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Offline Boingo

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg341767#msg341767
« Reply #264 on: May 28, 2011, 03:08:07 am »
Nota bene: I don't have a technical solution for this problem, but I have confidence there are many in the community who could remedy it.

As best as I can tell, this War has seen no fewer than 295 cards in penalties (so far.)  That's a lot of cards.  It is possible to attribute these card losses to carelessness, laziness or attempts at cheating on the part of the teams but this explanation would besmirch the good names of the players on the majority of teams (8/13 teams have been penalized so far.)  I think the problem lies in difficulty in managing the vault efficiently.  We should have (and I suspect some teams do have) efficient tools to keep card tallies/salvages/discards/etc which assist greatly in keeping the books up-to-date and accurate.  I propose that all teams be given these tools as part of the starting package in order that we not have needless losses of cards outside of battles.

The purist in me will protest (ever so slightly) that freely distributing these tools to every team takes away the advantage from the players (and their teams) who possess the skills and ingenuity of designing spreadsheets (or other tools) which make the card-accounting tasks more accurate.  On the other hand, I think most would agree that card losses are preferable on the battlefield as opposed to on the ledger books.

At ~5% of the maximum vault sizes, 295 cards lost this War (so far) is more than Team Underworld ever had and means at least 9 matches/decks not played.  Let's lose our cards the fun way, save the Warmasters a few headaches and come up with and implement a better system.  Are you with me?
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Offline Shantu

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg341849#msg341849
« Reply #265 on: May 28, 2011, 04:49:19 am »
About the Elemental cards idea: It could be restricted to the types of cards, to prevent turning a Nova into a Discord. So for Death, it would look like this:
Death - Pillars/Pendulums
Death - Permanent
Death - Creatures
Death - Spells

So you divide the cards into the four types, which would restrict things while keeping much of the freedom. This would also solve the conversion problem.

About the penalties: I like dictator's idea. If it could be made and it worked flawlessly, it could really lower the amount of penalties. No more vault-fails, unless the teams fail at the SDPC or deckbuilding.

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg341920#msg341920
« Reply #266 on: May 28, 2011, 08:27:06 am »
Nota bene: I don't have a technical solution for this problem, but I have confidence there are many in the community who could remedy it.

As best as I can tell, this War has seen no fewer than 295 cards in penalties (so far.)  That's a lot of cards.  It is possible to attribute these card losses to carelessness, laziness or attempts at cheating on the part of the teams but this explanation would besmirch the good names of the players on the majority of teams (8/13 teams have been penalized so far.)  I think the problem lies in difficulty in managing the vault efficiently.  We should have (and I suspect some teams do have) efficient tools to keep card tallies/salvages/discards/etc which assist greatly in keeping the books up-to-date and accurate.  I propose that all teams be given these tools as part of the starting package in order that we not have needless losses of cards outside of battles.

The purist in me will protest (ever so slightly) that freely distributing these tools to every team takes away the advantage from the players (and their teams) who possess the skills and ingenuity of designing spreadsheets (or other tools) which make the card-accounting tasks more accurate.  On the other hand, I think most would agree that card losses are preferable on the battlefield as opposed to on the ledger books.

At ~5% of the maximum vault sizes, 295 cards lost this War (so far) is more than Team Underworld ever had and means at least 9 matches/decks not played.  Let's lose our cards the fun way, save the Warmasters a few headaches and come up with and implement a better system.  Are you with me?
Well, I'm working on a spreadsheet now that will automatically update the vault after the salvager (or another team member of course) puts in the codes for the right cards.
First screeny:


The warmasters (of which I might be one next war) will be able to use that same spreadsheet to check the decks and the salvagings and discardings
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Skydaemon

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg341932#msg341932
« Reply #267 on: May 28, 2011, 09:15:22 am »
The purist in me will protest (ever so slightly) that freely distributing these tools to every team takes away the advantage from the players (and their teams) who possess the skills and ingenuity of designing spreadsheets (or other tools) which make the card-accounting tasks more accurate.  On the other hand, I think most would agree that card losses are preferable on the battlefield as opposed to on the ledger books.
Sounds fine to me.

I never saw the deckcheck spreadsheet as much of an advantage.  I'd assume most, if not all, teams had their own versions running.  That one is just dealing with the accounting, some teams have other tools for advantages.  Handing that out would partially fix one of the disadvantages team underworld faces as well.  By the time UW enters the war, teams already have their tools built and in place, whereas UW just formed their team.  Handing them some basic starter tools is probably a good idea.

Also if every single team used the exact same spreadsheet format (just for deck/vault check stuff), Kael or whichever warmaster does next war might be able to auto import each of the teams to do a full audit every round.  So there's probably some minor advantage to standardizing it.

//edit - Come to think of it, you could embed the spreadsheet directly into the round deck and salvage threads if someone had permission on the teams.  If the SS's were owned by a warmaster, they could disable editing at the cutoff time.

PS: I wonder how many of those penalties were an indirect result of the multiple masters and players abandoning the war.  Tools aren't going to fix people that don't show up to do the task.

suxerz

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg341951#msg341951
« Reply #268 on: May 28, 2011, 10:28:51 am »
About the Elemental cards idea: It could be restricted to the types of cards, to prevent turning a Nova into a Discord. So for Death, it would look like this:
Death - Pillars/Pendulums
Death - Permanent
Death - Creatures
Death - Spells

So you divide the cards into the four types, which would restrict things while keeping much of the freedom. This would also solve the conversion problem.
I don't think that's a good idea. Adding unnecessary complexity should be avoided. I wouldn't dare to imagine the human errors that could happened due to this.

The purist in me will protest (ever so slightly) that freely distributing these tools to every team takes away the advantage from the players (and their teams) who possess the skills and ingenuity of designing spreadsheets (or other tools) which make the card-accounting tasks more accurate.  On the other hand, I think most would agree that card losses are preferable on the battlefield as opposed to on the ledger books.
Sounds fine to me.

I never saw the deckcheck spreadsheet as much of an advantage.  I'd assume most, if not all, teams had their own versions running.  That one is just dealing with the accounting, some teams have other tools for advantages.  Handing that out would partially fix one of the disadvantages team underworld faces as well.  By the time UW enters the war, teams already have their tools built and in place, whereas UW just formed their team.  Handing them some basic starter tools is probably a good idea.
This is just my personal opinion; your statement above, Skydaemon (esp. the highlighted part); has put an impression to me that if tools were given to every team, people like myself (who sux at PvP, deckbuilding, testing and everything else) has no asset left to secure a place in the war bidding (that is assuming there're other people as worthless as myself >.<). Aside being selfish, I do agree that "card losses are preferable on the battlefield as opposed to on the ledger books". So, I guess I need to stop being selfish.  :P

...snip...
//edit - Come to think of it, you could embed the spreadsheet directly into the round deck and salvage threads if someone had permission on the teams.  If the SS's were owned by a warmaster, they could disable editing at the cutoff time.
I don't think that's a good idea. Enabling editing could open up the possibility for an exploit of previous rounds' data or even messing up the formulas. Also, I believe only SG is able to embed stuff on a thread. IMO, too much unnecessary work.

....snip...
Well, I'm working on a spreadsheet now that will automatically update the vault after the salvager (or another team member of course) puts in the codes for the right cards.
First screeny:


The warmasters (of which I might be one next war) will be able to use that same spreadsheet to check the decks and the salvagings and discardings
Based on the screen shot, I assume that you need to have at least 10~11 premade tabs with the same content (SPDC input). Then, I think you will have one dedicated tab to compile all the data from those 10~11 tabs to produce a result in another tab, which is the vault itself. So, basically, despite having one "vault tab" for each round, you will have one "SPDC tab" for each round; and only 1 "vault tab". Am I right so far?  :D

Anyways, my point is I hope this new vault stuff will be able to record vault history, same as what we currently have; at least is one way or the other. On a surface, I don't think what's you're working on have an efficient way of keeping the history. Though I'm no expert in auditing stuff, but I would imagine to do it properly, you need to have an easy access of data history - the easier to tell the origin of the cards, the better it is for audit.

Few words of advice - need lots and lots of foolproof instances in that spreadsheet. Naming a few: user input tab shouldn't have formulas (googlesh*t can't lock individual cell), mark-code friendly, avoid macros (I don't think it's needed), use variables instead of definite numbers because some might change due to event cards and lastly pray that people won't mess it up.  ::)

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg341962#msg341962
« Reply #269 on: May 28, 2011, 10:56:08 am »
This is just my personal opinion; your statement above, Skydaemon (esp. the highlighted part); has put an impression to me that if tools were given to every team, people like myself (who sux at PvP, deckbuilding, testing and everything else) has no asset left to secure a place in the war bidding (that is assuming there're other people as worthless as myself >.<). Aside being selfish, I do agree that "card losses are preferable on the battlefield as opposed to on the ledger books". So, I guess I need to stop being selfish.  :P
What a useless team I have then, since you're one of the most useful members... :(
Why are you reading this cloaked text? The sentence was simply a pun meant to say you're not that useless :P

suxerz

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg342026#msg342026
« Reply #270 on: May 28, 2011, 01:50:05 pm »
I see what you did there...   :D

Offline TheonlyrealBeef

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg343713#msg343713
« Reply #271 on: May 31, 2011, 05:02:57 am »
Hmm, I just had this thought, I don't like the way byes are given.
Currently, a team (read Time) can end up higher than teams who still have the ability to field several whole decks (read Darkness, Death, Entropy, Earth) but are bound to go down fast. Can't really think of some way to fix it, but I'd be embarrassed if it would cause Darkness to end below Time -_- (no offense to the active players from team Time).

EngPhys

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg343730#msg343730
« Reply #272 on: May 31, 2011, 05:41:11 am »
Hmm, I just had this thought, I don't like the way byes are given.
Currently, a team (read Time) can end up higher than teams who still have the ability to field several whole decks (read Darkness, Death, Entropy, Earth) but are bound to go down fast. Can't really think of some way to fix it, but I'd be embarrassed if it would cause Darkness to end below Time -_- (no offense to the active players from team Time).
Possible solution: Top team in War is given the option to field a deck against the odd team out, perhaps with no discard penalty for losing or at least a diminished discard, keeping the benefit of salvaging. If the top team wishes not to exercise this right (not enough cards or doesn't want to reveal vault), the next highest team is given the same option, thus eliminating byes unless NO teams wish to face the team with the bye.

suxerz

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg343735#msg343735
« Reply #273 on: May 31, 2011, 05:54:27 am »
Can't remember who said this in chat, but IIRC the suggestion is to omit byes given to teams with only 1 player left. The byes should be given to the team that is able to field 2 or more players with lowest vault count; that is if possible. However, I'm not sure whether this is balanced enough.

Offline Sevs

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg343736#msg343736
« Reply #274 on: May 31, 2011, 05:56:59 am »
Can't remember who said this in chat, but IIRC the suggestion is to omit byes given to teams with only 1 player left. The byes should be given to the team that is able to field 2 or more players with lowest vault count; that is if possible. However, I'm not sure whether this is balanced enough.
I actually like this idea a lot. It makes sense because someone from the team still has to fight without giving "immunity"
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Kael Hate

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Re: War #3 - Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=23298.msg343757#msg343757
« Reply #275 on: May 31, 2011, 06:56:40 am »
I think a bye should be randomly given as an odd player. (using this current pairings system)
Everyone elses match is set randomly, so should the bye.

 

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