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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238162#msg1238162
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2016, 08:55:53 pm »
Short form, reasoning at the end of the post in spoiler.

Aside from SoI costing as much as Graboid, I believe Mind Gate and Procrastination prices should be lowered 10 cards. Chaos Seed out of creatures I mean wtf. Purple Nymph down 5 possibly I don't see it as powerful enough to warrant it to cost the same as Sapphire Charger.
 
Actually more than giving suggestions, I'd like to know the reasoning behind most of the modifiers (I mean diss shield +46, Trident +49, voodoo doll -47).

Spoiler for Hidden:
Anyway, reasoning behind my specific suggestions:

SoI: 120 for what's possibly the weakest standalone shard is insane. I know it can get stupidly oppressive, but it needs a lot of upgrades, a lot of shards and many elements. This means a dedicated costly deck very inefficient for war deckbuilding. Add to this that, without being able to run all of the elements for good SoIs, it becomes a huge card sink. Definitely does not deserves a cost this high. 60 brings it in line with "weak" shards like Shard of Bravery / Shard of Readiness, i mean what the hell is this travesty why does SoI cost double these please. WHY DOES THIS COST AS MUCH AS THE WAR OVERLORD GRABOID.

Mind Gate: I can't remember Mind Gate in a war deck since war 2. And it worked awfully because pendulums naturally counter Mind Gate. Note that predicting matchups does not really mean Mind Gate has been used. More seriously, I don't think Mind Gate will become popular even if it costed 5. Maybe as a vault fill. Perhaps at 5 the odd mind gate deck would surface again, but having it cost 30 sounds like a way to inflate average prices for aether without actually doing anything where needed. Lowering it by 10 also brings it in line with other bad permanents like flooding and boneyard. Talking about permanents, boneyard costing more than Soul Catcher is odd, but w/e I don't mind. Cloak at 10 scares me please don't. Make Cloak 20

Procrastination: The only way procrastination works is that I have an exam tomorrow and I'm writing this post. Procrastination could be compared with Dusk Mantle, since both are meant to reduce around 50% of damage (even if we all know dusk actually blocks 80% damage). So why would procrastination need to cost much less than Mantle, less than half even? Because it sucks. It has no vamp dagger to heal behind, it ignores weapons completely, it doesn't help against any kind of burst damage and it's also the only shield time has, and that's the only reason it sees any use.

Purple Nymph: Again, a bad card overpriced due to unknown reasons.

Chaos Seed: I'm not kidding, it's not a creature. Stop the spell abuse.
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Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238220#msg1238220
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2016, 03:31:45 am »
All that RR just said applies to me.. saves for the diss shield which I think déserved a raise... But à much smaller one for sure!  Titan is weak while doll is not!
Also..how is it going to help war to upped the price of all the unused cards???
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 03:33:53 am by mrpaper »

Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238295#msg1238295
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2016, 12:56:42 pm »
Since there is no one reporting on massive amount of cards... I guess I'll do it since they seems so off to me...

Short bow, boneyard, aflatoxin, colossal dragon, graviton slavager, firefly, immortal, phase dragons  : unused and not of much power... don't jacked the price at all if we want a slim chance that they are in war!

Maxwell demon: useless outside of entropy and a minor threat when used.. not worth such a big raise... 40 is more then enough.

Abomination: great for entropy rush or entropy duo with disco... was worth it's price, maybe 70 would have been ok.

Dissip shield:  worth a raise since you build the entropy stall around it... but it's so easy to counter, it's not worth 70 at all... maybe 50.

Lycanthrope: great for entropy/dark duo and most nova deck, worth more then 70 for sure... maybe 90.

Antimatter:  cost is too high to be such a big threat especially when expected.. price of 70 is about right.

Pandemonium:  Great CC to clean up the board and stay hidden behind walls.  It is totally worth 90-100

purple nymph: dies too easily and takes too long to come in play to be a great threat.. price of 50 was great.

Poison: used by most team to come as a great surprise threat and is really effective... worth 100-110 easily!

Armagio: barely worth playing... not worth more then 30.

Gravity pull: works really well with titans/dolls and can be helpful at other times too, it is worth more then 60... would have picked 80 but 70 is an ok middle ground.

Catapult:  Useless outside of catatitans and not that great even then... not worth more then 40-50.

Shard of intergrity: been discussed before... wouldn't used it even at a cost of 30 because of the 50% rule (even at 40% if the role comes back) and becuase of the insane price of combined shards!

Emerald dragon: 60 is a bit high as it rarely wins by itself anything... 50 is enough.

Druidic staff... 60 is a bit high as it rarely pulls you a win even when flying them... 40 is enough.

Forest spirit: great filler for nova deck, worth at least 80... maybe 90.

Firebolt: a great cc and is the main weapon in many stalls as it can 1hk... it is worth well 110 if not 120.

Trident: up there when we talk of the lamest weapon for an element... not worth more then 30-40.

Steam machine: Too slow to be effective, not worth more then 30.

Miracle:  good card, but not worth 150.. sancurary will be much more helpful then miracle to save you.. and they are 130.... 110 would be enough

Dragon fly: key card in air rush.. worth it's 50!

Procrastination: one of the lamest shields, not worth more then 30-40.

Ghost of the past: nice in rush, and the master card in ghostmare.... totally worth 80-90 cards!

Black dragon:  meshes really well in many dark decks mono/pu+ls mostly but a great filler in most dark deck too... worth at least 80.

Devourer:  the card everyone hates and face to see... kills all the off mark deck and anything that is not high on quanta... worth 100 easily!

Vampire:  really useful in devtals and in monos with eclipse... worth at least 50 if not 60.

Voodoo dolls:  great to be poisoned but mostly to receive gp on it... there was 0 need to put the price down!  Worth 60.

Nightmare:  great fractal killer!  Absolutely needed in ghostmare (duh!), great in monos and in nova decks... worth at least 120!

Cloak: .... not a great card, but better then a 10 cost.... should look more like 30.

Lobotomizer... the actual price is a bit high 50 would be more accurate as it is mostly a filler for aether only.


And that's it!!
























 





 

« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 06:02:17 pm by mrpaper »

Offline serprex

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238402#msg1238402
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2016, 12:37:30 am »
@mrpaper +1

Disagree a bit on the hate towards popular rainbow cards, as nova decks will already be a bit expensive

Also on Miracle vs Sanctuary: would you rather run 1 sanctuary or 1 miracle? Important to look at card price based on worth of having 1 copy of card. Thus devourers being a bit low in cost are alright since one must run many copies to pull off devtal

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238405#msg1238405
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2016, 12:51:36 am »
Selfishly focussing on :light cards here to agree that Miracle and Sanctuary are both too expensive.

Alternative:

Miracle 130
Sanctuary 110

This is my totally unbiased opinion.

Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238416#msg1238416
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2016, 02:41:08 am »
@mrpaper +1

Disagree a bit on the hate towards popular rainbow cards, as nova decks will already be a bit expensive

Also on Miracle vs Sanctuary: would you rather run 1 sanctuary or 1 miracle? Important to look at card price based on worth of having 1 copy of card. Thus devourers being a bit low in cost are alright since one must run many copies to pull off devtal
Thanks you for the +1!
I don't really hate rainbow cards... Thèse were just the ones too effective for the cost... No wonder its à popular deck.. its filled with some of the best from each element!

1 miracle works better then 1 sanctuary true enough... Now would you rather have 6 miracles or sanct?  Not many cards are strong with 1 copy and gain very little from extras save maybe for weapons and sometimes shield.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 02:54:30 am by mrpaper »

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238423#msg1238423
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2016, 04:53:42 am »
Thanks for all the feedback so far.

Just a little disclaimer I want to get out there - please bear in mind that, apart from spreadsheet help from serprex, and feedback from several users (particularly Afdarenty and Calindu), I've been doing this alone, in my free time.

There's been a lot of scripting and manual work involved with this price list, and it's only a very small part of the whole event. Just letting you know that this is a pretty big task, mistakes are bound to be made, and although I'm doing my best to make this a fair and balanced price list, I can't please everyone.

Spoiler for Changes:
Fixed Chaos Seed being listed as a creature, it's now a Spell. This list was pulled from dek.im/database, so any errors in the way cards are listed are due to errors there. Fixed both comparison tables.



Abomination cost remains at 60.

Antimatter cost remains at 90.

Armagio cost reduced to 40 (-10 points.)

Black Dragon cost remains at 65 points.

Catapult cost remains at 70 points.

Cloak cost increased to 20 (+10 points.)

Devourer cost remains at 80 points.

Dissipation Shield cost remains at 70.

Dragonfly cost increased to 45 (+5 points.)

Druidic Staff cost remains at 60.

Emerald Dragon cost reduced to 55 points (-5 points.)

Fire Bolt cost remains at 100 points.

Forest Spirit cost remains at 70 points.

Gravity Pull cost increased to 70 (+10 points.)

Lobotomizer cost remains at 70.

Lycanthrope cost remains at 70.

Maxwell's Demon cost remains at 50.

Mindgate cost reduced to 20 (-10 points.)

Minor Vampire cost increased to 50 (+10 points.)

Miracle cost reduced to 130 (-20 points.)

Nightmare cost increased to 110 (+10 points.)

Pandemonium cost increased to 60 (+10 points.)

Procrastination cost remains at 50.

Poison cost increased to 70 (+10 points.)

Purple Nymph cost remains at 80.

Sanctuary cost reduced to 110 (-20 points.)

Shard of Integrity cost remains at 120, after feedback from Generals.

Steam Machine cost remains at 45 points.

Titan cost remains at 90 points.

Trident cost remains at 75 points.

Voodoo Doll cost increased to 30 (+10 points.)

Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238436#msg1238436
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2016, 12:17:11 pm »
Thanks for all the feedback so far.

Just a little disclaimer I want to get out there - please bear in mind that, apart from spreadsheet help from serprex, and feedback from several users (particularly Afdarenty and Calindu), I've been doing this alone, in my free time.

There's been a lot of scripting and manual work involved with this price list, and it's only a very small part of the whole event. Just letting you know that this is a pretty big task, mistakes are bound to be made, and although I'm doing my best to make this a fair and balanced price list, I can't please everyone.

Thank you for youre time.. I know it ain't easy and it's impossible that everyone agrees with every price!

I don't know if the first part was left out or forgot by you but...Short bow, boneyard, aflatoxin, colossal dragon, graviton slavager, firefly, immortal, phase dragons  : unused and not of much power... don't jacked the price at all if we want a slim chance that they are in war!


Also, you forgot to talk about the Ghost of the past which is a great threat!





for those that weren't changed...  I put red into the biggest problems


Abomination cost remains at 60. Minor thing, I don't mind

Antimatter cost remains at 90.  Makes it totally unappealing outside of entropy but I guess it balance with abomination so fine.


Black Dragon cost remains at 65 points. Still disagree but I can live with it

Catapult cost remains at 70 points. It is really way too high for a under average card... the deck get killed if catapult fails to come or is destroy/stolen and is often too slow as it need all the right cards to come early.

Devourer cost remains at 80 points.  Devourer is one of the best creature in the game in this meta... especially with novas costing so much, meaning we can't send bows at darkness all the time now this really help you guys in war 9.... you should know this!  it is well worth it's 100!

Dissipation Shield cost remains at 70.  It's still is a bot to high but it will likely be there in 1 deck total and for entropy only so I guess not big deal except from em.


Druidic Staff cost remains at 60.  I'm sad for life who can't get a break but ok I guess.


Fire Bolt cost remains at 100 points. Fire bolt is at least as good as a miracle... yet miracle =130 (even after price down)... something is off here.

Forest Spirit cost remains at 70 points.  I'm ok with it.


Lobotomizer cost remains at 70.  It's ok... but aether is so costy now... and lobo is such a minor threat compare to vampire dagger, discord and arsenic,and at some extent, from farheneit eternity and titan too it should be way below them.

Lycanthrope cost remains at 70.  Well everyone uses em but darkness and entropy gains a lot from this cheap price.

Maxwell's Demon cost remains at 50.  Minor thing, I don't care


Procrastination cost remains at 50.  Won't be used at all at this price, but it's fine I guess.


Purple Nymph cost remains at 80. it's ok I guess.


Shard of Integrity cost remains at 120, after feedback from Generals.  Useless to me, but not worth fighting for!

Steam Machine cost remains at 45 points.  Minor thing, it's fine

Titan cost remains at 90 points. It's ok I guess.

Trident cost remains at 75 points.  This is really bad for water but then again, even them don't use it much!



Thank you again for the efforts!

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238438#msg1238438
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2016, 01:25:03 pm »
@mrpaper:
 Look at some combos...
* Titan alone is an above average card imo but it is Catapult that makes it insane while flying. So, we either raise the cost of Flying Weapon, affecting everything from flying Dirks to flying adrenastaves, or have a high Catapult price and affect just the Catatitans deck.
* Miracle is in a SoD meta. It is much stronger than Firebolt in a meta like this imo and the best healing card in the game nonetheless. Except if SoDs are expensive enough to justify The Immortal and similar decks, Miracle's price must remain high.
* I forgot to add that Immortal & Phase Dragon are on a SoW meta...
 Just my 2 cents...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 04:18:30 pm by ARTHANASIOS »
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Offline mrpaper

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238439#msg1238439
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2016, 01:41:13 pm »
Miracle price is still very very high... yet at 130 I am ok with it and didn't wanted it to go more down.. let's pretend I agree that miracle is the best healing card you can get, well firebolt is the best dealing damage card as well so it should be at least on par with it.   It is not much stronger then firebolt at all as bolts are great in monos fire, in stall with dials, or in lightstall... heck it can also work well with other stalls with a smaller vault and still be a major threat... bonewalls, dims, etc.  Sod are good but they are forcing you to use light mark so it has it's limits for outside of light users and they can be overrushed by fractals decks... which are more then common.   

I guess you got a point with other catatitans cards being a bit on the cheap so catapult is fine at a high price.

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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238444#msg1238444
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2016, 04:17:16 pm »
Miracle price is still very very high... yet at 130 I am ok with it and didn't wanted it to go more down.. let's pretend I agree that miracle is the best healing card you can get, well firebolt is the best dealing damage card as well so it should be at least on par with it.   It is not much stronger then firebolt at all as bolts are great in monos fire, in stall with dials, or in lightstall... heck it can also work well with other stalls with a smaller vault and still be a major threat... bonewalls, dims, etc.  Sod are good but they are forcing you to use light mark so it has it's limits for outside of light users and they can be overrushed by fractals decks... which are more then common.   

I guess you got a point with other catatitans cards being a bit on the cheap so catapult is fine at a high price.

I am convienced. Miracle and Fire Bolt should cost about the same...
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Re: War #10 - Market Prices https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=62295.msg1238450#msg1238450
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2016, 08:17:59 pm »
I also just saw that rain of fire = thunderstorm in prices... I believe it should be 10 cards higher.. not a major thing though.

 

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