War #3 - Feedback

[pikachufan2164]

I dont quite understand war rules all the way, so ignore my ignorance please. If Im not mistaken, if you win with a sub, you dont get to salvage as much, am I correct? If so, and it isnt like this already, losing to a sub shouldnt be as harsh either.

Sub wins are zero-salvage unless a 50/50 sub agreement has been made with the Warmasters, or the Event card overrides the rule.

[BluePriest]

I dont quite understand war rules all the way, so ignore my ignorance please. If Im not mistaken, if you win with a sub, you dont get to salvage as much, am I correct? If so, and it isnt like this already, losing to a sub shouldnt be as harsh either.

Sub wins are zero-salvage unless a 50/50 sub agreement has been made with the Warmasters, or the Event card overrides the rule.

Ok, I thought there was something dealing with if a sub wins. The main suggestion was to have a reduced penalty for losing to a sub.

[LongDono]

Ok a few suggestions. ( lil rant at the start. )
First of all it sucks that if Underworld has anything less than a near pefect start that atleast one player will be out of the war. 6-2 is an awesome start, and will still be punished. Going down to 7 players when we did so well willl feel like a shallow victory. ( So far we are 4-2, I am not saying we will win the next 2 but even if we did we would be down 1 player. ) As it stands Underworld needs a 7-1 round NOT to go down by one player. I suggest making the player limit based on vaults go down just a little so that this wont happen. To do that well and still lose a player makes you feel rotten.

I noticed Upped cards are talked about alot. ( with Generals and everything. ) What about take upped cards out of war altogether? What challenge would there be in fighting a general or Lt instead of skill you ask? Well lets remove a little of the deck limits. Generals only need to have 30%+ of thier deck be thier element but no element can surpass your teams element in card %. Lts it would be 40%. This change would also make it so the best player can be general of underworld and not want to give it up due to a lack of electrum/upgraded cards. ( Yes I know, Neo gave me generalship because of that very reason. ) So I am not saying this because I think I will be able to use it more than others or anything selfish like that, I honestly think it would be good for the war. Generals and Lts still have an advantage but it is not as crushing. Also yes 6 upgraded cards or even 3 can decide a whole match.
Bring Back rookies. ( Oh yes I went there, get over it. ) I suggest it change a little though. Have it so rookies can only fight other rookies. ( RNG cheat so the same ones dont fight eachother over and over again ) This can also bring new event cards, where a team must teach and trust their rookie to win. ( For the event. ) It is a good way to get into war. Also because of the "omg they always quit and leave" factor make it free to replace rookies. Also if you noticed alot of players just quit this war, I think it just so happened that alot that did LAST war happened to be rookies.
 Make team size 7 and then 1 rookie for each team. The General already is said to make things go to plan and stuff so have them also be duel org. ( Some already take that position. )

Also because of rookies more "good" players will find their way on the underworld tournament, but as we found out they don't win too often in UW. What that would do though is give a chance for someone with war exp to help team underworld out.

Just random thoughts.

[artimies7]

...

Sounds like a fun event, but it doesn't sound like War. Maybe as a separate event, this could be really fun.

Yes, from what I'm reading.... the vault is war.  According to a post made by SG on the upped war thread, she views vault as one of the two main components of war (element vs. element being the other).  I kind of despise the way the vault functions but I would guess I am in the minority.  It's overly complicated, predetermines too much, and is extremely time-consuming.

I wish to join this minority. I have no idea how you 'vault' cards.

Well, I get that it's a bank of some sort, but other than that, the salvaging is beyond me.

[suxerz]

Ok a few suggestions. ( lil rant at the start. )
[1]
First of all it sucks that if Underworld has anything less than a near pefect start that atleast one player will be out of the war. 6-2 is an awesome start, and will still be punished. Going down to 7 players when we did so well willl feel like a shallow victory. ( So far we are 4-2, I am not saying we will win the next 2 but even if we did we would be down 1 player. ) As it stands Underworld needs a 7-1 round NOT to go down by one player. I suggest making the player limit based on vaults go down just a little so that this wont happen. To do that well and still lose a player makes you feel rotten.
[2]
I noticed Upped cards are talked about alot. ( with Generals and everything. ) What about take upped cards out of war altogether? What challenge would there be in fighting a general or Lt instead of skill you ask? Well lets remove a little of the deck limits. Generals only need to have 30%+ of thier deck be thier element but no element can surpass your teams element in card %. Lts it would be 40%. This change would also make it so the best player can be general of underworld and not want to give it up due to a lack of electrum/upgraded cards. ( Yes I know, Neo gave me generalship because of that very reason. ) So I am not saying this because I think I will be able to use it more than others or anything selfish like that, I honestly think it would be good for the war. Generals and Lts still have an advantage but it is not as crushing. Also yes 6 upgraded cards or even 3 can decide a whole match.
[3]
Bring Back rookies. ( Oh yes I went there, get over it. ) I suggest it change a little though. Have it so rookies can only fight other rookies. ( RNG cheat so the same ones dont fight eachother over and over again ) This can also bring new event cards, where a team must teach and trust their rookie to win. ( For the event. ) It is a good way to get into war. Also because of the "omg they always quit and leave" factor make it free to replace rookies. Also if you noticed alot of players just quit this war, I think it just so happened that alot that did LAST war happened to be rookies.
 Make team size 7 and then 1 rookie for each team. The General already is said to make things go to plan and stuff so have them also be duel org. ( Some already take that position. )

Also because of rookies more "good" players will find their way on the underworld tournament, but as we found out they don't win too often in UW. What that would do though is give a chance for someone with war exp to help team underworld out.

Just random thoughts.

In previous war, the limit based was tighter and UW needs to win all matches to keep all players in the subsequent rounds. Though I partly agree that it will be a short journey for some of the UW's members, but like every other team, they have the option to switch team order to dismiss/include team members in their next matchup. Besides, do take note that since UW enters in the middle phase of war, some teams already falling behind fielding less players than UW. If I'm not mistaken, in previous and in current war; when UW enters the war, they were already leading ahead of 5 other teams which means these 5 teams are using less numbers of players when compared to UW. Basically, what I'm trying to say is in the current state and rules, it's only fair that UW should have a pretty hard time to defend their 8-players status. Also, not fielding 8 players isn't necessarily a bad thing. Less players also means less discard.

Probably another option is to allow UW to enter war one round sooner and have a slightly bigger vault than the current one so they may have better chance to field all players in the subsequent round. On the other hand, this might depends on the UW tourney itself (how fluent, numbers of participants, etc) which might be tricky to organize.


I don't really get the idea here. Let's say I'm the General of Darkness and I have 30 cards deck. Does that means if I choose to use 30% darkness cards = 9, I need to do a rainbow deck since no other elements in my deck can exceed 9 cards? Also, I don't like the basic idea of reducing the minimum elements % generally, because war represents the battle between elements - if generals are not boasting the true potential of their own element, why be a general in the first place? It just doesn't feel right to me.


Not much comments I can give here. Personally, I think lots of rookies "disappeared" because they don't know what they've got into. I don't think any of them quits because they played vs a master twice in a row or something like that. Therefore, I don't see how setting up rookie vs rookie could make the rookies stay until war is over. Also, IIRC replacing rookie was never free of charge, but I might be wrong about that.

[Sevs]

I agree that UW should join a round earlier, at least with other teams players put in a bunch of the work and at least last 4-5 rounds. UW does the same work but a couple players get dropped after a match.

And sorry Long, I dont really agree with the whole % of your elements cards, i feel war is based on element association.

[LongDono]

I agree that UW should join a round earlier, at least with other teams players put in a bunch of the work and at least last 4-5 rounds. UW does the same work but a couple players get dropped after a match.

And sorry Long, I dont really agree with the whole % of your elements cards, i feel war is based on element association.

Yea I agree about the % thing, it was jsut a passing thought.
Underworld entering with a bigger vault 1 round earlier would be good. Though this means the Underworld tournament would have to be quicker, and we did finish earlier, and if you only allowed the first 32 to enter then you could end it 1 round earlier. If you miss the 32 first come first serve you might not be that active anyways.

Also people could not complain as much that underworld has a big advantage of knowing everyones vault and countering everyone. Though flawed logic because we have to make our vault before we know our round 5 foes, and building a counter to EVERY one of the 12 teams is insane. Us coming in at round 4 would allow for other teams to have bigger vaults still, thus harder to counter. Also Underworld wont lose as many cards in round 4 as they would in round 5. Overall Underworld entering round 4 is perfect. It gives them a REAL chance at winning the war and not a false hope.

Rant time
Team underworld can only use 3 of a card. This wont allow for many combos. Part of deck building is finding some combos that work and building on it. Team underworld has a big disadvantage because it is really hard to make a deck work with only 3 of a card
/rant

[wizelsnarf]

Someone who is really smart please do the below:

Write a spreadsheet that can recognize the card codes. Make 3 tabs for each round: Vault, Used, Unused.

1. "Vault" tab will be the same as now.
2. "Used" tab will have 8 slots for your potential deck codes. Input your codes and the spreadsheet automatically generates a mini vault of "USED" cards. This is not your vault, but shows you what cards you have used.
3. "Unused" tab would be "Vault" (minus) "Used". If any of the values are negative, you know you made a mistake and are using cards that don't exist.


this would be SOOOOOOOO HELPFUL OMG!@! i mean this would not only give everyone more time to focus on deckbuilding and ease the amount of time wasted on math, but it would also prevent cheating and keep people honest. It would be REALLY easy to audit the vaults with these tabs.

I would make it myself but my only hangup is that I can't figure out how or if it is possible for a spreadsheet to read specific card codes in a string and understand them. If someone can figure out how to extract specific card codes from a deck code in a spreadsheet we are set.



Just to make it clear, we need to figure out how to take this:

4sa 4sa 4sa 4t3 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5ul 5um 5um 5um 5um 5un 5un 5un 5uo 5up 5up 5up 5uq 5us 5us 5us 61o 61o 61o 61o 61p 61q 61r 61s 8pt
put that deck code in a single cell, and then in other cells pops out:

quantum pillar	3
dagger	1
obsidian pillar	12

etc.

the deck image generator already knows how to do this so I suspect it is also possible in an excel file/ google doc. Once we have that, we can make the Vault/Used/Unused system.


thanks for your time.

[TheonlyrealBeef]

Several teams already have such tools but keep it a secret to gain an advantage over other teams
But I recommend you take a look at the War Vault Tracker linked here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21833), if you haven't already.

Actually integrating it into the audit system... well that's a different story entirely. I bet Kael has his own tools for making audits easier

[Sevs]

Several teams already have such tools but keep it a secret to gain an advantage over other teams
But I recommend you take a look at the War Vault Tracker linked here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21833), if you haven't already.

Actually integrating it into the audit system... well that's a different story entirely. I bet Kael has his own tools for making audits easier

trying to keep UW down lol, by giving us a link we dont have permission for, and making us do it the long way

[suxerz]

In regards of the tools; I'm actually curious to see what people think about this. Is it better to provide the tools for every team? Sure it sounds more fair, but would it "devalued" the players with this knowledge in the next war auction?

Also, I'm pretty sure if you know what you're looking for, you'll find bits and pieces needed to create this tools within this forum. 

Several teams already have such tools but keep it a secret to gain an advantage over other teams
But I recommend you take a look at the War Vault Tracker linked here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21833), if you haven't already.

Actually integrating it into the audit system... well that's a different story entirely. I bet Kael has his own tools for making audits easier

trying to keep UW down lol, by giving us a link we dont have permission for, and making us do it the long way

Nah.. I'm sure Longdono can access the link (it is in the farewell section). 
I've suggested (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24741.msg337394#msg337394) that those farewell threads should be made viewable for Full member and below but I'm not sure it can be implemented and no feedback received regarding that. On the other hand, this is probably off-topic (not related to war) and should be discussed further in the farewell sticky thread or the forum suggestion & feedback section.

[Jappert]

I think it'd be a nice idea to change the lieutenant role a little. At this moment they just don't do anything! (sorry Nils )
How about lieutenants salvage 2 more cards on wins and lsoe 2 more on losses. This in addition to their 3 upped cards.

This would mean generals do well to take the best PvP-player in their team as their lieut.