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War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233132#msg1233132
« on: May 17, 2016, 08:05:26 am »
Everything you see in this thread is subject to change.

Starting this one early so we can get War going soon after Trials ends.



Current Plans for War #10

Things we're keeping:
  • Shards
  • Player auction
  • Market vaultbuilding system
  • Soldier boosts
  • Unlimited pillars/pendulums in vault
  • 3 in-element upgrade rule

Things we're changing:
  • Adding sideboards
  • Market price rebalancing
  • Increasing late-game discards from 15 to 24
  • Possible reduction to 5-player teams
  • Changes to upgrade amounts
  • Changes to Tinkerer, Mercenary and Gambler boosts
  • Granting Relics for excellent round performances



Spoiler for Sideboards:
Sideboards for all players have been discussed a considerable amount in previous Wars, but they've yet to make it in. The current plan for this War is to introduce an optional 4-card sideboard for all decks.

Teams will submit their deck as usual, keeping things simple for vault management. If the deck is 34 cards or larger, the player will have the chance to remove up to 4 cards from it during their match. Players utilizing the sideboard must use the full deck for the first game of the match, and can exchange cards afterwards.

Concern has been raised in the past that this will benefit certain elements more than others - discussion on this point would be great.

Spoiler for Market Prices:
Certain elements such as Light were unfairly punished with very expensive key-card prices in War #9, and other elements like Gravity benefited from an enormous starting vault due to their cheap market prices. We like the idea of playing with a market again, but prices will be rebalanced to reduce the massive vault size gap between first and last place at the beginning of the first round.

Shards will also see a cost rebalance.

Spoiler for Increasing Discards:
To shorten War from 16 rounds to a more suitable 10-12, our options are to either reduce the number of initial points for vaultbuilding, or to increase discards per round. Since having a larger and more flexible vault makes for a more entertaining event, we think increasing discards per round is the more suitable method for shortening War.

RoundDiscards from deckDiscards from vaultTotal DiscardsSalvage
10666
257126
3108186
4+159246
  • "Vault discards" can also be picked from the losing deck.

Salvaging is increased slightly to make transmutations a little easier to manage, and to offset the increase discard penalties. A 4-1 round will "break even", while capping the number of cards discarded from the deck itself will help to prevent teams from losing all their in-element cards from late-game mono/duo losses.

Spoiler for 5-player Teams:
A lot of comments were made that our community simply wasn't large enough to support 6-man teams last War, and most teams had at least one inactive player in their roster. We're hoping for the best, but depending on signups this year, we may look at reducing the maximum team size.

Spoiler for Upgrade Allocations:
Changes will be made so that Lt. is more significant than the Upgrades soldier boost.

RoleUpgrades
General12
Lieutenant10
Upgrades Boost8
Soldier7

3 in-element upgrades will still be required for each role.

Spoiler for Soldier Boost Changes:
Tinkerer
The suggestion to change the Tinkerer rule to only allow Pendulums to be treated as in-element cards may work, but it hurts legitimate Tinkerer "splash" decks such as Ghostmare from Darkness, Chaos Wyrms from Entropy and Graboid rush from Time. One option, even though it's a little clunky, is to force a certain percentage of in-element cards (maybe 25-33%) to prevent teams from creating monos of other elements.

Mercenary
Mercenary was designed with the intent of allowing a little more freedom for building trios, but it was essentially just a buff to Grabbows last War. The plan here is to restrict the number of elements allowed in a Mercenary deck this time.

Gambler
Correctly guessing the match outcome resulted in a pretty low payout - we'll increase the number of relics awarded by a correct guess this War, to provide more incentive to use this boost.

Spoiler for Granting Relics:
Rather than having Event Cards as the only real way to obtain Relics for the late-game, a system for rewarding teams that perform very well (either 4-1 or 5-0 in a round) may be introduced.



Feel free to post your thoughts about any or all of these points, but please keep your feedback constructive.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 08:10:55 am by Physsion »

Offline Sera

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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233133#msg1233133
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 08:48:44 am »
What if Tinkerer simply allowed ignoring pillars/pends from the 50% rule? This way, you can actually run the pillars or pendulums that you want to use, while still making it require your team's element. I'm not so certain if this is abusable, and it still does limit teams from doing pure mark splashes, but that's what the 25% rule would do anyway, and now teams can't run off-element monos.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 09:03:17 am by Sera »

Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233141#msg1233141
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 12:50:03 pm »
Well looks like you we're much involved in last war as I love all the adjustments save for one.  Giving sideboard to everyone means tons of trouble for deckbuilding and preparation time going x4 and it also means that less experience players will suffer a ton from this as they don't know as much which card to add/remove so they will lose more and are prone to be subbed more often.  Deckbuilding already takes so much time.. you don't want teams to go crazy with this as they will stop to care fast.  Also, sideboard was OP to every other role even General, if it is brought back at all (not for everyone) it should be nerf to 2 cards or something like that.  I trluly believe that this is enough to make the event turn sour as proposed so please reconsider!

That said, the work so far from you looks great!  Keep it up!

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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233142#msg1233142
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 12:58:58 pm »
Sideboards - Not a fan of them, personally
Market prices - Pretty sure you guys will do a good job. Waiting on the sheet first.
Discards - Fair enough
5 team - Probabaly a good thing, supporting this.
Upgrade allocation: possible to increase ups of a general? 15 would be good.
Soldier boosts changes: All look good for now.
Relic granting: Dont support this. It just helps teams doing well already, so the other teams pretty much give up.
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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233145#msg1233145
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 01:47:29 pm »
If discards are increased, salvages should be increased as well. I missed 6 salvage, it allows you to build more fun decks and requires you to put in effort to ensure the best use. Of course, 4 salvage did push me to my limits last war and led to a lot creativity in vault management, so I can see a reason for keeping it.
Do note that if you keep 4 salvage and increase discards, you'll have to do something else to help winners. Tho the relic awards might be enough? It might damage 1-4 or 2-3 results tho.

I had 3 inactive players, and I still support 6 players. It allows more people to have a chance at participation, plus you're still gonna have inactives at 5 players. Having subs be more available is a thing, but how well do they even work out?

For market, imo teams should have a discount for in-element stuff. This mostly applies to light tho, so maybe careful tinkering there could work out?
I'm also gonna urge you guys to test the final market a lot. Maybe have an open project where people can pm you their best designs for vaults? And try them out in mock-rounds to see how effective they are?

Gambler's low payout was prolly due to variance: please try to make it less of a... well, gamble?

25% has performed decently in Trials, so maybe start there for Tinkerer? Of course in Trials it's to ensure you're duoing with another element instead of building an in-element mono, while here it's to prevent off-element monos so there's prolly differences.

Upgrade boost is too weak now, whaaa. Still think Lt. should just be a second stab at every role, maybe with +1 upgrade?

For sideboard discussion: what you want is hands-on testing. Set up a project to test the format, and then we can get some valuable input.


 
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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233153#msg1233153
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 02:12:19 pm »
I like sideboard as a role, not for everyone. Also, I think 3 cards is the magic number here.

We'll see about the market prices when they're actually posted.

5 man teams for sure this war, we don't want inactive people.

Relics for 5-0/4-1 teams is a pretty bad idea imo. It also favours winning early when nobody knows what to expect and being in an unfair advantage later on.

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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233162#msg1233162
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 02:56:00 pm »
While Lt > Upgrades is a good thing, having a normal SU be only +1 seems a bit weak.

Relics: The system for them definitely needs to be expanded, and I think this is a step in the right direction. However, I don't think that Gambler works as a role. Even with the change, it's still too unlikely to guess correctly for the pay-off to matter-- all it does is reward suiciding, the only time the role has really been a major factor. If we still want a guessing mechanic on results to reward relics, why not guess how well your team's doing in each round? +1 relic for guessing correctly that you'd go 4-1 or 2-3, or something along those lines.

Team size: We were all really active in the last team :darkness. I can't imagine how it must've been like in a team with 2-3 inactives. I think subbing needs a closer look here-- have active subs who've been following the event ready to go.
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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233164#msg1233164
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 03:06:16 pm »
Keep teams at 6 but only have 5 matches. That gives you a one-person buffer in case someone goes afk. The team would just arrange the players in a thread in their team section stating the players who will be battling that round.

I still wish 'Scout' was a role. Ability: see your opponent's deck before the game. The deck is posted by the WMs in the team's thread.

Get rid of Lt entirely or allow the General and Lt access to some, if not all, of the abilities. Their % of more upped cards isn't as impactful as 6-0 or 9-3.

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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233166#msg1233166
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2016, 03:39:33 pm »
Sideboards -- As a role I like it... and at 3 cards. As an addition to EVERY role/player or up to 6 cards I do not like it.



Market -- As stated by others I feel this set of WM's will handle as well as could be expected for this feature's 2nd-run. I really like the idea from Zawadx about the certain-element-disadvantage being addressed, at least attempted to be addressed, by in-element discounts rather than overall-cost-lessening.



SDCTP -- I have no issue with the proposed "Total Discards" and "Salvage" values but would like to ask for clarification on discards from deck, discards from vault, and the phrase/sub-note '"Vault discards" can also be picked from the losing deck.' as it seems to contradict the idea that the two categories of discard are even separate/different.



5-player teams -- *sigh* I vacillate wildly on this constantly back-and-forth. I have led two War teams and I have participated on two War teams all of which had inactives (in one of the four it was ME for part of the event!) and/or no-shows (oh so much worse). Let me explain both of my two-face sides on this issue/topic:
"Max players" (in our usual case, this is '6'): Pros - This. Promotes. Involvement. The members of EtG community that know this ride tend to do their best to recruit to the War event when we know the teams will be forced to have 6 players. Also, more slots open for the newer, unheralded, or unknown players to get into the event and get a taste for it. (I myself am a one-time 1-card auction bid onto a team of Shantu's that cemented Death's place at the top of my favorite list -- I now have two Death Trial titles and am chasing a third!) [Refer to most of the Less Players' cons]
Cons - Some generals will be, or will feel, forced into drafting players that make them uncomfortable to have on their team. [Refer to most of the Less Players' pros]

"Less players" (in our usual discussion this is '5'): Pros - Smaller teams have many benefits.
(a) less chance of having inactive players / more inactive players on a team
(b) no need for any rules about sitting out players and having to consider abuse of that rule/aspect
(c) reduction of the Herculean deckbuilding efforts required each round, specifically on teams where a player is inactive or less-egregiously a team with a player or two having a busy week or RL schedule {especially true if the all-role's-sideboard makes it into the ruleset}
(d) assists with this obsession about "shortening the event" to less than X rounds aiming at some seemingly arbitrary Y round ideal-length event :D
(e) [Refer to most of the Less Players' pros]
Cons - We run the risk of keeping a player out of the event that might have developed into part of the future PvP-or-otherwise contingent of this forum and game. I know many of us played the game or were on the forum prior to participating in a War event but I know that is was a major player in my sticking around and deciding to hone my skills, deepen my community involvement, and even plays a roll in my deciding to defend my title.
* Sidenote: For me this risk is not as major as others tend to see it... there are a lot of PvP events and other going on around here that if War was "make or break" for a player to stick around then I'm not sure they would have stuck anyways. While this may be a controversial comment to some (hopefully not) I stand by it: Keeping the quality of teams up in the War event should be an increased priority compared to recent running of the event.



Upgrade allotments -- I generally agree in this strategy, Generals highest with Lt less than Gen but more than any other role. Given reign over the actual value I'd go more for 12-10-8-6 - any chance you can give reasoning for the seemingly odd "7" for vanilla upgrade role upgrade counts? Also the wording seems off almost implying you HAVE to upgrade three in-element cards... It is more akin to upgrade counts of 9-7-5-3 (Gen-Lt-Role-Others) with a bonus +3 any in-element upgrades. :)



Soldier boosts -- As Zawadx stated...
Quote
Gambler's low payout was prolly due to variance: please try to make it less of a... well, gamble?

25% has performed decently in Trials, so maybe start there for Tinkerer? Of course in Trials it's to ensure you're duoing with another element instead of building an in-element mono, while here it's to prevent off-element monos so there's prolly differences.

Upgrade boost is too weak now, whaaa. Still think Lt. should just be a second stab at every role, maybe with +1 upgrade?
.



Relics -- I'm not happy to admit it but I have never reached rounds of War where relics meant anything more than "we expect any round now could be our last, so we'll pump relics at our weakest opponents to try to extend our War-event-lives". Therefore, my opinion here is rather weak and underinformed/inexperienced in its support and foundation. Hence, I must defer to others' opinions on this matter. :D
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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233172#msg1233172
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 05:56:43 pm »



SDCTP -- I have no issue with the proposed "Total Discards" and "Salvage" values but would like to ask for clarification on discards from deck, discards from vault, and the phrase/sub-note '"Vault discards" can also be picked from the losing deck.' as it seems to contradict the idea that the two categories of discard are even separate/different.


Discards from the deck must be taken from the deck that lost it's match.
Discards from the vault can be taken from anywhere in the vault.
"Vault Discards can also be picked from the losing deck" by this we mean that the discards for Vault discards can be taken from anywhere in the vault, even if they were in the losing deck.

Example: Team A loses a game in Round 3, thus a total of 18 discards.10 cards have to come from the losing deck. The other 8 discards can be taken from any remaining non-pillar/pendulum cards in the losing deck or anywhere in the vault.



Hope this helps clarify it.
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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233173#msg1233173
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 06:10:29 pm »



SDCTP -- I have no issue with the proposed "Total Discards" and "Salvage" values but would like to ask for clarification on discards from deck, discards from vault, and the phrase/sub-note '"Vault discards" can also be picked from the losing deck.' as it seems to contradict the idea that the two categories of discard are even separate/different.


Discards from the deck must be taken from the deck that lost it's match.
Discards from the vault can be taken from anywhere in the vault.
"Vault Discards can also be picked from the losing deck" by this we mean that the discards for Vault discards can be taken from anywhere in the vault, even if they were in the losing deck.

Example: Team A loses a game in Round 3, thus a total of 18 discards.10 cards have to come from the losing deck. The other 8 discards can be taken from any remaining non-pillar/pendulum cards in the losing deck or anywhere in the vault.



Hope this helps clarify it.

What if the deck/example in question has fewer non-pill/pend cards in it than the "discards from deck"?  Does it then flow left-to-right and become an addition onto the "discards from vault" value?
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Re: War #10 - Planned Changes (Discussion) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61944.msg1233182#msg1233182
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2016, 08:29:34 pm »
at 24 discards... losses will need to come from the vault as well no matter since pillars/pends are free.  But I like that as it helps teams that are stuck with salvage that rarely fits with they're vault.  Now do we want to say you lose all ure cards from and then start from the vault or let the teams save a few cards from decks?  I would prefer the latter as otherwise, you might kill 2-3 decks with only 1 loss since you will not have those key cards.  Say maybe the 14 first cards needs to come from deck?  (counting 12-13 pillars to that, it leaves very little on a 30 card deck).

 

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