#msg355631
« Reply #366 on: June 23, 2011, 10:37:08 pm »
Saline? Dear lord, that was horrible. x)
Lol.. that was almost rep worthy.

Offline RavingRabbid

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg355863#msg355863
« Reply #367 on: June 24, 2011, 07:45:26 am »
Saline? Dear lord, that was horrible. x)
Lol.. that was almost rep worthy.
That was a very tasty joke.
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Offline kev

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg356002#msg356002
« Reply #368 on: June 24, 2011, 04:02:31 pm »
War is winding down now and I thought I'd give some feedback on things I'd like to see changed for War4.

Determining Opponents
0-29 cards=team is eliminated
30-71 cards=1 player fights
72-107 cards=2 players fight
108-143 cards=3 players fight
144-179 cards=4 players fight
180-215 cards=5 players fight
216-251 cards=6 players fight
252-287 cards=7 players fight
288+ cards=8 players fight
In prior Wars teams played as many decks as they were capable of building.  This table, new for War3, was designed to keep smaller vaults concealed.  It worked, but it's also serving to lengthen the War and aid teams who have been beaten down.  In R11 the four teams that had 60-68 cards were given a stay of execution, both because they were able to lose with their "final deck" and build another "final deck" the following round, and because being able to use only half your vault is a tremendous advantage.  I think the rule change was given a trial run and it's time to go back to the simpler method.  If you don't want your vault to be transparent...

Quote from: Scaredgirl in probably 80 different threads
Don't lose.
Event Cards
Scrap them.  Rule variations that promote creative thinking and a step outside the routine of War is a noble goal.  But feedback is very consistently net negative, Cards are perceived as unbalanced no matter which one is drawn, War is already complex and requires creative thinking, and War would not be monotonous if it was shorter.  Which leads me to...

Length of War
I think we should target 10 rounds.  Getting rid of the above table is a start, but we could also consider starting discard at 12 or 18 rather than 6, varying team size and/or starting vault, etc.  The average starting vault was 34 cards higher in War3 than War2 despite having smaller teams.

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg356011#msg356011
« Reply #369 on: June 24, 2011, 04:30:21 pm »
I agree wholeheartedly with kev's points.  These are the 3 things that I would most like to see changed.  As to the early discards, I think starting at 15 or 18 and increasing by 3 each time would work well to move things along and get to 30 discards the same round or 1 later. 

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg356024#msg356024
« Reply #370 on: June 24, 2011, 04:48:45 pm »
I think that's a well articulated post kevkev - thanks

Determining Opponents
I agree that an unintended consequence of providing space for running stall decks in war was the silly stuff that's happening with teams at 60ish cards. I also think that it was changed from a 30 requirement for a reason - instead of choosing a number such as 30 or 36 for the requirement at each level we could build a sliding scale

0-29 cardsTeam is eliminated
30-62 cards1 player fights
63-95 cards2 players fight
96-129 cards3 players fight
130-165 cards4 players fight
166-201 cards5 players fight
202-238 cards6 players fight
239-276 cards7 players fight
277+ cards8 players fight
This table changes the bottom end to closer to a 30 card system and leaves the top end closer to a 36 card system - hopefully this allows teams running multiple decks to have the option of running larger decks and at the same time solves or at least limits the problems of teams getting 2 losing rounds in a row with 1 deck.

Event Cards
I too love the idea - but it seems difficult to come up with something that is well balanced. My suggestion would be to eliminate them for now - with a plan on them returning to war once all the other wrinkles are worked out.

Length of War
War is a long event - I understand that - but I agree it is likely a little too long - as long as we consider when  :underworld enters the war - adjusting the length shouldn't be too much of an issue
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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg356102#msg356102
« Reply #371 on: June 24, 2011, 06:21:56 pm »
*things*
I agree mostly with kevkev, but I think I'll add my thoughts about the Event, since this is feedback.

I think we still need to decide what War really is. I find that most people disagree on that subject, and that there are a lot of different points of view over what is the true essence of War.
What I think we can agree on is this:
- War is the biggest and most rewarding (in community terms) event. It is the place where the best players are picked and play against each other.
- War is tied to the twelve different elements. Underworld's a bonus. A War team represents its element in the eyes of the community.
- War is planned PvP. You may not switch your deck, therefore deckbuilding is almost always more important than actual gameplay. Some notable exceptions on this rule (say, Dogg) but this is mostly true.
- War has Vaults. Your cardpool as a team is preset and you have to play your decks based on a set amount of cards with very little or no possibility to change them to adapt to the enemy. Using TStar's very nice words: War is about predicting the meta and building a Vault to counter that meta. Vault building is more often than not the single most determinant factor in War.
- War should be fun, not only for partecipants but for spectators too.

As such, the goals that the War rule system should aim for are the following:
1) Epicness. This is essential to War, and as such should be enhanced in every possible way. This is obtained in a number of ways that, up until now, have been pursued. However, epicness fails when it's not backed up by fun.
2) Fun. This is what lacked in the latest parts of this War, mainly due to it lasting for too long. In order to increase fun, though, reducing paperwork and "homeworks" and increasing strategy, tactics and actual gameplay is needed, as well as reducing the total time invested.
3) Strategy. This is what Event Cards were supposed to introduce - they failed big time. The problem is that the system of Event Cards is flawed as it is (see below). I think adding a new strategical dimension for War while drastically reducing the paperwork component will bring teams to devote themselves to the Event - for a limited amount of time, of course - with actual intelligent teamwork instead of brainless office work.

Regarding Event Cards:
Event Cards are a randomized stack of effects that last for one War round. The point of EC is to introduce strategical thinking, forcing players to adapt to a new situation or suffer consequences. This may be done on different levels, and with prizes instead of punishments but the result is the same nonetheless: you adapt to the Card or pay something.
War, though, is conditioned by starting Vault. Salvaging isn't really enough to change this point: you will play what wins between the decks that you brought to War. The actual impossibility to adapt is the source of the problem for EC. By having fixed Vaults every possible event will favor one of the teams, and more importantly, the Team in question will be random and not subject to strategical thinking, because nothing is going to change your Vault.
Thus, the EC system is in my opinion strongly flawed in its essence, and should be substituted altogether by something that has the same aims but not the same structure.

I think epicness has been achieved already by the work of Scaredgirl and other forum staff members.
In order to increase fun I agree with kevkev's opinion of a 10-round War (about two months), but I think a complete revision of Vault managing is in order. The "homework effect" is the worst possible thing to happen to a free online game - people grow tired and have no reason whatsoever to put up with it.
In order to increase strategy, a system that is an alternative to Event Cards that actually increases strategical thinking on War needs to be introduced.

Now, I will point out an example that should be kept in our collective view when we talk about these subjects: Grid.
That event, with the only organization provided by Gyro (which is awesome by the way) has reached to objectives that War had and that it never really reached. First of all, the fun: everybody playing (with maybe the exception of some of the losing players) will tell you that event is just great fun. This is because the pace is nice, the deckbuilding is challenging and there is an element of strategical thinking that creates a hard and intresting meta.
Second, the events: those are actually worth their salt. This however depends on the fact that Grid offers to every player the same options, thus having the impossibility to actually create imbalance. Nobody is restricted in their deckbuilding except by the impositions everybody has.

As it is, War cannot achieve these results using the same methods, unless we radically change our concept of War. Thus, the only two alternatives I have seen are these: either scrap Vaults or build on a different ground. Here are two possible editings of War rules that follow those guidelines. Credits to all those who had these thoughts before me, if they did.

Scrap Vault managing. Every team has a number of decks they can field based on remaining cards and matchups and general War play is kept the same, but instead of having a starting Vault with copies of cards, Teams create their starting Vault imposing on themselves deckbuilding rules. One rule is imposed to all, and that is the 50% rule - essential to the representation of Elements by Teams - and grants (say) 150 starting cards. Or zero, depends on the balance of the system. The rest of deckbuilding rules can be "bought" (or sold?) by adding a proper number of cards to their starting Vault. For instance, the rule "may not use a certain off-element card" will net you 6 more cards, while the rule "may not use a certain in-element card" will net you 12 more cards. A rule list will be created by collective effort and will be made public. The chosen deckbuilding rules will be kept secret, however. That way, you take away every Vault managing problem, leaving only the legal decks problem - which is not that hard to deal with. You destroy every homework feeling of the Event, leaving only metagame, planned PvP, deck testing and all that. You can - and by all means should - keep the Event Cards system, and possibly enhance it even further, since now teams can and should be able to adapt their decks and strategies.

This is a completely new Event though.

For Vault managing, completely automatize it, as it is too much pressure on the team and takes a lot away from the fun. Use decklists to check everything in the official Google Docs. Leave it to Warmasters only, and make it public but ineditable. War teams must post their decks and Warmasters will put decklists into the document and it will check if everything is legal and ok. Make it so that discarding is either randomized - and automated - or total - every lost match is a lost deck. Scrap salvaging from the enemies' deck and add bonus cards for won matches. These will be chosen by the players and they will create a decklist with those, which will be put by the Warmasters in the big Vault document and everything will be automatically added. As for conversion, teams will make a decklist with conversion targets, choose either Pillars or Pendulums each round and will receive the proper amount - again, by an automated google docs activated easily by Warmasters.
In order to increase strategical thinking in a War with streamlined Vault managing, you need to add other variable elements. Event Cards are a no-go as adaptability is not introduced. One of the most important parts of real-world War is strategic fielding and movement. Add that to War, take away other useless complications. Learn from tactical wargames.
For instance, add a map. Add a movement phase during deckbuilding that allows for teams - or even for single players, although that will require a lot more work and I wouldn't recommend it - where teams can move about, gaining advantages and disadvantages from their position. I think a square-tiles map with special tiles that grant bonuses / bestow penalties and an incentive for movement (such as bonus cards are dropped as reinforcements in different areas or bonus against teams in a disadvantageous position against you - and no clear advantage point - or yet again forced movement due to lost games / won games / something.
The reason this would work better than Event Cards is that is is a completely parallel thing compared to deckbuilding and matches - and should be kept that way to work. As such, and as everybody is granted the same options on that level of gameplay, it is inherently balanced, can be created in a way that rewards intelligent thinking and teamwork, and adds a new dimension with a lot less homework effect but a lot more intresting options to the Event, which are also very flavorful and open up for a more intresting War by spectator's point of view too.

Tl; dr version: in order to keep things intresting reduce homework and add strategy. In order to do that either scrap Vaults or build an alternate, parallel system that implements strategic thinking on a level which is, and should be, different from the deckbuilding level.
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