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Offline XYTWO

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg228029#msg228029
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2010, 06:48:31 am »
I'd like to say Light barely missed 1.26. Next war Light's gonna have a better arsenal to unleash doom with, since they'll have Crusaders and the Solar Shield buff. There's always next time to shine.

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg228262#msg228262
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2010, 02:36:48 pm »
Experience is really important in this war. Knowing each card's mechanics in and out is only essential, but IMO metagame, PVP skills and predicting opponent's deck are more important. As a deckbuilder, I'm lacking the later three skills (if not all); so I felt that the downfall is also partly my fault.

Though we never waste much time in proof-reading our decks, salvage, discard and all that stuff; we are lacking input on deciding a deck is good or otherwise. At least I felt that way since by Round 2 or 3 I realized that my deck-building skill sux :P, thus I rely more on the team's input.

All in all, I don't have much regrets and thanks to everyone for the great experience. Hope to see you in the next war. ;)

$$$man

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg228305#msg228305
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2010, 03:28:51 pm »
Sky pretty much summed up our situation. I especially like how he did not mention names in the "activity issue". Maybe to save reputation but I don't know, All I know is I deserve the blunt end of this activity problem. I thought I would be able to post and help MUCH more then I actually was able to. As for the posts = activity, that is not so true for me, as when I was active most of the rest of us were not (I couldn't really make it, except for remote, awkward times). I really apologize to my team for failures.

If I only learned one thing from this war it would definitely be:
Discord = Win. :P

Offline Boingo

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg228563#msg228563
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2010, 08:14:34 pm »
Sky pretty much summed up our situation. I especially like how he did not mention names in the "activity issue". Maybe to save reputation but I don't know, All I know is I deserve the blunt end of this activity problem. I thought I would be able to post and help MUCH more then I actually was able to. As for the posts = activity, that is not so true for me, as when I was active most of the rest of us were not (I couldn't really make it, except for remote, awkward times). I really apologize to my team for failures.

If I only learned one thing from this war it would definitely be:
Discord = Win. :P
I think this ought to be tempered in some manner.  Sad to think 1 card determines so many matches.   I posted a suggestion in the War 3 thread regarding Discord specifically.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16468.msg226009#msg226009
Bring back Holy Cow!

Offline Zeru

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg229471#msg229471
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2010, 08:38:01 pm »
Discord = Win. :P
Sure take 24 of them next time. It will be fun salvaging them.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg229495#msg229495
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2010, 08:54:56 pm »
Discord = Win. :P
Sure take 24 of them next time. It will be fun salvaging them.
I completely agree with you Zeru. It will be fun salvaging them :]
Since he'd have to join team entropy to take 24 discords. Otherwise he can only take 12. So, you're basically saying that it will be fun salvaging those discords from your team xD
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
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Offline Zeru

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg229509#msg229509
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2010, 09:04:47 pm »
Xinef, 12 starting vault + 12 propaganda bonus. Non-Entropy team can take up to 36 discords. Good luck in the war if you think we won thanks that that single card.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg229527#msg229527
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2010, 09:19:40 pm »
Oh, if we count it like that, every team can take up to 324 discords. You simply have to take 24 (or 32 if you are team Entropy), then salvage 24 from each other team (32 from team Entropy), and voila you have 324 discords in your vault.

If I recall correctly, in war #3 propaganda bonus will be given before round 1 starts, so you might consider it to be a part of vaultbuilding... but at least in war #2 it was a bonus.

Oh wait, you can take even more discords due to 24 and 18 propaganda bonuses for best propaganda topics.



Now, back on topic. IMHO Discords are not as OP in war as some people say (eg. Discord = win), I've seen discord decks losing... but it's true that they are one of the best weapons against duo decks, and very hard to counter if you have to expect them not only from team :entropy, but also from every other team. It's quite impossible to pack novas/deflags/immolations/>9000pillars into every deck you make.

So, I might support the case to limit somehow it's usage, but only if it's reasonably done and well thought out. Right now a lot of people are connecting the great performance of team Entropy with the usage of discords, which might make it hard to judge the whole thing in an unbiased way. We'd have to analyze how Discords were used by other teams and stuff like that. Not every element can make a good deck by simply taking 3 discords and an entropy mark or some novas.
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
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Offline Zeru

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg229560#msg229560
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2010, 10:06:56 pm »
In War #1 Fire, Entropy and Earth did well without Discords (we lost almost all of them in round 1). And Zanz promised some kind of anti-denial card.
Quote
and very hard to counter if you have to expect them not only from team :entropy, but also from every other team.
Quote
Not every element can make a good deck by simply taking 3 discords and an entropy mark or some novas.
If they can't make a good deck, there is nothing to be afraid off, right?

Another thing is: blocking discord won't change a thing. We can simply pick more other useful cards instead.

A quick summarize on strategy. You have 4 main strategies of Elements. Rush, Control, Denial, Stall. Every team should have all of these. However, not every element can do all of these alone, so we borrow cards from another.  Look how often Graboids were used. Wings, Poison. All of these are candidates to be the main strategy of a team.
Don't say Propaganda is a bonus. You knew you would get 12 cards in round 2. It was a part of plan like any other card. Place 1 and 2 were bonuses.
A non :death team can for example take 24 poison to their starting vault. Who will expect that? Poison is a great card in control/stall decks. Just like graboid is great in rushes.
Let's look at Denial more closely now. The core of the deck is to stop your enemy from using his strategy. Now let's look at possible denial cards:
- earthquake - great card, early quake hits a player so hard, that he can basically quit to menu. Look at War 1. Near the end almost all decks used either quake or immolation to counter quake. Luckily, pendulums and now Soul Catcher nerfed that card indirectly. Teams can use alternative source of quanta and make this card useless.
- pest - the weakest denial card. Absorbing 1 quanta per turn barely slows down your opponent. Also the generated :darkness implied that you should devote your deck into a darkness duo. That is not a good plan. Fractal greatly increases it's potential, but now you are devoting yourself to both :darkness and :aether. Devourer is a strategy only for the few. Entropy took some devourers, but even we, with Lycanthopes considered this as one of our weakest decks.
- black hole - not very good in duo environment. It gets powerful combined with discords, but again, it's a strategy for only a few teams. If there is any reason to take it, it's to defend yourself from :underworld. And even that is questionable, since they will expect it.
By elimination, any team that wants to have denial should take discord, as it's cheap and useful, and you don't need to devote much of your deck to benefit from it.


If you want to bad discord, why not ban firebolt? Or Poison. Or quintessence. Or any other card that can be considered "key". I don't understand the difference between limiting Denial and limiting Rush.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg229595#msg229595
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2010, 10:44:29 pm »
Don't say Propaganda is a bonus.
Depends on your definition of bonus. I call it a bonus since it wasn't a part of your original vault. It seems you don't call it a bonus since it was almost certain everyone would get it.
For example, if every team were to get 24 cards for free during the 6th round, would you call it a bonus or not? I'd call it a bonus, since you couldn't use it in the previous rounds and it certainly wasn't in your starting vault.
Thus if I read "take 24 discords" I interpret it as "place 24 discords in your starting vault". If your interpretation was different than I'm sorry... but I'll still have fun salvaging your decks :P



As for your defense of Discords... I've mostly seen people suggesting to limit it's use, not to ban it entirely, so don't accuse people of trying to ban it.
And as far as your reasoning goes... I want SoGs to be unbanned, since
Quote
By elimination, any team that wants to have healing should take SoG, as it's cheap and useful, and you don't need to devote much of your deck to benefit from it.
Ok, my response might be invalid due to war being mostly unupped, but you see... SoG is banned for some reasons, even though some of the teams would benefit from it more than others... and Discord might be limited for similar reasons. Since it seems that Discords are less troublesome than SoGs, there is no need to ban them entirely, but at least some limit might be necessary if it is proven that Discord based denial decks are indeed unbalanced. If it is proven wrong (comparison of war #1 and war #2 might help), you might be right.

<sarcasm> I want my SoGs back ;( </sarcasm>
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
:time samurai

Offline Zeru

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg229638#msg229638
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2010, 11:33:27 pm »
Since I am writing so much today and this might be the final round, I might as well write on-topic. I will not say, what went wrong, I will say what went well. From the very beginning.

War auction:
     This is a new rule which I was opposed from the very beginning and will probably dislike it to the very end of it's existence. I could not chose freely, who I could work with, unless I put my team at a huge disadvantage from the very start. I found it frustrating and hard, but I wanted to win the war, so I started building my team. I knew that spending over 50 cards would be very bad, my plan was spend less than 40. I needed great players, who did not yet reach high enough fame in the community.
     First obvious method was to join weekly tournaments and play as best as possible. I was hoping to find cultural, skilled and intelligent person, who would be superior to me in terms of deckbuilding. I had great luck to find a person who met my high standards. The tournament rules did not correlate with my play-style at all. I build a pathetic deck thinking that everybody had similar problems. However, my opponent did not have any problems at all. When I used some sort of scrap deck, he played an elegant life-rush and outclassed me as terribly as it was possible. That is how I met Sir Valimont. Back then I had little idea just how crucial he would be for my team. I was merely satisfied at finding a great player, who would not cost a fortune on the auction. He accepted my invitation and my active search has ended.
     The next step was to test my options. I wrote an open invitation to everybody in my signature. More than 7 players replied. I could not be happier. That meant I could have a motivated team by simply accepting most of the applications. With optimism I awaited the beginning of the auction.
     The auction started. I gave the players a lot of time to finish their applications. I wanted to see as many options as possible before wasting my precious cards.
I was the last person to start bidding. The first place to look was the palace. For of the people there I had only 2 rivals. That meant lower competition. It was also a sign of confidence and will to join my team. What a let-down. Only 3 players wanted to join my team. The fist person was Amilir. This was an obvious choice. He was my only rival at the Trials. I had an advantage over him, and yet he managed to get the duel down to 4-4 leaving me with 3 hp in the final round. Only a ridiculous fog block separated us from being in the opposite places. However, the most important reason was something else. He used Entropy in a totally different way than me. When we played, we used totally different decks and all of his creations were extremely well made. I knew that he was a key player and strategist from the very start. Next person was Glitch. I was not naive. His declaration to follow Entropy was nothing more than a must. I knew that he would not enjoy my team and he preferred Life instead. So I did not even look at his page. Next person was Kurohami. Oddly similar to Glitch with his preferences. This time, I did not see a reason not to bid on him. Next I saw xKelevra. I can't really say much here. He had a full library, and nobody seemed to be interested in him. That was a chance I could not ignore. Lastly, the slaves. My priority was to bid on the players, who were interested in my team. The bidding was very nervous as you would not know, what other Generals were thinking. In the end I ended up with my team. Two players sadly were excluded as I won 9 players. ScaredGirl made another rule. We were to find a Rookie. After seeing the requirements I could not believe my eyes. Where was I supposed to find users with such low stats? What's worse. How was I supposed to know that they were motivated to fight with me for months in the hardest pvp event, when they barely started the game?
"Oh dear, another lottery". Being completely clueless about this situation, I decided to ignore the problem. I sent a mass pm to my 8-man team (or 17-man if you count 10-men differently ;) ) and started organizing our ways of communication. In the process, I randomly entered chat. Jmdt asked if I needed a Rookie, and met me with Nyma. It appeared that Kevkev did not want her, so she was looking for a different team. Having no better options, I agreed to talk with her. That was non-mistakenly the best decision in the entire war. Never, ever.. even in the most optimistic scenario I would assume that I could find such a talent. I knew I found something rare, but in my limited view I could not estimate just how important would she be for the team. Later on it would be discovered that we would be one of the most active, creative, intelligent, cheerful, and interesting person in the team. And thus.. Team Entropy was created.
     

Offline Dragoon1140

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Re: Voices of the Fallen - eliminated teams discuss what went wrong https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=17190.msg229648#msg229648
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2010, 11:40:55 pm »
First obvious method was to join weekly tournaments and play as best as possible.
Now that you mention it, I do remember me and a few others in chat joking about how you just picked players that did good at a single tournament.

Thanks for making me remember that.  :)
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