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Offline kaempfer13

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280114#msg1280114
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2018, 08:15:44 pm »
A similiar thing that isnt covered by an actual role yet (merc comes close but not really) is considering qps (and maybe all other cards) neither inelement nor offelement for inelement calculations.

Atm its basically impossible to build nova/graboidless rainbows unless you want to tech in some pc into your notfirestall and didnt want to use firependulums for some reason.
Take a 30card deck: 15 cards must match your element, assuming you need at least 8 qps (which is kinda risky already) you cannot even pack 1 card from every other element. with the rule change those 8 qps would be ignored for inelement percentages and thus you look at a 22 card deck regarding cards that belong to an element, 11 of which must still come from your element. That just barely gives you the option of running a single card from each element.

Obviously a concern would be that everyone would run some version of 'the deck', that elements would lose a bit of their identity when going rainbow (and running less of their element) and perhaps a few other things. It would open a lot of options for all elements for better or worse (obviously entropy would go rainbow pretty much all the time then, even moreso then now, but also lose their monopoly over it). A major boon however would be that discord and devourer are no longer nearly always a good choice unless you are up vs specifically grabbow.

I think its fairly justifiable, since other cards can use and produce quanta of your element.
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Offline RavingRabbid

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280210#msg1280210
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2018, 12:15:20 pm »
To new WM whichever glorious creatures they are

Some elements are better support elements. Thats their natural role. If you want to shake up the meta, allow off element pendulems to be considered as in element provided in element mark. Seriously will have a big impact on war meta.
This used to be a soldier role
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Offline JonathanCrazyJ

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280211#msg1280211
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2018, 12:41:42 pm »
To new WM whichever glorious creatures they are

Some elements are better support elements. Thats their natural role. If you want to shake up the meta, allow off element pendulems to be considered as in element provided in element mark. Seriously will have a big impact on war meta.
This used to be a soldier role

Still is, but thats still limiting and didnt see much use as the tradeoff for fewer ups was too high, if able to combine with other roles will shake up meta
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Offline phoenix1211

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280216#msg1280216
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2018, 03:35:48 pm »
I think the sideboard boost should be removed from war. While I enjoyed the strategic aspect of it, it is extremely unbalanced in terms of favoring certain elements more than others - air and darkness come to mind, because of their varied and powerful flex cards. It makes prediction and testing a lot harder, because other teams have to plan around things like extra steals, drains, wings, OE etc. In general, it allows one deck to have the flexibility to beat too many things. Just my two cents.

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280268#msg1280268
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2018, 03:39:44 pm »
I think the sideboard boost should be removed from war. While I enjoyed the strategic aspect of it, it is extremely unbalanced in terms of favoring certain elements more than others - air and darkness come to mind, because of their varied and powerful flex cards. It makes prediction and testing a lot harder, because other teams have to plan around things like extra steals, drains, wings, OE etc. In general, it allows one deck to have the flexibility to beat too many things. Just my two cents.
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Offline JonathanCrazyJ

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280269#msg1280269
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2018, 03:46:55 pm »
Yeah i think thats fair
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Offline Basman-1453

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280270#msg1280270
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2018, 04:01:23 pm »
Another alternative that comes to mind is even more daring, allowing teams to not fill all player spots on purpose. They would still get as many matches as any other team, but would always be played by another member on the team. This means less people to collaborate with, but in case of team Aether last war: that last inactive was nothing but a drain on our vault. Low value players will again be low value in auction and become a part of a team that actually wants them, instead of forced into a team that happened to have a spot left.

All my +1. Because I felt lucky the three teams I've been in War (that is, Water W9, Air WX, and Time W11) IIRC didn't have to deal with someone you can count to be MIA. However, I dunno if the 'minor' caveat that the team must have at least two member, the Gen included, is a fair addition. (But in that case remove the restriction that the second player have to use Lieut boost -- or not, that might give Gens a fair incentive to recruit at least two reasonably active ppls since knowing that their opponent is using Lieut is a big deal.)

Also, in case of incomplete teams, what rulings will be given considering their roles across multiple decks?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 04:02:59 pm by Basman-1453 »
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Offline kaempfer13

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280271#msg1280271
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2018, 04:08:58 pm »
Yh, it would be weird if the same player is both general and lieutenant at the same time. I think if you dont spend any points on a third and 4th being punished by not being able to use lieutenant boost in the second general match (when applicable, amongst 3 players the gen wouldnt always play 2 matches) and have to use a normal soldier boost there is fair.
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Offline Kalinuial

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280274#msg1280274
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2018, 04:41:29 pm »
I'm posting feedback on a war I didn't participate in.  However, in observing parts of war and preparing for the next one (reviewing war 11 battles), I have a few comments:

1. Subbing.  Subs need to be used and understandably so.  Players can't connect for a match from different time zones, personal conflicts, etc. Players go completely inactive for war.  But a trend I observed is that top players/Gens are often doing the subbing - Kaempfer, W3, etc.  This can give the subbing team an unforeseen advantage in match play and doesn't honor the auction/balance of teams aspect of war.  Less experienced players might not read the opponent as quick or play as optimal as the experienced veteran.  What about reducing deck upgrades (maybe -2) if using a sub? Or perhaps, the first 1-3 times using a sub don't have an upgrade reduction, but reduction occurs after that.

2. "Card is broken" vs. "Strong, not OP".  How about banning or restricting the (1) upgraded versions of cards and/or (2) # copies allowed in deck.  Might there be a middle ground here? Other cards may deserve discussion: Vagger, Graboid, Miracle, Sundial, etc.

Offline Manuel

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280275#msg1280275
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2018, 05:02:38 pm »
yes not only i am forced to sub a player i payed for, i also start with a disadvantage; u really need to take this game less seriously
i can't predict during the auction if a player become inactive in a period of >2 months
deciding who sub from the 2 team is controversial enough without this -2 rule, this is the classic clause that make everything frustrating for no reason

there is already a clause based on a general that doesn't let a player play is matches in rules

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280276#msg1280276
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2018, 05:04:37 pm »
1. Subbing.  Subs need to be used and understandably so.  Players can't connect for a match from different time zones, personal conflicts, etc. Players go completely inactive for war.  But a trend I observed is that top players/Gens are often doing the subbing - Kaempfer, W3, etc.  This can give the subbing team an unforeseen advantage in match play and doesn't honor the auction/balance of teams aspect of war.  Less experienced players might not read the opponent as quick or play as optimal as the experienced veteran.  What about reducing deck upgrades (maybe -2) if using a sub? Or perhaps, the first 1-3 times using a sub don't have an upgrade reduction, but reduction occurs after that.
I am going to be a total ass here, but why would the general even want such a player on the team if they are penalized even further through substitutions? Already are decks for these players incapable of using full Marks and Nymphs like they would if allowed and planned to be subbed by someone like me in advance. But no, this substitution nerf was already put into place: the sub cannot use ultra rares the subbed player does not have.

Unknown players are often less active, veterans became known by being active. It is only logical for them to be more active for substitutions as well. If generals either take a chance with someone or are forced to live with a player that barely contributes and does not even make time to play matches, an upgrade reduction will only further penalize the team that is already hurt just from that player being inactive.

By looking at past wars I would rather look at this: how often has it truly occurred that a sub was completely unnecessary and done solely for the "lack of competence" of the subbed player? I think these cases are rare indeed, making a special rule for this case a low priority. Nevertheless, if a good option to prevent this presents itself I am all for it. I just do not think further penalizing teams for inactive players/players in need of substitution, is the solution.

Offline Kalinuial

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Re: War #11 - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64798.msg1280283#msg1280283
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2018, 07:29:41 pm »
Spoiler for Hidden:
1. Subbing.  Subs need to be used and understandably so.  Players can't connect for a match from different time zones, personal conflicts, etc. Players go completely inactive for war.  But a trend I observed is that top players/Gens are often doing the subbing - Kaempfer, W3, etc.  This can give the subbing team an unforeseen advantage in match play and doesn't honor the auction/balance of teams aspect of war.  Less experienced players might not read the opponent as quick or play as optimal as the experienced veteran.  What about reducing deck upgrades (maybe -2) if using a sub? Or perhaps, the first 1-3 times using a sub don't have an upgrade reduction, but reduction occurs after that.
I am going to be a total ass here, but why would the general even want such a player on the team if they are penalized even further through substitutions? Already are decks for these players incapable of using full Marks and Nymphs like they would if allowed and planned to be subbed by someone like me in advance. But no, this substitution nerf was already put into place: the sub cannot use ultra rares the subbed player does not have.

Unknown players are often less active, veterans became known by being active. It is only logical for them to be more active for substitutions as well. If generals either take a chance with someone or are forced to live with a player that barely contributes and does not even make time to play matches, an upgrade reduction will only further penalize the team that is already hurt just from that player being inactive.

By looking at past wars I would rather look at this: how often has it truly occurred that a sub was completely unnecessary and done solely for the "lack of competence" of the subbed player? I think these cases are rare indeed, making a special rule for this case a low priority. Nevertheless, if a good option to prevent this presents itself I am all for it. I just do not think further penalizing teams for inactive players/players in need of substitution, is the solution.

I'm not asserting that reduction is the solution, which is why I used a "?"  It's more accurate to say the point is about inactivity which can lead to excessive/habitual subbing that can be imbalanced - as in the case of team Death.  The team is inactive, which leads a player to overly sub in war.  So, the suggestion is for WM to consider the effects of inactivity.  Seems people are already expecting lower participation this war, perhaps more inactives.  Address this up front.  In a way, TORB, this seems related to your feedback about auction/inactives and suggesting fewer players on a team by choice. 

Subbing is considered by Majofa in Team PVP; in fact, approval is required.  I think there's the rule of subbing max 1x a round.  That seems reasonable.  It's a team event. Why not some policy/monitoring in War (yea, I know solo WM and bigger fish to fry)?  There's not an overall problem with subbing.  Seems to be a pretty fair give and take from what I noticed, and mostly done from necessity. Gross inactivity is something else to be considered. Should 1 player on a team do so much subbing in war?  Torb, of Aether's matches with subs (5), you subbed all 5.  Don't see why RR or Deuce can't sub a few.  Of team Death's 13 subs, 12 are from Kaempfer.  In Round 8, Kaemp plays all 4/4 Team Death matches. It probably is very small, but something just doesn't look right when I was reviewing the war rounds.

The only concern that I have, if I can seriously call it a concern, is when subbing moves from the function of the team to being dominated by an individual (even if its because all other team members are inactive).  If noone/WM don't think this is important, let's let it rest. Move on to other suggestions and feedback then.

BTW Manuel - you want me to stay serious.  I'll be more dangerous if I'm picking silly decks based on musical themes = can't mindgate me :)


 

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