War #13 - Round 2

[Wyand]

I'm glad everybody is fine with this EC. It just shows the human condition. "Hey it doesn't matter that doing bad isn't prohibited, because at least I can be bad with others, too, hahaha!"
You know, it can be really funny in a boardgame, which lasts for 2-4 hours, and after that you just go home, but here everyone wasted already too much time on a flash game.
Modifiers weren't perfect in the first place, but at least you had a ruleset, and you could work out some decks according to that. Changing that ruleset in R2 is just straight mean and
sadistic.

Spoiler for Hidden:

(I'd like to add more arguments, but let's wait until the counter goes down.)

[iancudorinmarian]

Only cards that were affected by the EC can be transmuted, correct?

Only those can be transmuted by a 1:1 ratio. Other cards can still be freely transmuted by the usual 2:1 ratio (or 1:1 for alchemist).

[Mobian]

I stand with Wyand on this one... This EC was a dick move of epic proportions.

[shockcannon]

I don’t think it’s as game changing as people think. Like what is everyone worried about? Sure, if you built a fractal RoL hope deck and fractal gets nerfed then your hope and RoL cards are less useful and it feels bad. But cards like fractal are a card that potentially every team has in their vault. I personally expect no one to nerf fractal as just one example. Sure maybe PU gets targeted by one team. That doesn’t make dragons completely useless. Sure maybe Sopa gets hit, devourers and wardens are still plenty usable. Sure phase salvager might get hit, we’ll just have to run crema with less upgrades. Plus cards that become less useful can just be fodder.

The smart teams are going to target cards that I don’t think other people are considering. And the cards that I personally think would be smartest for a lot of teams to nerf don’t even cripple the decks being targeted that much. But if you all want to bandwagon on some stupid nerf choice and bring it to -5 then go ahead.

If it makes anyone feel better, I guarantee the card we’re nerfing won’t be nerfed by any other team. And I guarantee it won’t make any deck unusable. It won’t even make the card unusable.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

Are you kidding me?

DON'T MAKE THINGS HAPPEN HALF WAY THROUGH AN EVENT WHICH WOULD AFFECT HOW YOU STARTED IT.

This EC has to either have a cap per card of 0.5 change to current value AND only last one round, or be thrown out altogether. The transmute discount does not work, because you can nerf a key card and leave teams with loads of unusable trash. Genuinely this is the most annoyed I have been at an EC.

You build a vault out of decks. Deckbuilding is harder this war than any other, slight changes completely ruin deck builds. Potentially entire vaults could be permenantly nerfed, and the problem is it comes so early that it will hit cards ALREADY horribly NERFED. PERMENANTLY.

This is awful. Please, please remove this ridiculous EC. Or vaultbuilding was utterly pointles.

Here are the rules! Ok, you picked those decks, nice. Now those decks are unplayable for the rest of war. Enjoy!

[iancudorinmarian]

Added max -0.5 modifier change for the selected cards (so multiple votes have no effect). Timer for choice extended for 6 hours.

[worldwideweb3]

...cumulative was fine, changing to a max modifier, and that too just at 0.5 isn’t a good move :/

[Wyand]

Are you kidding me?

DON'T MAKE THINGS HAPPEN HALF WAY THROUGH AN EVENT WHICH WOULD AFFECT HOW YOU STARTED IT.

This EC has to either have a cap per card of 0.5 change to current value AND only last one round, or be thrown out altogether. The transmute discount does not work, because you can nerf a key card and leave teams with loads of unusable trash. Genuinely this is the most annoyed I have been at an EC.

You build a vault out of decks. Deckbuilding is harder this war than any other, slight changes completely ruin deck builds. Potentially entire vaults could be permenantly nerfed, and the problem is it comes so early that it will hit cards ALREADY horribly NERFED. PERMENANTLY.

This is awful. Please, please remove this ridiculous EC. Or vaultbuilding was utterly pointles.

Here are the rules! Ok, you picked those decks, nice. Now those decks are unplayable for the rest of war. Enjoy!

JCJ was able to word the problems better than me.

As a player I favor positive ECs, when you have a chance to boost your own decks, own strategy, own synergy than ruining the work of other teams.
I sorta hope those ECs will follow, and WMs will remember the time when they were players and they thought: "man, even I am able to figure out
better ECs!" Other than that I wish them endurance and I hope they won't think players hate them. Players hate only bad ECs.

[shockcannon]

Honestly, just change EC to has to discard 10 cards. Everyone would be happy and our win will look even more impressive. I'm being serious. This is objectively the best option. The only one who gets upset is kaempfer13 but that's okay because someone who runs 60 card decks deserves to be punished every once in a while for finding a way to play an abomination with 0 entropy cards.

[Wyand]

The only one who gets upset is kaempfer13 but that's okay because someone who runs 60 card decks deserves to be punished every once in a while for finding a way to play an abomination with 0 entropy cards.

you can do that, just play Eggs or RT Skellies.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

Added max -0.5 modifier change for the selected cards (so multiple votes have no effect). Timer for choice extended for 6 hours.

It is still f**king awful.

You BUILD YOUR VAULT with the costs of the cards.

Changing it for ONE ROUND makes it an event card, you have to play around with your deck choices, do you go for the counter knowing you are disadvantaged?

Changing it for the rest of war is HORRIFICALLY unbalanced, because you will have massive sections of your vault unplayable.

This is still a terrible fix, it HAS TO BE FOR ONE ROUND ONLY.


This is simple game mechanics, you know your limitations before a game / tournament / fight starts. You give TWO WEEKS for vault building where every card is scrutinised. This EC lasting the whole of war, even at -0.5 max is just a terrible, terrible game mechanic.

I genuinely can't understand how this needs to be argued about at all, you are literally changing all of the deck building and all of the vault building, IMMEDIATELY after spending weeks planning it, it does not make sense at all.

Why even bother?

"this deck works, just about, with these niche cards that allow it to function, counterbalancing the cost of the expensive key card!"
"let's make that card cost 0.5 more for the rest of war"
"ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I have half a vault of cards which work with NOTHING ELSE and I can no longer use them with the deck I included them for!!"

I am practically AFK this war, as my team will testify, but I can't allow this insanity to pollute the whole of war - YOU CAN'T have a whole vault building phase to then change how decks can be constructed FOR THE REST OF WAR. One round is fine, but a whole war is LITERALLY INSANE.

Go back through all of the previous awful ECs, where I was fully active, where I was a general, you will not find one that I am as appalled about as I am this one.

[Wyand]

I try to summarize all this.

a) Players plan their decks/vaults for days. Or weeks. They put a large effort into it.
b) Originally WMs were very firm that they won't change modifiers again.
c) All previous ECs lasted for one round.

Then BAM R2, and we have an EC which...

a) Ruins meticulous pre-planning;
b) a change in the modifiers happen after vaultbuilding;
c) lasts for ALL ROUNDS in War.

Also don't forget, that 1:1 replacement of the affected cards won't help much, since whole decks will became
obsolete because of synergies... (serp, I remember you mentioned that while making the modifiers you didn't
want to affect individual cards, but deck types - which was reasonable. Think about it, now entire decks are
affected again - but in a very bad way.)

I kinda feel that our WMs didn't want to do any bad, they just wanted to push players a bit. Yeah, you can
push players for more efforts, but over a certain line it'll backfire. As a teacher I know that I can expect
kids to be diligent etc. but can't push them too far, can't pressure them - just because I think it creates
a fun, competitive situation. Rules aren't created to provide entertainment for myself. I'm doing those rules
FOR THEM.

Other than that I feel like we are missing a WM who is less analytical (both serp and ian has programmer's
thinking, and they are very good at it) and has more artistic creativity.

Solution. Again as a teacher I had experiences where I had to accept that a kid (or an entire group of kids) is (are) right,
and I must retrace my steps. It happens, doesn't feel good, but certainly doesn't destroy your image.
Sometimes even helps it.