War #10 - General Discussion

[serprex]

NB that the air domin wasn't entirely built, we were both tinkering with it to quanta balance, fit in creatures, etc

Slept, so posting my opinion:

In a way this is how I've been doing most things for years. We draft Hearthstone decks together, debate going face together, do chess.com tactic puzzles together, design oetg together. We're a computational unit. If this is deemed inappropriate then I'd request I be ejected from Team Light & banned from future wars regardless of whether there's a penalty or not. I'm not going to pick etg over Kae, which not including her would be doing

If you're privately disapproving, please speak up like ddevans (Thanks for your input, btw. Have always enjoyed our level headed disagreement). Currently the only person who's shown clear disapproval besides ddevans is Solaris, who I feel has ulterior motives & an overblown morality

[TheonlyrealBeef]

Well, for the topic of extra members outside the team collaborating, I looked hard but could not explicitly see it forbidden in this wars rules. Perhaps it is considered obvious, regardless: it should be clear that the team hasn't gained a significant advantage from it. Ideally, 5 team members actively working together is plentiful and having more is only a liability and extra effort without sufficient gain meaning no penalty is needed.

We're not living in an ideal world and one could almost argue that outside help usually isn't beneficial unless not all members in the team are pulling their weight. Which from what I've gathered in my experience over the wars is becoming commonplace. Regardless -and next remark will be for all rulings in general- ruling should be consistent, hopefully following either specific rules or general guidelines. If these have not changed then the penalty for a considered infraction should not be changed, either.

[iancudorinmarian]

I've kept thinking about this, and even though at first I also was a bit on the disagreeing side, I have to say that I'm fine with that happening.

Why? Because there's no way any of us could've known without you, serprex, letting us know about it. I appreciate the sincerity and imo there's no need for any action to be taken against that. If ya'll want you can invite 10 friends over to your house to help you building war decks, I couldn't care less.

[mrpaper]

I don't think it is worth a penalty whatsoever either.. that said, it sure is a weird situation and I guess saying nothing about it in the general chat would have been more appropriate to avoid drama.  We are talking about someone totally outside the community so she can't be evaluated at all... but what if the almighty Zeru (for those old enough to remember him) was to come back from the dead and help team entropy without being in war?  Would that still be called ok?  A team of 5 is of course enough to make deck choices... but a great extra 6th could be nice to some while unfair to others.  So I think maybe there needs to be a ruling put in place for later in this war /other wars.  I would suggest something as simple as... asking help or accepting help from community member outside the team is forbidden and can lead to a minor penalty.  Which would mean no problem from having someone at home helping you out as long as it is not someone from the forums as well.

Would this seems fair?

[ddevans96]

Regardless of what's done with this situation, I agree with mrpaper - I definitely think some rulings, including this one regarding outside help, need to be set in stone for future wars.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

Imagine if kae only ever played PvE elements, never joined the forum, and nobody knew who she was, but she was still as skillful. Would it be wrong for serp to include her in his thought processes then?
I do think you need rules to guard against auction avoiding, but it's a case by case basis, and tbh in this case you can't stop people who are in a relationship from sharing their thoughts.

Kae doesn't win anything if light win war.
Kae has no access to other teams vaults or thoughts.
Sure, it's an extra head, but you can't enforce against asking advice, or listening to it, from someone who is physically in the same room, nay, the same house.
If you share an interest with your significant other, you discuss that interest.
Serp is just lucky his significant other is good, my fiancee just calls me a nerd when I ask her about her opinion of brave chrysaora.

[Zawadx]

We should clearly state how much any community member should be able to help another team, be they in war or otherwise. Maybe itr could meet up with Odii and tell him, 'Light uses stall decks. You should counter with a break!' But would that be considered helping Team Gravity? What if he hands Odii the secret plans he'd given Disco to use in war? Discord isn't guaranteed to use them, so should it count?
What if I publicly state aether's strengths and weaknesses, hoping to help the remaining 11 teams and ensure Aether doesn't win. Aether can counter it perhaps, but I'm still offering the other teams an unfair advantage. Should it count?

As for Kae+serp, like serp said they are a unit. You could even argue that both Kae and Serp are using the serprex account on forums (a practice called a Hydra). Since Hydras aren't banned by forum rules, one could involve their significant other, or even their entire town as long as those people don't break forum rules and create their own account.

[ARTHANASIOS]

2.1. SECRET FORUM SECTION
Each team has a hidden subboard visible only to its members, Warmasters and non-participating Administrators. All discussions held here MUST be kept secret. A player caught telling team secrets to anyone outside their own team will face consequences decided on a case-by-case basis, possibly including being permanently banned from all Elements community PvP Events. Please don't publicly talk about anything that goes on in these boards.

I am team myself and I absolutely respect and love and admire Serprex and all his hard work. However, according to the above ruling, I strongly believe that we deserve a punishment as a team and the fact it hasn't had a big impact is irrelevant, as well as the fact that Serprex told us, or that it is his girlfriend, or that the rest of team Light was inactive or whatever etc.

Let's get real. If team was doing exactly the same thing, the whole community would've been in flames and you guys know it (just an example). We must be fair and having a punishment for team is the only fair thing in this case.

[worldwideweb3]

I'm with no penalty for light. We should appreciate honesty rather than penalise it. WMs can't prove serp asked kae without serp saying.

[Aves]

The wording of the rule implies that it's more for the protection of the team than it is for preventing cheating. You could interpret it in a way that is absolutely fine with serp and kae. As Zawa states, if we treat kae and serp as a hydra, then on the forum they only count as one entity, hence one member of the team. Hence, it's not 'outside the team' in a way that significantly affects War. On that last sentence, another word that should be bolded is "publicly" -- clearly, serp isn't going to iancu saying "hey, here's what we're using against entropy this round." That sort of situation is what the rule is trying to prevent, much more so than the situation we're talking about now. Talking about the game in the privacy of your own home is about as private as it gets. Playing EtG shouldn't necessitate cutting off your family and irl friends.

No penalty needed.

[ARTHANASIOS]

I'm with no penalty for light. We should appreciate honesty rather than penalise it. WMs can't prove serp asked kae without serp saying.

Example: Honestly, I killed a person. I admit it. Thus, my years to jail will be reduced. However, will my punishment become zero?

Spoiler for Hidden:

The wording of the rule implies that it's more for the protection of the team than it is for preventing cheating. You could interpret it in a way that is absolutely fine with serp and kae. As Zawa states, if we treat kae and serp as a hydra, then on the forum they only count as one entity, hence one member of the team. Hence, it's not 'outside the team' in a way that significantly affects War. On that last sentence, another word that should be bolded is "publicly" -- clearly, serp isn't going to iancu saying "hey, here's what we're using against entropy this round." That sort of situation is what the rule is trying to prevent, much more so than the situation we're talking about now. Talking about the game in the privacy of your own home is about as private as it gets. Playing EtG shouldn't necessitate cutting off your family and irl friends.

No penalty needed.

I am really surprised that everyone is ok with Hydras. For me, 1 person = 1 account and neither 1 person = X accounts nor X persons = 1 account feels fair for me. Just my 2

[worldwideweb3]

I'm with no penalty for light. We should appreciate honesty rather than penalise it. WMs can't prove serp asked kae without serp saying.

Example: Honestly, I killed a person. I admit it. Thus, my years to jail will be reduced. However, will my punishment become zero?

Killing is a crime. Also, don't you see how much you are exaggerating....