War #10 - General Discussion

[majofa]

Did the team know about this? If not, maybe a punishment just for serpex would be more fitting?

The guy's already leaving the forums... what more do you want? Sheesh.

This has nothing to do with that.... Team Light is losing a valuable member and getting a 20 card penalty.

[ARTHANASIOS]

fwiw, it might help clear stuff.

[2016-09-27 13:25:52] Physsion: The penalty was NOT given because serprex lives with his girlfriend, and they decided to spend some time together working on something. This isn't something we can stop, but direct collaboration with explicit vault access is something mathman and I decided that we weren't okay with

I don't know if this change things, but kae just had viewing permission for our vault and not an editing one.

[Higurashi]

It looks like serp would leave whether there was a card penalty or not. As he said, if he can't share his hobby with his gf, he wouldn't enjoy it.

The current rules are as they are for a reason. Outside vault access understandably makes WM's very uncomfortable, and a penalty makes sense in several ways. It's a big breach of the current rules to give access to an outside competent player, and it easily classifies as a very disruptive action. The team has always been punished for team member mistakes because it's the team as a whole that stands to gain or lose from disruptive actions. It works as a unit.

WM's could decide not to punish for cards, but then how do you punish? If you don't punish, what's the point of having the rules? Who would respect them? It's not an easy choice to make, and both choices have merit.

Would we be complaining as much if serp took the penalty without leaving? Probably not. I think the true mistake here is serp's for leaving over something that may be subject to change, but currently is as it is for a good reason.

[Aves]

We would absolutely be complaining just as much if serp took the penalty without leaving, because it was implied clearly that serp wouldn't have been allowed to pvp in the way the he has always done it-- namely, sharing his fun and participation with his gf. Our discussion over the semantics of whether player referred to a person or to an account entity made clear that, with your ruling of player = person, his way of participating in our community was not allowed.

Not all rule-breaking must be punished. That's a case of Maslow's Hammer. Just because you have the option to punish, does not mean you are obligated to do so or that it is the right choice. If the issue that the rule is trying to address can be solved without punishment, then it should be addressed without punishment.

[majofa]

Not sharing the vault info with someone outside the team isn't as much a War rule, but a protection for the team. If I found out someone was sharing my team's vault outside the team, I wouldn't expect a penalty but a removal of that person from my team and a change in permissions in the vault.

If Team Light is being punished for 'having an extra person'... even if the person isn't on the forums at all... then mayyybbeee a penalty, but even then, why? It's not like a skilled member of the community chose not to apply for War and then helped a team.

[Aves]

What majofa said. Exactly what I was trying to get at with this, just explained more clearly and succinctly. Even if it is listed in the rules with the wording it has now, I think a majority of the community believes that the spirit of the law is more for team protection than for cheating prevention, though I admit that the latter is a valid interpretation.

And while we're on the topic of disrupting War, I think the outcry over this event is ten times more disruptive than the disruption that would've been caused by simply letting serprex participate in the community (with PvP).

[theelkspeaks]

Due to being in the middle of moving, I missed this occurrence until after it was over.  I feel like the situation of serprex and kae sharing the info should not have been penalized and should have been allowed under the current rules.  Looking at the rule, it seems like a pretty reasonable assumption to see that the object of the rule is to prevent two teams from sharing information with each other for mutual advantage, or situations like that.  When a player outside of any team contributes, some advantage might be gained, but I still don't think that it's especially unfair.  When one regularly plays games of any sort with an SO or family member, or even in the same room as, it's pretty normal for some conversation about the games to be exchanged - even if the other person doesn't play the game at all, and it seems unnatural to stifle the conversation altogether unless the two players are actively on different teams from each other.

I wouldn't disagree with removing kae's direct vault access, as vault should probably limited to the official team members, but I have no issue at all with the actual deck helping.

To touch on another issue brought up in this thread, I do think it's fairly clear that tournament deck discussion of all sorts should be actively minimized until after the tournament is over and collaboration should be discouraged.  That's a specific tournament rule, because tournaments are in large part competitive explicitly due to the need to prepare for the tournament.  If a vet wants to help a newbie, discuss your tournament prep AFTER the tournament is over and walk them through your process.  I've done it before and it's definitely helpful.

[worldwideweb3]

#Nopenalty #bringbackserp

[iancudorinmarian]

#Nopenalty #bringbackserp

I agree as well, but I'm afraid it's too late for that

[Tiko]

Out of curiosity I've read back 5 or six pages just to get a rough picture what's this all about. So even today: War = drama?

This reminds me of a little story - it may or may not be relevant: Back at War#3 both me and my brother participated. We were drafted into different teams while living in the same house: even having our computers in the same room! As my work schedule was quite chaotic back then, sometimes he helped me out making deck compilations (no Vault tools then) and furthermore, as we were always familiar with each other's passwords, on one occasion he even posted them for my team - on my request, in our secret section(!) - when I couldn't make it in time before the deadline.

Apart from that there was always the opportunity for us to run through the other team's secret sections while the other was away to gain an upper hand, or we could just simply share it between each other. At the end of the day, it all came down to trust and having fun; but could any other than us tell?
It was a well known fact that we're family, and we also had the same IP going of course. Even after my team dropped out, we kept on discussing strategic decisions when he was preparing for their matchups. Nobody had any objections about any of this and never once we were accused of 'cheating' because of it, or even the thought of penalties for such was unheard of. And the game and the community was still thriving at that time.

So, in general, may I ask what's the point for all this?

[ARTHANASIOS]

Out of curiosity I've read back 5 or six pages just to get a rough picture what's this all about. So even today: War = drama?

This reminds me of a little story - it may or may not be relevant: Back at War#3 both me and my brother participated. We were drafted into different teams while living in the same house: even having our computers in the same room! As my work schedule was quite chaotic back then, sometimes he helped me out making deck compilations (no Vault tools then) and furthermore, as we were always familiar with each other's passwords, on one occasion he even posted them for my team - on my request, in our secret section(!) - when I couldn't make it in time before the deadline.

Apart from that there was always the opportunity for us to run through the other team's secret sections while the other was away to gain an upper hand, or we could just simply share it between each other. At the end of the day, it all came down to trust and having fun; but could any other than us tell?
It was a well known fact that we're family, and we also had the same IP going of course. Even after my team dropped out, we kept on discussing strategic decisions when he was preparing for their matchups. Nobody had any objections about any of this and never once we were accused of 'cheating' because of it, or even the thought of penalties for such was unheard of. And the game and the community was still thriving at that time.

So, in general, may I ask what's the point for all this?

I am going to add to drama, sorry guys; I do not know the War rules back then, but with the current rules this is probably & potentially a Backroom Deal.

[Heman]

Out of curiosity I've read back 5 or six pages just to get a rough picture what's this all about. So even today: War = drama?

So, in general, may I ask what's the point for all this?

Drama. Even we from team had our dose of drama this war...