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Offline Shantu

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227217#msg227217
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2010, 09:57:10 am »
Defeated. Sad to see so early..

As I see it, there were a couple of problems that lead to our downfall.
 - Our Vault had too little amount of pendulums and we relied on Death cards too much in the beginning. And as we lost them, deckbuilding became harder and harder. Not having any Death salvages didn't help either.
 - We had a few people who rarely wrote anything on the forum or came on chat.
 - Round 6 obviously crippled us. The generals and lieutenants by themselves shouldn't have caused such a problem - 6 upped cards shouldn't be that big of a difference.. I don't really know what happened. The morale went down afterwards.

Offline xdude

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227717#msg227717
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2010, 11:22:40 pm »
Well, no more War-winning dreams for me. We're out. Here's a list of things which made us lose:

    Bad starting Vault. This one's on me. I couldn't get online and helpA pretty slow start. I suppose it's still on me.Some bad tactical decision in the last round (R8). My bad.Light is great and all, but not so versatile. You can't do much with a mono.Some bad decisions during the Auction too. Some players (I'm not gonna say names) were less active (and thus less useful) than I thought they would.
However, I've learned a lot from this War (more than from the last one) and with the new cards and buffs... We're ready to rock&roll!
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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227738#msg227738
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2010, 11:37:41 pm »
Quote from: xdude
Some bad tactical decision in the last round (R8). My bad.
Honestly, this boils down to the whole metagaming part of war, the importance of which is probably largely underestimated. I honestly think that we just failed in the metagaming department, considering how all three of our r8 decks were countered so well. I also think this point might fit in with :light's lack of versatility, because it weakens the ability to make counter-decks. I honestly feel like it might be an effective strategy to just make some effective decks and randomly assign them to players (barring those that benefit from upped cards of course) as it would destroy any attempts at metagaming.

Quote from: xdude
Some bad decisions during the Auction too. Some players (I'm not gonna say names) were less active (and thus less useful) than I thought they would.
Part of that is probably me, and I do apologize for being less active than I thought I'd be able to. Honestly, I kind of randomly lost interest in Elements around the time war started. I've gained a bit more interest recently. So a disproportionally large amount of our loss should be blamed on me.

Bad starting vault, is a bit strange... with the whole conversion mechanism, it was difficult to predict exactly how much of what we should have taken. War 3 is probably going to be a lot more similar to war 2 than war 2 is to war 1, so who knows what'll happen then.

I feel like we did well in regards to :light not being versatile. Decks took advantage of the best parts of :light, and ignored those that are subpar.

Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227780#msg227780
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2010, 12:20:33 am »
Bad starting Vault. This one's on me. I couldn't get online and help
That was more everyone who was online's fault. I was here for that, but too lazy to go count pillars. Seriously, we struggled through the first round due to lack of pillars. It was certainly more our fault for not counting up our pillars (or possibly failing at it), than it was yours for not being able to be here.

Some bad decisions during the Auction too. Some players (I'm not gonna say names) were less active (and thus less useful) than I thought they would.
I'm probably included in those names you didn't say. I was really active when this started, but slowly lost interest due to the fact that I didn't actually have an official duty to perform. (Well, that is, no duel organizing to do...) I helped out a lot at the beginning, but when I saw that it seemed I was superfluous to the operation, I started to skip our chat parties. It seemed that the most that I did at the parties was hand out rares with PvP farms. As much as I like math, I didn't want to look at numbers for salvaging/discarding in some rounds, so I didn't. Selfish and Lazy, that's what I am. Sorry team. Sorry fans*. Sorry other peoples.

"Laziness is not a virtue." -Salamence_747

Y'know what. That quote is going in my sig.

*Yeah, right. I don't have fans.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227801#msg227801
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2010, 12:49:32 am »
"Laziness is not a virtue." -Salamence_747
I heard about 2 kinds of laziness*. One is a virtue, the other is not.

The first one can be described as "I don't want to do it. I'll automate it or find some other brilliant solution how to make it done without spending time actually doing it"

The other can be described as "I don't want to do it... seems it won't be done at all, then."



And it seems that I'm super lazy, since both fit me at Times :P
Although, it seems when I'm struck by the first kind of laziness, I'm doing things like learning concise scripting languages, learning techniques of reading fast and memorizing, and doing other daemonic stuff.
When I'm struck by the second one... I'm browsing Elements Forums and playing wars...
Right... and I'm still doing quite a lot of work for my team, so it seems if only I was able to devote some of my first-laziness to Elements, we'd be OP like :entropy is right now. (j/k with the OP)



*The credit for the virtue-laziness goes to one of my professors, who says that Programmers should be lazy.
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Offline ak65ala

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227923#msg227923
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2010, 03:32:47 am »
Honestly, this boils down to the whole metagaming part of war, the importance of which is probably largely underestimated. I honestly think that we just failed in the metagaming department, considering how all three of our r8 decks were countered so well. I also think this point might fit in with :light's lack of versatility, because it weakens the ability to make counter-decks. I honestly feel like it might be an effective strategy to just make some effective decks and randomly assign them to players (barring those that benefit from upped cards of course) as it would destroy any attempts at metagaming.
This is sort of what team Underworld did in our opening round.  We had some strategy to assigning decks, looking at vaults, etc... but for the most part, we built 8 good decks and put them into the hands of our players and said "go!".  We went 3-5.  Many of our loses were close (very, at times), but so were our victories.

Offline TimerClock14

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227950#msg227950
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2010, 04:07:15 am »
.....this sucks. 'nuff said.
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Offline Glitch

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227951#msg227951
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2010, 04:08:39 am »
First I murdered nilsieboy, striking the final blow against him in waters last round.
Next I finished Terroking.
Both were friends.

War.  Is.  Hell.

Offline TimerClock14

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227966#msg227966
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2010, 04:23:33 am »
ok, time to start coping with the worst weekend of my life. *ditches tub of rocky road ice cream* This works better. *grabs 4 bottles of hard vodka*
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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg227983#msg227983
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2010, 04:46:09 am »
Let's see, for team :earth what went wrong.

The first thing that comes to mind is our initial vault.  We had two options to start our vault with, 64 pillars or 90 (this is on top of the 22 pendulums), we went with 64.  It was basically just two of us talking about it (dema and myself) and it probably ended up being the biggest factor for us.  We actually needed to convert just to make the initial set of 9 decks for the first round to give you an idea of how tight it was.  Now consider that team earth fielded some stall decks which were as big as 40 cards and mostly pillars.  That took some effort.  A lot of deckbuilding consisted of telling people they had to take their deck and make it work with 2 less pillars or something like that. 

So yeah, our initial pillar load required a very high winning ratio to be viable which we simply didn't deliver.

That became a constant thorn in our side, making us cut corners on decks as well as salvage/discards.  Converting max every round just held us even in the same predicament we started in.  It also affected deck choices sometimes, as we simply couldn't field too many of the big stalls.  In round 3? or maybe 4, we had to discard some creatures we needed to keep in order to keep the pillars viable.  That lead to a shortage in creatures we had to fix in later rounds through salvaging (like our gravity deck was built out of salvaged chargers specifically to fix that problem that round - no pillars for stalls, no creatures for damage, that deck was the best we could put together purely out of salvage, it was that or something with no damage output at all).

I believe it was round 4, we cut corners on a bunch of decks trying not to suicide, and lost far too many of them.  That crushed our vault leading to the multi-suicides in the next round.  That once again was a pillar limitation, there was no way we could field 9 viable decks with the pillars we had remaining after the previous huge losses.  In round 5 we could either cut corners again, or condense into properly supported decks and take the giant hit.  After failing so badly cutting corners and trying to stretch decks in round 4, we condensed in round 5.  That was made worse by not being able to field stall decks and having to discard them when we landed with 272 cards and having to field 270 of them in the 9 decks.

The only other thing really was some general activity issues.  The members were all great - it was a good collection of players - but I found it hard to get people to test decks (there were some standouts like timer who were always involved with their deck testing).  Testing was further complicated by a few of our members not having all the rares or upped cards to build the decks we needed to test against too - that exacerbated the activity/testing issues a bit.  In the best rounds maybe half the decks would ever get tested, in the worst rounds, maybe 1 or 2 would.  That made a difference too.  You can kinda see activity levels from the posting in the earth section even though we had a separate chat.  Timer was a lot more active than it looks from posts, but the rest is fairly accurate proportion wise.

Anyway, that's about it from my perspective.  Good luck to those that remain in war.

Offline Legit

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg228001#msg228001
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2010, 05:15:46 am »
Sky made a lot of good points in his post, so I'll just add a few things.

I agree with Sky that our initial vault was a huge factor in our elimination. The amount of pillars we took really affected us in later rounds (We had to suicide 4 times in Round 5). To be honest, I didn't quite understand exactly how war worked at that point, so I didn't know anything about how we should have made the vault. Terro was also gone during part of that time, and we lacked his experience in war.

Also, we did not have much teamwork, which appears to be a main factor in war (Just look at how far teamwork got Entropy). Activity was part of the issue, but there was also a lack of organization in early rounds.

Offline asymmetry

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg228013#msg228013
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2010, 05:52:33 am »
Well, bitter end for us. Light will shine brighter in the next War
Our vault was not the greatest of all, and adding it got severely damaged, well. We did what we could from that moment.
I learned a lot from Elements and :light with our team.  I enjoyed the few chat debates i could assist to deckbuild and stuff. It turns my stomach that college screwed (me and my time) up, so despite considering my strategy role quite decently developed, err. I could've done better.

    Some bad decisions during the Auction too. Some players (I'm not gonna say names) were less active (and thus less useful) than I thought they would.
 ^so that's me, too. Falcon punch!

Rasta, sux and Wizardcat helped a lot :) we wouldn't have made it so far without them.
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'cause I see colors flourishing like you'd never believe... like a pendulum swings, they swing with me!

 

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