War #10 - Suggestions and Feedback

[Vangelios]

not because this war was make for you guys since from the beginning, WMs, did very well balanced for that....

Please, Team Aether, stop that "bullying" towards air...
Team Air has made fine deck choices this War and they also were lucky enough. Their SoFres are just the cherry to the top of the cake. A good team is a good team nonetheless.

Please not is team is my opinion like player, and without sofree is hard to see in the top. Those rules and prices for some shards in this war is absolute without sense of balance, demesne is correct, about WMs have your inexperience clearly showed and  simply had no idea how to run the event.
will be another long war just because increase the points start of 20k to 30k one mistake terrible, besides being a long war the teams buy a lot of shards (that was more cheaper in case of air) and now you can transmut it. well good luck  and have fun for those who believe to be having fun.

[worldwideweb3]

Umm...despite points increase, starting vaults were about the same size as last year, and some were lower too...also, air has build decks without sofree, you know?

[Vangelios]

Umm...despite points increase, starting vaults were about the same size as last year, and some were lower too...also, air has build decks without sofree, you know?

build decks without sofree in this war? well if yes so trasmut shards was a mistake balance in this war like I said above, (now you can add shards without pain for that)
"despite points increase, starting vaults were about the same size as last year" if last war was long this war should be smaller and not the same size, the péople should correct your mistakes and not embrace, at least I believe in this.

[Aves]

Umm...despite points increase, starting vaults were about the same size as last year, and some were lower too...also, air has build decks without sofree, you know?

build decks without sofree in this war? well if yes so trasmut shards was a mistake balance in this war like I said above, (now you can add shards without pain for that)
"despite points increase, starting vaults were about the same size as last year" if last war was long this war should be smaller and not the same size, the péople should correct your mistakes and not embrace, at least I believe in this.

The vaults are roughly the same size. The discards are 20 instead of 15. therefore, this war will be faster. By the trajectory, it's going to be by a significant margin, too.

In addition, they can only transmute shards if they have less than 12. Let's take a look at that win rate again. Clearly, they haven't lost enough of them for transmuting to even be an issue. Transmutation is only a concern for losing teams.

Finally, we mention Team Aether because it's ironic that Team Aether is finally complaining about "OP cards." Because there clearly have never been complaints about that towards Aether.

[Vangelios]

The problem with OP cards was already solved with markting, the transmut for  and always be good but this war was retrograde absolute about shards balance and the duration, I said before starts war that it should be a smaller war just if 1 or 2 teams wins full time, even so from what I noticed is still long....

[Afdarenty]

... and without sofree is hard to see in the top ...

Taking average standings of the 4 previous Wars without Shards, the only element that comes in ahead of Air is Aether. In that time, Air finished second place twice, and had an inexperienced General (me, at the time) to bring down the average as well.

So you're saying Aether was so imbalanced before Shards were added that it's hard to see the second strongest element ever winning? Just to clarify


I'm not going to make any comments regarding how favourable the market is for Air, or for any other team, before seeing the starting vaults for each team. It's impossible to form any opinions based on the starting size of each vault, as different vault building strategies (e.g. cheaper decks vs stronger decks, lots of fodder cards vs few fodder cards) will effect the number of cards just as much as the market prices will. If other teams had a similar vault building strategy to us then I'd agree that Air needs to be more expensive next War. But only if.

I can, however, say with absolute confidence that starting with 20, 30, or even 50 fewer cards would have had absolutely no effect on our win rate so far. We'd only be winning by x less cards.

[Vangelios]

... and without sofree is hard to see in the top ...

Taking average standings of the 4 previous Wars without Shards, the only element that comes in ahead of Air is Aether. In that time, Air finished second place twice, and had an inexperienced General (me, at the time) to bring down the average as well.

So you're saying Aether was so imbalanced before Shards were added that it's hard to see the second strongest element ever winning? Just to clarify



I'm not going to make any comments regarding how favourable the market is for Air, or for any other team, before seeing the starting vaults for each team. It's impossible to form any opinions based on the starting size of each vault, as different vault building strategies (e.g. cheaper decks vs stronger decks, lots of fodder cards vs few fodder cards) will effect the number of cards just as much as the market prices will. If other teams had a similar vault building strategy to us then I'd agree that Air needs to be more expensive next War. But only if.

I can, however, say with absolute confidence that starting with 20, 30, or even 50 fewer cards would have had absolutely no effect on our win rate so far. We'd only be winning by x less cards.

Then about  and  I can see effort to nerf in war, but for   (the second strongest element after aether like you said) I can see just buff... 20 or 30 is another thing about the war duration, however if you said that don't have diference show how many is be unbalanced

[mrpaper]

I don't think the overall number of cards (starting points) is a major point in  vault unless that number was to be cut a ton.  I don't think the duration of war is a problem either... though I would have prefer it would be a bit closer to the end as of now.  The transmutation for shards is a problem to me, but wouldn't have solved much here (so far) as  keeps on piling wins anyway, maybe if anything they would have hesitate more to send em as they would have feared to lose em but that is all.  The only problem I see is that sofree is so much OP as a card, most teams can't solve it at all even if predicted... so the real problem is the card should have been ban (but people wanted all shads I get that) or at a skyhigh price so high that air would have needed to drop a few decks to have them... and mostly, you should never be able to transmute for those! 

Other teams also have OP cards, but fractals, dims, discord, sopa, etc. .... they all have ways around them if you predict right, it is hard, hence  the reason they cost a lot, but none of them is a near guaranteed win when in the deck.

[Zawadx]

In my opinion, the rules do not favor air any more than they did last war. It just that team air has learned how to reach their full potential and is unleashing that (if this isn't Air's full potential, I'm too scared to acknowledge whatever is). Before we compain about anything we must acknowledge the level that team Air has managed to reach.

Now, Air is starting to have the same OP effect that Aether once had, except vs strong teams as well as weaker ones. SoFree is a decent part of the reason why, but even without it Air is pretty much complete (though SoFree enhances the completeness, perhaps with a 25% multiplier). I suppose air should get the aether treatment if markets continue next war.

[Vangelios]

In my opinion, the rules do not favor air any more than they did last war. It just that team air has learned how to reach their full potential and is unleashing that (if this isn't Air's full potential, I'm too scared to acknowledge whatever is). Before we compain about anything we must acknowledge the level that team Air has managed to reach.

Now, Air is starting to have the same OP effect that Aether once had, except vs strong teams as well as weaker ones. SoFree is a decent part of the reason why, but even without it Air is pretty much complete (though SoFree enhances the completeness, perhaps with a 25% multiplier). I suppose air should get the aether treatment if markets continue next war.

It is definitely not the same level OP, is more... I was in old wars  had difficuties to beat (second place like Afdarenty said above)

[deuce22]

I have to side more with Afda on all of this.

Air has been strong for many wars, always top 3-4 for the last 4-5 wars I think, damn near won 1 or 2 of them. Air is one of the few elements that aether is weak against, and air gets drastically stronger as you increase the number of upgrades in war, which is why they've been near the top for a while now, and it was only a matter of time before they finally pulled off a win. I thought it would have been last war, but better late than never, I guess. And I think air would have won war whether they had sofree or not.

As far as OP cards go, dims are annoying and fractals are extremely strong. But their is no deck with either or both of those cards that each element can't make to counter it near 100% of the time. Sofree blows dims and fractals out of the water. Some elements can make counters to sofree, but some can't. And as afda has gained experince, he's optimized the build to the point where the best aether can do is 40-50% winrate. Supposedly higs has a counter, but I will have to see that after war. Anyways, any team fielding a single deck that counters most of a teams vault and has at least 50% chance against the other decks in the vault is frankly unallowable in war. I've never been an advocate for shards in war because I feared something like this would happen. I will admit that there have been some interesting decks this war that utilized shards, but I still prefer they should be banned from war. At the minimum, there needs to be heavy restrictions on them. Possibly even individualize the restrictions for each shard. Food for thought.

Now onto market prices. The reason I hate market prices is because it factors in cards that are used for all elements rather than each individual element. Aether has a couple strong cards that each element can take advantage of and use in war. As a result, aether cards are drastically overpriced for team aether. Aether could have lost every game this war, and market prices for aether would still be crazy expensive next war. I really think this needs to be abandoned.

[mrpaper]

I have to side more with Afda on all of this.

Air has been strong for many wars, always top 3-4 for the last 4-5 wars I think, damn near won 1 or 2 of them. Air is one of the few elements that aether is weak against, and air gets drastically stronger as you increase the number of upgrades in war, which is why they've been near the top for a while now, and it was only a matter of time before they finally pulled off a win. I thought it would have been last war, but better late than never, I guess. And I think air would have won war whether they had sofree or not.

As far as OP cards go, dims are annoying and fractals are extremely strong. But their is no deck with either or both of those cards that each element can't make to counter it near 100% of the time. Sofree blows dims and fractals out of the water. Some elements can make counters to sofree, but some can't. And as afda has gained experince, he's optimized the build to the point where the best aether can do is 40-50% winrate. Supposedly higs has a counter, but I will have to see that after war. Anyways, any team fielding a single deck that counters most of a teams vault and has at least 50% chance against the other decks in the vault is frankly unallowable in war. I've never been an advocate for shards in war because I feared something like this would happen. I will admit that there have been some interesting decks this war that utilized shards, but I still prefer they should be banned from war. At the minimum, there needs to be heavy restrictions on them. Possibly even individualize the restrictions for each shard. Food for thought.

Now onto market prices. The reason I hate market prices is because it factors in cards that are used for all elements rather than each individual element. Aether has a couple strong cards that each element can take advantage of and use in war. As a result, aether cards are drastically overpriced for team aether. Aether could have lost every game this war, and market prices for aether would still be crazy expensive next war. I really think this needs to be abandoned.

Agree with all you said save for the last part... the simple solution to market price was having an in-element discount say 20% (could be more or less).  It would allow cards that are used by lots of teams to still be affordable by the said team.  Works for dims and fractals in aether.. but I can think of many more, vampire dagger is a good card... but what makes it expensive is that it is versatile so everyone can use it... now does darkness build more powerful decks because other elements can use it?  Of course not, the only way it helps them is they have a higher chance to salvage it.  Which lead me to say that I also have been asking for a long time that salvage could be modified for teams that rarely if ever gets any in-element stuff to salvage (mostly  ).  Having them start with a bigger vault helps at start.. but the road gets much harder if they need to use 2:1 transmutations for every loss. to rebuild in element stuff.  The most simple way was to give a deck with free 1:1 transmutation every round so unless you go 0-5, you can choose to retool your own stuff if needed be.