War #13 - Rules

[Wyand]

What happened with Discard boost? Bring it back, 90 card threshold is already pretty harsh.

[worldwideweb3]

Do not decrease ups from war decks, it makes it so much less fun and less balanced. Peace

[Wyand]

Upped SoSe and Mutation having NEGATIVE modifiers? WTF?! Both cards are totally chancy, which means they are not entirely reliable!

Supernova getting -1? C'mon... this rule (along with the previous) makes SoSe decks unplayable. Think about it: maybe you get
2x12 quanta for one spell, but it isn't a free card, you have less chance to get a SNova in hand than a Nova... Plus you'll need
upped ppms (or entropy as mark) to use it effectively.

Chaos Power -0.5? No CP decks at all, or what? Starting with -3 ups... with both Psions and Wyrms getting -1 modifiers... good luck
playing those.

Upped Disco with -2... like +2 dmg equals -1 modifier, lol.

"Let's give good cards crazy negative modifiers and bad or less popular cards positive modifiers." I think it is a very bad approach.
Let players add 1-2 copies of Relics or a Schrodinger's Cat value in-element card for half-properly working decks? I don't like it at all.
Unupped War or what? Boring. I kinda feel that I'm not alone with my opinion that semi-upped (8-15 ups) has the most fun.


EDIT: Just checked a few of our decks from last War. No wonder they are getting negative modifiers (except for the Deathstalker deck, lol),
but the really shocking fact is, that most of them get -15 to -20 modifiers. I don't know where is the fun in this. Haven't checked
other Elements yet, what are your findings, fellow Generals?

[iancudorinmarian]

We appreciate the feedback! We'll take a look and see what changes can be made.

[Ginyu]

Chaos Power -0.5? No CP decks at all, or what? Starting with -3 ups... with both Psions and Wyrms getting -1 modifiers... good luck
playing those.

You look at it from a wrong perspective. If you look through past wars, all unupped cards had a cost of 0 and all upped a cost of -1. CP having -0.5 means you only have to invest half the upgrade points than before. Of course, having less upgrades total this time will make a difference, but that is more a problem of the initial upgrades rather than the modifier of the cards.

For Auction, banning up to 6 elements (from only 8 total) seems huge. Maybe this number was made under the assumption of 12 teams? Also, is it true that favourite elements do not impact bidding this time (just a question, no critique)?

[Wyand]

Chaos Power -0.5? No CP decks at all, or what? Starting with -3 ups... with both Psions and Wyrms getting -1 modifiers... good luck
playing those.

You look at it from a wrong perspective. If you look through past wars, all unupped cards had a cost of 0 and all upped a cost of -1. CP having -0.5 means you only have to invest half the upgrade points than before. Of course, having less upgrades total this time will make a difference, but that is more a problem of the initial upgrades rather than the modifier of the cards.

Umm, which Wars? Last War (my only experience) there was a Market, and CS/CP costed only 60 which wasn't that expensive.

[andretimpa]

Chaos Power -0.5? No CP decks at all, or what? Starting with -3 ups... with both Psions and Wyrms getting -1 modifiers... good luck
playing those.

You look at it from a wrong perspective. If you look through past wars, all unupped cards had a cost of 0 and all upped a cost of -1. CP having -0.5 means you only have to invest half the upgrade points than before. Of course, having less upgrades total this time will make a difference, but that is more a problem of the initial upgrades rather than the modifier of the cards.

Umm, which Wars? Last War (my only experience) there was a Market, and CS/CP costed only 60 which wasn't that expensive.

Pretty sure CP counted as upped during deckbuilding last war

[iancudorinmarian]

Changed max bans and favourites to 2. (to have the same scale as 3/12)

[TheonlyrealBeef]

If you have trouble with those numbers on Entropy, I do not think you understand the concept very well. Only Discord gets an upgrade nerf compared to the default 0|-1 (and Nova unupgraded) which means using one available upgrade for your deck to upgrade a card. You do not subtract another -1 for it being upgraded, it is already included in the modifier.

The numbers as they are now are actually good, in my opinion. I initially saw outrageous negative numbers in Darkness, but this is acceptable. I'd argue Vampire Stiletto could go for 0 unupgraded, since at current upgrade costs you would always upgrade it. Rustler, Fire Bolt, Armagio, Graboid, Virus and Lightning could probably do with -0.5 for both versions (to 1.5|1 ; -1|-1.5 ; 1.5 | 1 ; -1 | -1.5 ; 2 | 0 ; -0.5 | -1.5 respectively). Flying Weapon with -0.5 upgraded (0 | -1.5).

I think it's important that usual staple decks get weakened, and this achieves this much better than a pay once (or never at all) using market prices, but banning/crippling them with outrageous upgrade costs is not the answer. But as I stated, these costs are no longer outrageous. The benefit is that weird decks get buffed with additional upgrades and become stronger as a result.

[shockcannon]

It appears that everyone only looks at their own element prices and just assumes they're way worse than anyone else's. And apparently complaining leads to changes, so I'm going just going to point out that has the fewest cards that give positive modifiers. This is important because even if all our cards are stronger in general, all the other elements have multiple in-element options for boosting upgrade count.

Let's take a look at how many positive modifiers each element gets, keeping in mind that positive modifiers from upped cards are more valuable especially when they only drop by 0.5 from the unupped version (for example, rustler goes from +2 to +1.5 when you use it upped, which essentially means you're getting a free half of an upgrade since it doesn't drop from +2 to +1).

Element	Positive Unupped	Positive Upped
	7	4
	11	6
	8	3
	8	2
	3	1
	10	4
	6	3
	9	3

It should be evident, but one element really sticks out here. I realize that these numbers alone are useless because they're attached to cards with different levels of power, but the point is, every element has options if they want to get upgrades, but has no flexibility from in-element positive modifiers. I'm fine and this isn't an issue for me, but it is an issue when every one else complains about their element and then receives buffs when in actuality they have plenty of ways to get upgrades to compensate.


@WMs I will admit I'm hesistant about this system being better than old market, but I'm fine to try new things. However, if you're going to listen to feedback and make changes to the market, make sure they're warranted changes and not just one element fishing for buffs when they're actually balanced quite fine.


EDIT: I forgot to mention that you might look at this and think, well fire have stronger decks overall than some elements so it makes sense that their decks will have less upgrades. Well actually, if you look at all the past wars, every element had access to the same number of upgrades. may have had more expensive cards in the market, but once we had those cards in our vault we could upgrade our strongest decks just as much as any other team. That's no longer the case. Obviously, everyone had their strongest decks nerfed, but every element has more options for getting upgrades back through other cards than fire.

[Wyand]

If you have trouble with those numbers on Entropy, I do not think you understand the concept very well. Only Discord gets an upgrade nerf compared to the default 0|-1 (and Nova unupgraded) which means using one available upgrade for your deck to upgrade a card. You do not subtract another -1 for it being upgraded, it is already included in the modifier.

True, I had a different picture about it. Tbf I still don't get why doesn't the table contain only the punishments,
why adding -1s to all unchanged upped cards? * It is pretty straightforward that an upped card takes an upped place
in the deck, these flying negatives look like everybody get a whipping. This method seems pretty inverted to me
compared with the naturally intuitive version. Because -0,5s look strange this way. Let's see if I understand it.

-0,5 for an unupped card - Because it is instead of a 0, it gets a half upgrade penalty for the deck.

-0,5 for an upped card - Because it is instead of a -1, it gets a half upgrade bonus for the deck.

Am I correct?

* Guess it is easier for GDocs to keep track of legality of the deck. I simply had a different thinking,
"modifier" meant to me 'this is how it will modify upgrade count in the deck'. Again, I'm not thinking like a programmer. Nvm.

[Ginyu]

You are correct.

With the numbers as they are currently on the tables, you can easily calculate your total upgrades. Having to distract another -1 per upgraded card, if you only include the penalties, just makes it more complicated.