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Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189017#msg189017
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2010, 12:44:36 am »
I did not threaten to quit. I did not tell anyone to follow my lead.
These are completely moot points. The fact that you posted your decision could only possibly lead to others following suit. Actions often speak louder than words.

You did incite a rebellion. Not you alone but you were a major responsible party. Whether that was your intention is a separate issue; the point is that many people followed your example and decided to ignore one of the rules of the game.

I don't mean to accuse you of acting out of anything besides good conscience. I just think you could have used better judgement and realized that this situation was better left unchallenged in the public and aggressive way that you did. Now the result is no event cards at all. A much better result could have been reached.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189018#msg189018
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2010, 12:46:47 am »
Again, you could ignore what you want, that is your decision. However, organizing a boycott is not acceptable at all. By definition! A boycott can only happen if it's illegal!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott#Legality


As for the 'rebellion' as you call it, the number of people dissatisfied with the event cards, and the organizers decision to remove them, only prove that the problem was big and was worth solving. The question if the solution was good remains, but it seems a lot of people are satisfied with the solution, even if a better one could be designed for war #3, but at least it solved the immediate problem. I guess it would be much worse to keep everyone playing in an event that many felt was unfair. Forcing all players to play without 'the extra event modifier' is of course a problem of it's own, but it's not as serious as a lot of people dissatisfied with fairness.
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miniwally

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189020#msg189020
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2010, 12:47:36 am »
I'm the glad the veil and order cards were removed as they were biased towards one (or more) particular teams but all the rest seemed fine.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189022#msg189022
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2010, 12:51:16 am »
Again, you could ignore what you want, that is your decision. However, organizing a boycott is not acceptable at all. By definition! A boycott can only happen if it's illegal!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott#Legality
Lol. Touché. :)

I guess the point still stands that it's against the spirit of the game to ignore a rule. It's only technically legal because the event card made the choice optional ... it could very easily have required all Light cards to be upped or something. I'm pretty sure people would have reacted the same way (and then they'd be breaking the rules).

Istari.

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189028#msg189028
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2010, 12:55:19 am »
Except that would have been much, much worse. By requiring them to be up'd one, you effect strategy, there are multiple cards in various elements that people prefer to leave un-up'd, second it would be really really unfair to people who would need to grind for those upgrades.

Offline Essence

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189031#msg189031
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2010, 12:58:32 am »
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But that doesn't mean that you have the right to ignore rules just because you don't like them. When you sign up to play a game, you sign up to follow the rules. There was never any guarantee that event cards would be perfectly balanced. If you feel like that card was so incredibly unbalanced that you don't want to play anymore, then that's your choice, but disrupting the game for everyone else is not a choice that you have and in doing so you are breaking the agreement you made to follow the rules of the game.
It's literally impossible for one person to disrupt the game.  If no one else had cared, there would have been no change in the rules.  MrBlonde simply happens to be the FIRST person to say something about it, but the fact that dozens of people backed him up indicates that the "boycott" wasn't so much organized as it was a natural extension of the community's collective desire to play a balanced game. 

I can tell you that if no one else had said anything before I got online today (busy watching the Rally to Restore Sanity), I would have raised everliving hell about the Age card.  It has nothing to do with anyone else's opinion -- it's the fact that, as a gamer, I want to play a game that doesn't arbitrarily give some people a game-swinging advantage over others.  MrBlonde isn't guilty of anything except pointing out the patently obvious, and having a bunch of other people be like "Hey, yeah, no doubt, dude."
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189032#msg189032
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2010, 12:59:25 am »
I don't mean to accuse you of acting out of anything besides good conscience. I just think you could have used better judgement and realized that this situation was better left unchallenged in the public and aggressive way that you did. Now the result is no event cards at all. A much better result could have been reached.
I already addressed those points in earlier posts.

I honestly don't think anyone would have a problem with event cards being put back into War at all. There was a lot of work put into making them and i am genuinely sorry that they all have been taken out. These cards CAN be put back in and i believe the community wouldn't have a problem with it (barring the order cards and the veil cards).

It just comes down to if people can put aside their feelings. In the end if the order cards were left in the game it would IMO have caused a lot of drama.

QuantumT

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189033#msg189033
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2010, 12:59:25 am »
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1) It is not your place to decide that a rule decided upon by the organizers is "unacceptable."
Why not? We're part of the community too. Doesn't our opinion matter?
Yes of course it matters! A lot actually because this is a fairly new game that's still undergoing major development!

But that doesn't mean that you have the right to ignore rules just because you don't like them. When you sign up to play a game, you sign up to follow the rules. There was never any guarantee that event cards would be perfectly balanced. If you feel like that card was so incredibly unbalanced that you don't want to play anymore, then that's your choice, but disrupting the game for everyone else is not a choice that you have and in doing so you are breaking the agreement you made to follow the rules of the game.
Nobody ever said they wouldn't play. We were just agreeing that we would ignore the unbalanced event cards.


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2) You have no recourse that is "within the rules." What you incited was quite outside of the rules. In normal circumstances you would be banned from the event. Understandably so.
Deciding as a group to ignore the event cards is perfectly well within the rules. Show me where in the rules it says that it isn't.
There is no law in America that says I can't eat my neighbor's car. But if I did eat my neighbor's car I would be arrested.
Actually, that would be theft and there are laws against that.

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Some rules are understood. There is no rule against you deciding not to take an advantage. If you wanted to build a deck with no upped cards, that's totally fine. However, when you start organizing a boycott that involves a single other player, or when you advertise that you are not going to use upped cards as an attempt to convince others to do so, you are breaking the rules. Specifically you are breaking the obvious (even if not written) rule that event cards are meant to have an effect on the game. Think about it this way: If you tried to convince every Elements player not to use Otyughs, you would be breaking the rules. Maybe it's a "rule of conduct" but it's a rule nonetheless, and it's a good enough reason to kick you out of the community in most cases.
I would not be breaking the rules if I told everyone not to use Otyughs if I thought they were unbalanced. It's just that everyone would laugh at me then ignore me.

Also, you aren't allowed to make up rules then say that people have to follow them. We didn't want the unbalanced event cards, so we were agreeing not to use them.

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3) Your feeling that the event is somehow "unfair" is actually less important than continuing to act in an appropriate fashion. Stirring up "rebellion" of any kind is not the latter at all in any context.
Our decision to ignore the event cards is acceptable, so this point is irrelevant.
Again, you could ignore what you want, that is your decision. However, organizing a boycott is not acceptable at all. By definition! A boycott can only happen if it's illegal!
Xinef covered this one.

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4) This has nothing to do with civil rights and there is no righteousness on your side. Only self-importance and disrespect for the organizers. You are not a member of an oppressed mass; you are a gamer who is given the privilege of many hours of someone else's time to be here in this event. Rather than oppressing you, the organizers here actively engage the community for its input -- not because they have to but because they want to give as much to the community as they can. You are not fighting for something "greater." You are not Gandhi, you are not Rosa Parks. You are a kid playing an internet game. And all you are doing is screwing up a community event.
The only difference is a vast one in scale. And if the community thinks that the event card screws up the community event, doesn't that matter?

Let me give you an example of a another event card that would be unfair if it were instituted and would receive an even bigger backlash.

Will of the Gods- This round the victor of all matches is determined by a coin flip.
There is a major difference that has nothing to do with scale. The concerns of the civil rights movement have to do with human rights, decency and fairness. The concerns of whether or not an event card is balanced in Elements War has nothing to do with human rights, decency or fairness. It is not "unfair" for a card to be unbalanced. It is within the rules of the game. Something "unfair" would be outside of the rules of the game, like that the winner of a battle has to pay SG $10 or something.
It is unfair for a card to be unbalanced, at least to this extent.

fair- free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice:

They seem pretty dang biased to me.

Offline Essence

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189036#msg189036
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2010, 01:02:02 am »
I agree with MrBlonde completely.  I would love to see the non-Age and non-Veil cards put back.
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

QuantumT

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189037#msg189037
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2010, 01:04:40 am »
How would people feel about the Age cards if they were tweaked a bit? Something along the lines of "Everyone can use 3 upped light cards."

This still has a similar feel to the original Age cards, without being gamebreakingly unbalanced. Here people could use it if they wanted, but the disadvantage for not using it is minor.

Edit: As long as we're listing the cards that give an advantage to specific teams over others, Burst of Color is pretty dang biased towards team underworld.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189040#msg189040
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2010, 01:09:09 am »
MrBlonde simply happens to be the FIRST person to say something about it, but the fact that dozens of people backed him up indicates that the "boycott" wasn't so much organized as it was a natural extension of the community's collective desire to play a balanced game.
While I have no doubt that others had problems with it, your view expressed above is overly simplistic.

MrBlonde absolutely was not the first person to "say something about it" -- he was a team leader who upped the stakes drastically by committing 9 people to a boycott. There is a huge difference. MrBlonde by his own admission acted out of what he thought was best, on his own volition.

The "collective desire" of the community should have materialized in a discussion rather than brash actions. That is the crux of every post I've made on the issue.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg189041#msg189041
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2010, 01:11:10 am »
I guess the best thing we could do now is to either design ~24 event card ideas that are not biased, or (if we want to keep event cards secret) at least organize a group of people who would design them. If I'm right, these event cards were designed by only Scaredgirl and the warmasters... I guess a bigger group would be necessary to spot and discuss fairness and balance.

Though, I guess it would be simpler to drop the secrecy, as it seems to be one of the problems. If these event card ideas were known publicly earlier, the discussions would probably be much less emotional and more on topic.
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