War #12 - Planned Changes (Work In Progress) (Discussion)

[mathman101]

Everything you see in this thread is subject to change.

Starting this one earlytoday so we can get War going sooner than later good rules with feedback from the community.



Current Plans for War #12

• Market price rebalancing
• Variable Team Sizes
• Market Price Coupons
• Incremental Salvage/Discard based on Match Score
• Lore, and Themed EC cards
• Auction Revamp
• Changing General and Lieutenant Roles into Soldier Boosts
• Small rule changes, listed out below

Spoiler for Market Prices:

Here is out first effort to understand the market and see how it can be improved. Still a work in progress.

Spoiler for Variable Team Sizes:

With the lower amount of players playing War, rather than just continually reduce team sizes, we want to try variable team sizes similar to what has been done in Brawl. Based on the number of applicants we will be having minimum team sizes of 3 players (General + 2 applicants) and a maximum of 5 players (General + 4 applicants).
Matches will be consistent at 5 games per round regardless of team size. If there are less players on a team then number of matches, any player from the team may play the remaining matches.

Spoiler for Example:

14	Gen. deuce22	Naii_the_Baf
17	RavingRabbid	Solaris
7	TheonlyrealBeef	Gen. ji412jo
16	Player 4	dragonsdemesne
41	Player 5	Player 5

Thoughts on other ways to arrange variable team sizes, while still having equal number of matches for discards/salvages?

Spoiler for Market Price Coupons:

After a general has won their team members, during the first 24 hours of vault building, Teams may buy coupons for reductions in the market. Each Grouping has been scaled down appropriately by their type.
Each Bucket Group will remove X points from your selected cards.

• Creatures - 10 points
• Spells - 5 points
• Permanents - 15 points

NOTE: Shards are not included in these bucket groups, and do not have a discount applied to them!


We are still finalizing the exact Discount amount, but are confident with the bucket groupings. We have looked at both a flat rate (X points) and by percentage, but feel that incremental is easier to follow, in keeping all values at multiples of 5 for ease of counting point totals.

Spoiler for Incremental Salvage/Discard based on Match Score:

As per several Suggestions in the S&F thread, we would like to implement varying salvage and discard based on the scoreline in each match. The current amounts discussed are:

Score	Salvage	Discard
3-0 or 0-3	Base Salvage	Base Discard
3-1 or 1-3	-1	-1 (-2 after Round 4)
3-2 or 2-3	-2	-2 (-4 after Round 4)

• This will be based off of the rounds base value. (R1 = 6, R2 = 12, R3+ = 24)
• Additional Discards will be taken from the Vault

We feel this will help increase the potential mindgates, and give closer matches overall. Yes there is some "rich get richer, poor get poorer" considerations, but we feel the shift in meta planned, and other Rules changes planned will help balance this.

Spoiler for Lore, and Themed EC cards:

We plan to try something similar to Brawl with an overlying theme during the whole War. All EC's and Super EC's will be connected in some way. Also adjustments may be made in the rules formatting, to help provide a more thematic appearance.

Spoiler for Auction:

Blind auction, starting bids, favorites and bans the same as war 11. Only 1-2 days of open auction, then raises start getting more expensive by a multiplicative every day (24 hour period). This hopes to stop the practice of waiting for the deadline and then ninjabidding, which makes auction slow and forces generals to be around for a specific time. We hope to lessen the problem by diluting it.

Generals will NOT be locked from voting if they currently have a full team of 4 soldiers. After auction ends, generals will take the players they have max bids on, in descending order of bids. If a General has 3 or 4+ winning bids, they may not opt out for less players than they have winning bids on unto a maximum of 4 soldiers. While this might result in a player being bid on but not ending on a roster, we don't expect this to be an issue. Player substitutions will also be more open to account for this.

Thoughts?

Spoiler for Changing Lieutenant Roles into a Soldier Boost:

We plan to remove the Lieutenant role and change it into a soldier boost. This means that Lt is no longer mandatory each round. Conversely we have removed the upgrades boost from the soldier roles. With the Addition of the Lt to soldier boosts, we felt that there was no need for a second upgrade type of boost which is why the +2 ups boost was replaced with the Lt ups (+4).

Spoiler for Boosts:

Lieutenant Upgrades (+4)

Extra Salvage (+2)

Reduced Discard (-2) - This applies to the "Discard from the Vault"("Discards from Deck" if no discards from vault) as per the table in section 4.2.

Tinkerer - Off-Element pendulums now count as your own Element for deckbuilding percentage and upgrade rules. You must use your own team's mark.

Sideboard of 3 cards - the first game must be played with the full deck. Before each match, you must import the deck from vault tool. After the first game, you may remove (up to) 3 cards after importing. If any of the three cards are upgraded, you may reallocate these upgrades elsewhere in the deck. The deck played should always be at least 50% in-Element, and should always contain at least 4 in-Element upgrades. Minimum deck size for the original deck (in vault tool) is 33 cards.

Mercenary - Can only use 4 or fewer Elements in the deck; deck only has to be 40% in-Element.

Gambler - Bet the scoreline (distinguishing between win or loss for your team) on this deck. If the scoreline is exactly right, you win 3 relics. If it's off by one game, you win 1 relic.

Alchemist - Can transmute cards with 2 less dust cost. (see Transmutations for more information )

All players other than the General would then have the 8 upgrades, with the required 4 in-element ups.

Additional adjustments may still be made to the former Soldier boosts to account for the power the Gen and Lt bring with the upgrade amounts.

Spoiler for Rule Changes:

These are still under discussion, and are possible to change. We will update as we finalize these.

If you have suggestions for minor changes, please let us know.

This is not a final list. More stuff will be added as we work on them.

Feel free to post your thoughts about any or all of these points, but please keep your feedback constructive.

[Manuel]

lol sofree cost 50 more with 5 matches and sopa the same as last year cmon, it's like punishing me because afda made a great war last year planning every match rather than use sofree in a brainless way
dims cheaper than last year by default and the possibility to use the coupon is crazy, then u increase the price of sofree lol (and why not, increase the cost of deflag by 5)
lighthing also cheaper by 10 for no reason
the +20 for nova was good with only 4 matches/round, with 5 is too much
same for sofo, same price of last year with more matches, it should be 170


i don't understand why if i lose a match 3-2 i should discard more cards, or maybe i didn't understand and i discard less cards if i lose 3-2 but still, a loss is a loss and win is a win, why the score should influence the discard?


about the ec:

pls no ec with a timer/deadline, having already 2 deadline for decks and for matches is enough, it only makes things more stressful


any chance for a sort of midseason auction/draft for replacing inactive players or since i can make a team of 3 players now and buy 2 more later?

also am i wrong or the plan is make a war a LOT more shorter than any other one?

[dawn to dusk]

@SoFree
A ton of people feel it is either still strong, or at the very least unfun to play against. The amount of games it played is somewhat irrelevant, as the threat of it being potentially played is still enough to make every team put up a potentially worse deck against it. Honestly, I would be fine with it costing 500-550 with a decrease in cost to Wyrm and Dragonfly.

I do agree that 3-2 should have less discards/salvage than 3-0, since that would moreso incentivise bringing hard counters, and that even mindgates don't punish the team that lost the coin toss. Reward the team that correctly mindgated and won 3-0, instead of punishing the team that lost the coin toss at 2-2

[Manuel]

people also believe that play against discord, dims, sopa etc is unfunny, the "ban sofree" is a meme, even new members that aren't into pvp know the meme "ban sofree", but until is an inside joke is ok, if it influence a war it is not
the NEW war formula already nerf A LOT sofree, with 5 matches/round

increase and decrease card price doesn't make something balanced, at that point i won't buy sofree while still having a huge discount for wyrms


so i understand correctly, with the current rule if i lose 3-0 i discard less cards than a 3-2, so it incentivate teams to play suicide decks

[CactusKing]

Have some feedback!

Market prices (I know it's just a draft but these are my first impressions):

• Seraph and Chrysaora seem very cheap
• Immolation, Shockwave and Drain Life seem overpriced
• Druidic staff should cost more than lobotomiser.
• Black Nymph and Turquoise Nymph seem a little expensive, but no one would buy them anyway so it hardly matters

Market price coupons may need elaboration. How do teams buy coupons? Do they cost 5, 10 and 15 points, or is that the discount they provide?
With a flat rate discount, you should be wary of teams stocking up on cards that were already low-priced, reduced even further by the discount, for the sole purpose of discard fodder.

Lore and themed EC cards sounds fun, but I hope it doesn't come at the expense of balance or attention to more important details.

How does the proposed auction format ensure a minimum number of players on each team?

Changing Lt. to soldier boost is a good idea.

More to come!

[Manuel]

another thing, from the war 11 rules:

If a player does not own cards in a deck (either due to a minor error, or while subbing), he must replace mark cards with pillars of that element, and other cards with relic cards. If a mark card was upgraded, the replacement pillar may be upgraded as well. Arrangements will be made for players who do not have sufficient relics.

if i am forced to sub a player but i don't have a nymph , i should be free to play the alchemic card (or the dragon, if for some reason i already have 6 alchemic cards of that element), rather than a relic

nymphs are hard to get almost like marks, so they should be threated in a similar way

In the event of a disconnect (Opponent not responding, CPU takes over), the players should play it out vs the AI on both sides (unless both  agree to restart the duel).
If the same player wins in both "games", they are considered the winner of that game. A screenshot of the winning turn vs. the opponent's AI must be provided in order to claim a win or replay.

can u please add an image of what is a winning turn?

Penalties are issued when a team somehow breaks the rules or disrupts War. A penalized team must discard from their Vault at the round's end. The following are guidelines, and Warmasters will determine penalties on a case-by-case basis.

Minor penalty: 5 cards. For small mistakes which do not disrupt the course of the event.
Medium penalty: 20 cards. For larger infractions which cause minor delays to the event.
Major penalty: 40 cards. For major infractions which seriously disrupt the event.

there is nothing about editing the vault after the deadline (which should't be threated like a minor penalty, i'm not cheating), last year was something like

-8 for major vault edit
-2 for minor vault edit

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/round-3-248/war-11-round-3-results-countdown/

can we know how much is the penalty for this year and what is a minor and a major edit?

[shockcannon]

Never played war so maybe my comments don't mean a lot. However, I think the following are too expensive:
SoFree
SoPa
SoFo
Graboid

I also think the following are a bit too cheap:
Fallen Elf
Blessing

It's impossible to fine tune everything perfectly but these stand out to me. Maybe these suggestions are laughable for people who have actual experience but that's my two cents.

[asdw152]

@everyone
At this moment, I can't answer everything without discussing with the other WM, so I'll try to explain/answer what I can for now, but what I say can be subject to change in the future.


@Market
     SoFree - too stronk? We understand that Air has a right to its shard just like any other, but we also understand that SoFree provides way more advantages in decks than any other could. WMs will return to further clarify.
     SoPa - kinda forgot, again will discuss
     Cards being too cheap - As fodder as it is, they're rarely used/limited in use. To Shock, I don't recall Entropy or Life ever using Elves, though I could be wrong. Again, WMs discuss.


@Timed EC
     We'll see, but we'll take your thoughts into consideration.


@Salvage/Discards
     I believe we may have made a typo or misinterpreted community thoughts, and we will fix it.


@Auction/Mid-war Auction
     I should not say, as I do not know.


@Winning turn
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/round-1-166/(time-lt-)-vineroz-3-2-asdw152-(death-salvage)/
     shameful memories, but an example. Possible changes to this definition, but I will, for now, define a winning turn/(screenshot) as: (a screenshot of) the turn where it is evident that the player can win by the end of that turn or the player's next turn.
For Vineroz, it would be his screenshots, as he has DL in hand and sufficient quanta to execute me/my AI.
For asdw152, it would be similar, a turn where the calculated bolt damage would be sufficient enough to win the match. Assuming I need to win by Fahrenheit, as I did against faulty AI, I repeatedly took multiple screenshots and ended turn. If the Fahren hit, the SC prior would be the winning SC. If the Fahren didn't hit, I would either lose, or take a new SC and repeat.

@Penalties
     Discuss


If there is any more questions, please discuss it here. We will return with answers to as many unanswered questions as soon as we can.

[ddevans96]

SoFr was close to fine last war. Its price shouldn't be changed unless SoP, VDagger, Fractal, and Graboid are also/have also been increased, and other cards in this post are properly examined, including increasing at least one card necessary to full Sanc Firestall.

I realize I'm a broken record at this point, but I would not do so if I wasn't very confident in my reason for doing so.


Otherwise, I agree with:

I do agree that 3-2 should have less discards/salvage than 3-0, since that would moreso incentivise bringing hard counters, and that even mindgates don't punish the team that lost the coin toss. Reward the team that correctly mindgated and won 3-0, instead of punishing the team that lost the coin toss at 2-2

another thing, from the war 11 rules:

If a player does not own cards in a deck (either due to a minor error, or while subbing), he must replace mark cards with pillars of that element, and other cards with relic cards. If a mark card was upgraded, the replacement pillar may be upgraded as well. Arrangements will be made for players who do not have sufficient relics.

if i am forced to sub a player but i don't have a nymph , i should be free to play the alchemic card (or the dragon, if for some reason i already have 6 alchemic cards of that element), rather than a relic

dd: furthermore, the 'replace cards not owned with relic/pillar or tower/appropriate alchemy card/etc' rule needs to be codified, and not based on precedent as it has been

~~~~

can we know how much is the penalty for this year and what is a minor and a major edit?

Black Nymph and Turquoise Nymph seem a little expensive...

- I don't mind LT being a soldier role, but Upgrade role shouldn't go. Some elements need upgrades more than others, and 5 matches is already a huge nerf to teams who rely more on upgrades, have it so people can go 15 / 8(boost) / 8(boost) / 8(boost) / 8(boost) if they want to, but people should also be able to go 15 / 12 / 10 / 8(boost) / 8(boost) if they want to. i like the minor change of making LT optional, but hate removing upgrades.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

A few things:

- 3-2 should give LESS salvage and LESS discard, NOT MORE. This is because if you are in a disadvantageous match up, you know you are going to lose, but on game 3 your opponent has an absolute faildraw and you somehow have a chance of winning one game, it would be a smarter move to LOSE than to win. And MASSIVELY increases the chance of sending suicide decks. Also, thematically a light defeat should cost you less than a heavy defeat. I really hate this rule as it stands, and would prefer no change than this, but like the idea of the reverse.

- I don't mind LT being a soldier role, but Upgrade role shouldn't go. Some elements need upgrades more than others, and 5 matches is already a huge nerf to teams who rely more on upgrades, have it so people can go 15 / 8(boost) / 8(boost) / 8(boost) / 8(boost) if they want to, but people should also be able to go 15 / 12 / 10 / 8(boost) / 8(boost) if they want to. i like the minor change of making LT optional, but hate removing upgrades.

- Presumably market price coupons are only for IN element cards? doesn't say that currently.

[worldwideweb3]

For incremental salvage/discard, I wouldn’t change the salvage personally. Only reduce the discard if the score line is 3-1 or 3-2 instead of 3-0.

[ARTHANASIOS]

I like the changes, let us see what kind of War these changes will bring...