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QuantumT

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193037#msg193037
« Reply #204 on: November 04, 2010, 04:53:33 am »
Very well said.

kobisjeruk

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193038#msg193038
« Reply #205 on: November 04, 2010, 04:54:32 am »
frankly i dont know where this threat to quitting the game or war or whatever even came from
it might've been said somewhere in jest...that i also dont know about but people keep bringing it up, making it the highlight of the whole thing
the only thing that i'm sure of is :-

a) some people ask/demand that Ages series be removed from war or nerf (including yours truly)

b) some other people decide to refrain from using the optional effect and suggested others to follow suit (hence starting the whole boycott thing)

there was no threat whatsoever about quitting or leaving the war/game
(unless some people got a hold of secret messages between participants threatening to do such thing)
please refrain from saying the community threatened to quit/leave because of this issue
even if nothings changed, we will still be here playing it...i have no doubt about that

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193044#msg193044
« Reply #206 on: November 04, 2010, 05:20:22 am »
Daxx, I do indeed think many of your points are valid and your post is intelligent and well reasoned, however I believe the crux of the entire issue stems from this misconception that many members of the community have:

...the tournament organiser broke the social contract first by deviating from expectations about how the event was going to be run.
It is highly delusional to think that the organizer(s) of this free event deviated from any reasonable expectations. Whether that is because the expectations players had were themselves delusional, or whether it's because players thinking that when their expectations aren't met that gives them moral authority to "act like dicks," is somewhat moot.

We exist here in a community of many with a rather unrealistic perception of what their roles in fact are. A community like this runs best when people feel engaged, like they can participate and like that they are contributing to the overall creative work that is the forum and the game community. And that's not negligible; in fact it's a measurable asset. If Zanzarino were to sell his software tomorrow, the fact that it is attached to an active community would garner more money in the sale. Nonetheless. The large amount of "titles" given to folks around here are more about community building than they are about serious responsibility when it comes to maintaining the website. Understanding exactly what it means to "run" something is really pretty nuanced and few people grasp it under age 30, and often not then except with experience. ScaredGirl is a person who de facto runs this site; she has actual tangible responsibility which comes directly from the fact that she built it with her two hands. Beyond her, everyone else is really just a community organizer of some degree or another. People do make contributions as is always the case in an open community and some of those contributions may become permanent parts of the ouevre, but it does not take more than about ten sober seconds to realize that this is ScaredGirl's ouevre. Perhaps it will morph into the ouevre of 2 or 3 people depending on how much creative authority ScaredGirl cedes to those people. But that is her choice and it's pretty obvious that it has not yet happened to any great extent for the over-arching structures of this site.

Here there are community contributions and there are many useful roles played by volunteers; but they and no one else is in an actual managerial role with actual responsibility to maintain the website. That is just the way free websites work. That realization may be helpful to many who feel entitled to levy their influence on content design -- because: since they are without responsibility for design they have no real authority. It is this basic principle that explains why the expectations you refer to in your quote above are off-base. No person here who came to this website by discovering and playing Elements on the internet and then deciding to volunteer to help the community should delude himself into thinking that he is now entitled to redesign it. These people are free volunteers; they are not programmers sitting in an office hired by Zanzarino; they are not associates of ScaredGirl. They have no actual responsibility over website content and there is no actual authority.

I think it is a mischaracterization of statements that I or SG may have made to think that we're painting this as an ethical dilemma; I don't find it useful to argue that participants are ethically bound to much of anything in free online gaming forums -- that's the nature of the medium, as you correctly pointed out. More accurately, I think we see it as a basic matter of maturity. You don't like something, so you throw a temper tantrum: that's the simplified version of what happened. It did not happen unilaterally across the community, but rather was pushed forward by the typical immature intellectual force that is 16-to-24-year-old gaming males who like to invoke concepts they learned in government class when they paint themselves "activists" in what ultimately amounts to whining and pouting. This is not descriptive of everyone, surely not, and these movements happen by way of unspoken group consensus more than bad intentions on any one person's part.

So in many ways I actually agree with you entirely that there's no real validity in saying people acted unethically and should be lambasted as such. But by the same measure all of the posturing and theory spouted by some members of this community belie an utterly inexperienced view of the way the world basically works, and I can only describe it as "silly." Pages of arguments about what "rights" an unpaying, could-be-anyone internet user should have with regard to a product designer are arguments that simply have no context in "real life." I build products for a living; and even my paying customers, including those who pay a subscription fee and receive content from me regularly that they may not always like, have no right whatsoever to dictate their opinions to me let alone control my creative endeavors. I don't need to have arguments about a video game to understand these facts: they are simply how the world works, as any single person who designs products like me professionally already knows. When it comes to customers, the reality is, if they don't like it, they can stop paying and go elsewhere. The payment they are making is voluntary and based on their own expectations. As long as I am not broadcasting expectations to the contrary -- like that I say I sell apples when I sell oranges -- they have no legal or ethical right to be upset if they don't like what they get. Here we're in an even more extreme situation where the only thing that members have invested is their recreational time and not their money, so it's even more ludicrous to think that people here should have rights over something the organizers design. And ScaredGirl never told the community that Event Cards were not going to favor one element over another; and it is implicit in any video game like this one that luck is a factor. It is outrageous to claim that ScaredGirl acted irresponsibly therefore: Both because she is not bound to any set of expectations anyway and because she didn't misrepresent any aspect of what she was doing.

It's not a "nuance" but two completely different things that are not hard to understand when one says a person has no right to creative control or on the other hand that his opinion doesn't matter. Those are not the same things and no one has ever said or ever believed that someone's opinion here doesn't matter. Not being in charge and not mattering are different.

For example, of course I care immensely what my clients want and how they feel about what I sell them -- so it's an important aspect of my business to make myself open to that feedback. But I'm not somehow beholden to them because of it. Exactly the same is true for ScaredGirl -- she is not bound to screen her design past anyone. But she does, frequently. And she engages the community to help in design frequently too -- because she cares what people think, like any good designer. It is not that hard to understand that a community member's opinion being important and desired by the organizers is not the same thing as that community member having authority and the designers being required to heed those opinions.

I don't need to speak for ScaredGirl but I can say: in spite of the extremely true fact that I would be an idiot not to care what my clients think, that doesn't change the fact that if any one of them were to make similar statements of insolence to some of the ones I've read in others' posts on this website, I would probably find them so ridiculous that I wouldn't even be mad -- I would just write them off as infantile. So if ScaredGirl was pissed, upset, what-have-you, I understand -- and I'm not such a condescending self-important prick that I say it's because she's "emotional" (not that I'm implying you have said anything even close to that, I'm just making the point). Even if she is the most emotional person on the planet. That would be like stealing something and getting in front of the judge and feeling like the whole problem was caused by the fact that this was the meanest judge in the world. The problem of course was with me and what I did -- not how other people reacted to it.

Anyway, that is a frank assessment of this situation and I hope you can understand my perspective even if you disagree. I do believe that most people who create products think about these things much the way I do, and that they would find customers' presumption of rights over the design process ludicrous. Perhaps the status quo for free internet games is somehow different, but my experience with them and my reading of ScaredGirl's posts suggests otherwise.

There you have it, those are my 2¢.

QuantumT

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193053#msg193053
« Reply #207 on: November 04, 2010, 05:59:23 am »
Just so you know Sir Valimont, part of the reason everyone tends to respond so negatively you your posts is that you say things like this:
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It is highly delusional to think that the organizer(s) of this free event deviated from any reasonable expectations.
The exact same information could be conveyed this way:
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I think it is incorrect to think that the organizer(s) of this free event deviated from any reasonable expectations.
Basically, personal attacks are incredibly counterproductive if you want anybody to actually listen to you.
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Whether that is because the expectations players had were themselves delusional, or whether it's because players thinking that when their expectations aren't met that gives them moral authority to "act like dicks," is somewhat moot.
Here, breaking those expectations broke the social contract. When we all signed up for the event, we expected certain things. We might not be paying any money, but we are draining a large portion of time into this. If you think the developers have no obligations to us, then I'm not sure why you think that we have any obligation to the event.

The developers can do whatever they want, sure. But in that case, so can we. If the developers are allowed to break our expectations, then why aren't we allowed to break theirs?
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have no right whatsoever to dictate their opinions to me let alone control my creative endeavors
Perhaps. But you also have not right whatsoever to dictate your opinions to them. If they don't like your product, they have every right to just walk away. I'll note that nobody here even threatened to leave.

A better parallel here would be this:

Lets say you wrote a piece of computer software (the war). It had this one feature you thought was really cool (event cards). But your customers (the war community) hated it. So they all said "Well I like the software but I really hate the feature. I'll just go on and use the product like the feature didn't exist."

You have no right,  even though you developed the software, to force them to use the feature.

Long story short:
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If you want us to commit our time to the event, then you have the obligation to make the event something we want to commit our time to. If you don't care if we participate, then you can do whatever you want

Nume

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193070#msg193070
« Reply #208 on: November 04, 2010, 07:20:25 am »
When it comes to customers, the reality is, if they don't like it, they can stop paying and go elsewhere. The payment they are making is voluntary and based on their own expectations. As long as I am not broadcasting expectations to the contrary -- like that I say I sell apples when I sell oranges -- they have no legal or ethical right to be upset if they don't like what they get.
You just said that people are free to do what you accuse everyone of doing so wrongly. Also, NOONE has tried to dictate the rules. Thats probably the most irritating thing everyone keeps saying. We never said "You have to change this! bwaarg!" All anyone said was that we dont think its fair, so we (as in us, ourselves) are not going to use it. We never threatened anyone or tried to dictate the rules. We could have just said we're not going to participate to make it what you are saying in the above quote, but I dont think any of us wanted that because it would still be a fun event, and one worth spending our time, even if we had to go againt upgraded decks using unupgraded decks. There was no obligation to change the rules. Scaredgirl changed them to try to calm the community and prevent drama, but that doesnt mean we forced it.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193092#msg193092
« Reply #209 on: November 04, 2010, 07:59:08 am »
When it comes to customers, the reality is, if they don't like it, they can stop paying and go elsewhere. The payment they are making is voluntary and based on their own expectations. As long as I am not broadcasting expectations to the contrary -- like that I say I sell apples when I sell oranges -- they have no legal or ethical right to be upset if they don't like what they get.
You just said that people are free to do what you accuse everyone of doing so wrongly. Also, NOONE has tried to dictate the rules. Thats probably the most irritating thing everyone keeps saying. We never said "You have to change this! bwaarg!" All anyone said was that we dont think its fair, so we (as in us, ourselves) are not going to use it. We never threatened anyone or tried to dictate the rules. We could have just said we're not going to participate to make it what you are saying in the above quote, but I dont think any of us wanted that because it would still be a fun event, and one worth spending our time, even if we had to go againt upgraded decks using unupgraded decks. There was no obligation to change the rules. Scaredgirl changed them to try to calm the community and prevent drama, but that doesnt mean we forced it.
The community did not choose one of the options of the event card. The community chose to abandon the event card. It does not matter what the event card said; it matters that the community decided to abandon it. You cannot abandon a rule -- that's the same thing as breaking it.

In the United States, sometimes people make donations to charities. When an American citizen makes a donation of $1000 to certain charities, there is a law that says he is allowed to pay $1000 less dollars in taxes. Obviously donating to charity is an option, so if someone just pays the $1000 tax, that's fine.

Now: let's say an influential US citizen doesn't like the law. Well, he doesn't have to donate anything. He can make that choice. However, he ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT make a public speech about how he and all the employees in his company are not going to donate in such a way as to encourage other people in similar positions to also not donate.

Try to understand:

1) Sometimes the government provides choices.

2) It is legal to make whatever choice you want.

3) It is illegal to stop the government from offering that same choice to everyone else.

4) Because of #3, it is illegal to create a situation where everyone is living in a context where there is no choice. The government has the authority to offer a choice -- so it is the government's "right" to have a society where everyone has the choices that they offer.

What this community did is the same thing as #4. Not #3, but #4.

Another analogy that might be easier to understand:

If at your school you are allowed to vote for Mr. Smith or Mrs. Sanders as teacher of the week, then no one can argue if you vote for one person or the other. But if a group of "cool kids" decide that everyone should choose Mr. Smith, then if they intentionally create a situation where everyone is influenced to choose Mr. Smith -- like if they make a public announcement that that's what they are doing because of this and that reason that would be uncool to argue with -- then they have done something wrong. Why? Because they have taken away the authority of the school to enforce a decision-making process on the school's terms. It makes no difference if the cool kids are actually threatening to beat people up if they vote the wrong way or if they don't. The METHOD USED to change people's votes is irrelevant; the act of changing the context of choice-making is what matters.

So, in fact yes, dictating the rules is exactly what the community was trying to do. Well, in real life it is illegal when it comes to government statutes and it is grounds to get you fired if you do it inside of an organization. And these things are so basic and obvious to those of us who know about managing choices for people that it's actually difficult to explain. It just seems obvious.

I know it's the same for you: It just seems so obvious that you didn't break any rules. You made a choice that you were given and it seems ridiculous for someone to say you broke rules. What you are not seeing is that the rule you're breaking is not a written rule, but it is a basic rule of engagement, a basic understanding between participant and organizer: and those rules are just as important if not MORE important than rules within the event. If you break a rule in the event you can receive a penalty -- but if you become a person who refuses to uphold the basic relationship of organizer and participant, you make the event impossible.

That is the problem and that is why you see the posts ScaredGirl and I have made.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

QuantumT

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193108#msg193108
« Reply #210 on: November 04, 2010, 08:37:51 am »
The community did not choose one of the options of the event card. The community chose to abandon the event card. It does not matter what the event card said; it matters that the community decided to abandon it. You cannot abandon a rule -- that's the same thing as breaking it.

In the United States, sometimes people make donations to charities. When an American citizen makes a donation of $1000 to certain charities, there is a law that says he is allowed to pay $1000 less dollars in taxes. Obviously donating to charity is an option, so if someone just pays the $1000 tax, that's fine.

Now: let's say an influential US citizen doesn't like the law. Well, he doesn't have to donate anything. He can make that choice. However, he ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT make a public speech about how he and all the employees in his company are not going to donate in such a way as to encourage other people in similar positions to also not donate.
He absolutely can do that. It is entirely within the realm of free speech. This would be called "trying to influence public opinion." This is clearly acceptable under our current laws (I mean come on, did YOU see all of the political ads?).

Quote
Try to understand:

1) Sometimes the government provides choices.

2) It is legal to make whatever choice you want.

3) It is illegal to stop the government from offering that same choice to everyone else.

4) Because of #3, it is illegal to create a situation where everyone is living in a context where there is no choice. The government has the authority to offer a choice -- so it is the government's "right" to have a society where everyone has the choices that they offer.

What this community did is the same thing as #4. Not #3, but #4.
It's a best a matter of opinion if they did this. In fact, it seems to me like Mr. Blonde actively encouraged other people to decide what they wanted to do for themselves.

I agree. Flaming teams that will use the upped cards or SG or the warmasters should not be done. Team Death will not be taking advantage of any of these "type" of event cards but fully do not expect others to follow suit.

No complaints, no whining will be forthcoming from our team.
This certainly doesn't seem coercive to me.

Also, it's not like he was even the first one to state his dislike for the card (there were around 5 pages worth of complaints before he even got there). He merely echoed the what the public opinion already was. That's the only what he said made such an impact. If he had said the same thing about the first card, he would have been promptly ignored.

Quote
Another analogy that might be easier to understand:

If at your school you are allowed to vote for Mr. Smith or Mrs. Sanders as teacher of the week, then no one can argue if you vote for one person or the other. But if a group of "cool kids" decide that everyone should choose Mr. Smith, then if they intentionally create a situation where everyone is influenced to choose Mr. Smith -- like if they make a public announcement that that's what they are doing because of this and that reason that would be uncool to argue with -- then they have done something wrong. Why? Because they have taken away the authority of the school to enforce a decision-making process on the school's terms. It makes no difference if the cool kids are actually threatening to beat people up if they vote the wrong way or if they don't. The METHOD USED to change people's votes is irrelevant; the act of changing the context of choice-making is what matters.

So, in fact yes, dictating the rules is exactly what the community was trying to do. Well, in real life it is illegal when it comes to government statutes and it is grounds to get you fired if you do it inside of an organization. And these things are so basic and obvious to those of us who know about managing choices for people that it's actually difficult to explain. It just seems obvious.
Have you ever even SEEN political ads. This is exactly the way virtually all of them function.

Also, by almost direct analogy, public figures would NEVER be able to voice their opinions, because they might "influence" somebody.

Quote
I know it's the same for you: It just seems so obvious that you didn't break any rules. You made a choice that you were given and it seems ridiculous for someone to say you broke rules. What you are not seeing is that the rule you're breaking is not a written rule, but it is a basic rule of engagement, a basic understanding between participant and organizer: and those rules are just as important if not MORE important than rules within the event. If you break a rule in the event you can receive a penalty -- but if you become a person who refuses to uphold the basic relationship of organizer and participant, you make the event impossible.
The same argument can easily be made in reverse.
Quote
basic rule of engagement, a basic understanding between participant and organizer: and those rules are just as important if not MORE important than rules within the event.
There is a very distinct limit to how much you can do as an organizer and still reasonably expect people to be ok with. Let me try to explain this with another example.

Let's say that all of a sudden, when we got to the finals, SG made an announcement that the winner would be determined by throwing dice (which actually isn't far from the truth with those Age cards around). Everyone would have screamed bloody murder about it, and rightly so. The months worth of time that every had committed to the war coming down to a throw of the dice? Nobody would have bothered committing all of that time if it was just going to come down to throwing some dice. Whether through malice or merely lack of forethought, you gave them something that it was not reasonable to expect and was distinctly different than what they thought they were paying for (with time).

What would have happened then would be one of two things:

1) The rule is promptly changed (note that this is what would have occurred because SG can be a reasonable person).

2) Assuming however, that SG had stuck by the rule, it seems nearly certain that everyone would have said "screw that" and gone off and held the matches themselves.

You can't get away from the fact that if the participants are to have any obligations to the organizers, then the organizers also have obligations to the participants.

Nume

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193114#msg193114
« Reply #211 on: November 04, 2010, 08:48:54 am »
When it comes to customers, the reality is, if they don't like it, they can stop paying and go elsewhere. The payment they are making is voluntary and based on their own expectations. As long as I am not broadcasting expectations to the contrary -- like that I say I sell apples when I sell oranges -- they have no legal or ethical right to be upset if they don't like what they get.
You just said that people are free to do what you accuse everyone of doing so wrongly. Also, NOONE has tried to dictate the rules. Thats probably the most irritating thing everyone keeps saying. We never said "You have to change this! bwaarg!" All anyone said was that we dont think its fair, so we (as in us, ourselves) are not going to use it. We never threatened anyone or tried to dictate the rules. We could have just said we're not going to participate to make it what you are saying in the above quote, but I dont think any of us wanted that because it would still be a fun event, and one worth spending our time, even if we had to go againt upgraded decks using unupgraded decks. There was no obligation to change the rules. Scaredgirl changed them to try to calm the community and prevent drama, but that doesnt mean we forced it.
The community did not choose one of the options of the event card. The community chose to abandon the event card. It does not matter what the event card said; it matters that the community decided to abandon it. You cannot abandon a rule -- that's the same thing as breaking it.

In the United States, sometimes people make donations to charities. When an American citizen makes a donation of $1000 to certain charities, there is a law that says he is allowed to pay $1000 less dollars in taxes. Obviously donating to charity is an option, so if someone just pays the $1000 tax, that's fine.

Now: let's say an influential US citizen doesn't like the law. Well, he doesn't have to donate anything. He can make that choice. However, he ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT make a public speech about how he and all the employees in his company are not going to donate in such a way as to encourage other people in similar positions to also not donate.

Try to understand:

1) Sometimes the government provides choices.

2) It is legal to make whatever choice you want.

3) It is illegal to stop the government from offering that same choice to everyone else.

4) Because of #3, it is illegal to create a situation where everyone is living in a context where there is no choice. The government has the authority to offer a choice -- so it is the government's "right" to have a society where everyone has the choices that they offer.

What this community did is the same thing as #4. Not #3, but #4.

Another analogy that might be easier to understand:

If at your school you are allowed to vote for Mr. Smith or Mrs. Sanders as teacher of the week, then no one can argue if you vote for one person or the other. But if a group of "cool kids" decide that everyone should choose Mr. Smith, then if they intentionally create a situation where everyone is influenced to choose Mr. Smith -- like if they make a public announcement that that's what they are doing because of this and that reason that would be uncool to argue with -- then they have done something wrong. Why? Because they have taken away the authority of the school to enforce a decision-making process on the school's terms. It makes no difference if the cool kids are actually threatening to beat people up if they vote the wrong way or if they don't. The METHOD USED to change people's votes is irrelevant; the act of changing the context of choice-making is what matters.

So, in fact yes, dictating the rules is exactly what the community was trying to do. Well, in real life it is illegal when it comes to government statutes and it is grounds to get you fired if you do it inside of an organization. And these things are so basic and obvious to those of us who know about managing choices for people that it's actually difficult to explain. It just seems obvious.

I know it's the same for you: It just seems so obvious that you didn't break any rules. You made a choice that you were given and it seems ridiculous for someone to say you broke rules. What you are not seeing is that the rule you're breaking is not a written rule, but it is a basic rule of engagement, a basic understanding between participant and organizer: and those rules are just as important if not MORE important than rules within the event. If you break a rule in the event you can receive a penalty -- but if you become a person who refuses to uphold the basic relationship of organizer and participant, you make the event impossible.

That is the problem and that is why you see the posts ScaredGirl and I have made.

I hope this clears things up a bit.
First of all, as quantumt said, most of your examples arent actually illegal, and happen regularly, so I dont really see what you're getting at. Secondly, Mrblonde did nothing to get people to join. He even told us as a team "No need to let anyone know that we are boycotting these cards. No need to tell people, 'wow and we won even without using this event card' or 'we only lost because we didn't use the event card'". He just made one post to let people know we were doing it, and were perfectly happy to move on from there with nothing changing. I wont deny that we hoped it would change, because like I said we thought it was unfair, but we never went around trying to get people to join us so we could dictate our own rules because we're just so great and everything.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193118#msg193118
« Reply #212 on: November 04, 2010, 08:57:09 am »
Well I don't know what to tell you except that in my example of the corporation talking about tax reductions, it is quite plainly illegal and your suppositions to the contrary are just wrong. If it happened in real life it would result in legal fines up the wazoo, possibly damages, and probably other probationary measures.

Secondly, you miss the point when you cite examples of things ScaredGirl could have done that would be egregiously unfair. The fact is that her "Age" cards were not unfair at all. They were completely within the realm of normal, to-be-expected possibilities. The only argument was whether or not they were balanced. Your example was of something unfair, not unbalanced. Of course doing something unfair would be a breach by ScaredGirl. Of course doing something unbalanced is not a breach.

Last, I never mentioned MrBlonde by name and I believe that he is one of the only people involved in this entire incident who both apologized and accepted blame. That sort of attitude from others would help the situation. But more relevantly: This is a question of intentions. The intention was never to "encourage people to make a decision" based on the event card. Making a decision based on the event card would be considering whether or not it was a good idea to use this card upped or this card unupped, or build this deck because it took advantage of these upped cards, etc, etc, etc. The intention was to encourage people to make a decision about whether or not they would use the event card at all, which means a decision about whether or not the card was fair. That is a different decision -- and based on an unacceptable assumption to be made by a participant in the event. It is both wrong to call the card unfair -- which is not the same thing as unbalanced -- and it is wrong to attempt to dictate the acceptance of the event card.

The Age of Light card was not unfair. Whether it was unbalanced is irrelevant. But it was not unfair. And the actions undertaken are only acceptable when something is unfair.

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193119#msg193119
« Reply #213 on: November 04, 2010, 08:58:58 am »
Mrblonde did nothing to get people to join.
Not to be rude Nume, but this is naïve.

People don't have to say "do this" to be telling someone to do something. When you are a team leader and you say "my team is not using this card because this card is unfair," you are most definitely inciting other team leaders to do the same thing. And please don't start quoting him and telling me that he never said the card was unfair. Of course that is exactly what was implied.

Ask MrBlonde yourself and he will tell you that yes, getting other people to do the same thing is exactly the effect of a statement like that. Whether he meant it that way or not, that is what it is. And it's not complicated or difficult to see why.

Why did people make these statements? The reason is obvious, you know it and I know it ... we all know it.

The reason was to say: This card is unacceptable. <--- That statement, which all of you were making, is the problem. It is a false statement which you are NOT ALLOWED to make. By making it and making decisions based on it, you broke the rules.

QuantumT

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193137#msg193137
« Reply #214 on: November 04, 2010, 09:42:39 am »
Well I don't know what to tell you except that in my example of the corporation talking about tax reductions, it is quite plainly illegal and your suppositions to the contrary are just wrong.
Good thing you're wrong, otherwise things like the civil rights movement would have been illegal.

Quote me the laws that say otherwise. There are some laws that restrict what companies can do with advertising, but not about political speech.

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Secondly, you miss the point when you cite examples of things ScaredGirl could have done that would be egregious. The fact is that her "Age" cards were not egregious at all. They were completely within the realm of normal, to-be-expected possibilities. The only argument was whether or not they were balanced. Your example was of something unfair, not unbalanced. Of course doing something unfair would be a breach by ScaredGirl. Of course doing something unbalanced is not a breach.
Are you serious? The huge backlash itself is clear evidence that cards like the Age ones were not expected.

Also with the age cards in play, dice throwing was almost literally what was occurring. Here are some different "rolls" (letting air and fire be the final 2 teams)

1) Age of Air - Oh hey look Air you won the dice roll. Here's the war.
2) Age of Fire - Oh hey look Fire you won the dice roll. Here's the war.
3)4)5)6) Relatively balanced event cards, where fair competition takes place.

By letting the winner be decided by whichever event card randomly comes up, you've basically turned the whole thing into throwing dice, or at least forced it to be an integral part of the event.

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Last, I never mentioned MrBlonde by name and I believe that he is one of the only people involved in this entire incident who both apologized and accepted blame. That sort of attitude from others would help the situation. But more relevantly: This is a question of intentions. The intention was never to "encourage people to make a decision" based on the event card. Making a decision based on the event card would be considering whether or not it was a good idea to use this card upped or this card unupped, or build this deck because it took advantage of these upped cards, etc, etc, etc. The intention was to encourage people to make a decision about whether or not they would use the event card at all, which means a decision about whether or not the card was fair. That is a different decision -- and based on an unacceptable assumption to be made by a participant in the event. It is both wrong to call the card unfair -- which is not the same thing as unbalanced -- and it is wrong to attempt to dictate the acceptance of the event card.
Of course the intent is to sway public opinion. That's ALWAYS the point of civil disobedience.

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The Age of Light card was not unfair. Whether it was unbalanced is irrelevant. But it was not unfair. And the actions undertaken are only acceptable when something is unfair.
I'm not sure how you're using these words at this point, so I can't really respond.
Mrblonde did nothing to get people to join.
Not to be rude Nume, but this is naïve.

People don't have to say "do this" to be telling someone to do something. When you are a team leader and you say "my team is not using this card because this card is unfair," you are most definitely inciting other team leaders to do the same thing. And please don't start quoting him and telling me that he never said the card was unfair. Of course that is exactly what was implied.

Ask MrBlonde yourself and he will tell you that yes, getting other people to do the same thing is exactly the effect of a statement like that. Whether he meant it that way or not, that is what it is. And it's not complicated or difficult to see why.

Why did people make these statements? The reason is obvious, you know it and I know it ... we all know it.

The reason was to say: This card is unacceptable. <--- That statement, which all of you were making, is the problem. It is a false statement which you are NOT ALLOWED to make. By making it and making decisions based on it, you broke the rules.
I absolutely am allowed to make that statement. If people aren't allowed to make these kinds of statements, then you have ABSOLUTELY no right to expect them to continue to participate.

I'll say it again to emphasize it, if you completely ignore what the participants want, you have no right whatsoever expect them to continue to participate.

PS- Sir Valimont, you've degraded more people and called people more names than any other person in this thread. You are the LAST person who should be calling anybody out for doing the same.

PPS- Sorry kobis I didn't see that. I just saw his posts and responded (which was definitely a mistake).

PPPS - I'm done with this waste of time.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Event Cards (removed from the event) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14874.msg193142#msg193142
« Reply #215 on: November 04, 2010, 09:58:21 am »
Good thing you're wrong, otherwise things like the civil rights movement would have been illegal.
The civil rights movement was completely and utterly illegal. It wouldn't be a movement if it wasn't.

Are you serious? The huge backlash itself is clear evidence that cards like the Age ones were not expected.
There was no part of the Age cards which was outside of the obvious realm of possibility.

Also with the age cards in play, dice throwing was almost literally what was occurring. Here are some different "rolls"
Even if the statistics were identical to that your point is invalid. Rolling a die has nothing to do with the understanding of event cards or the more basic rules of Elements War. Event cards have exactly to do with that understanding, whether they are affecting salvage amounts, discard amounts or upgraded cards usable in decks. The two things -- event cards and die rolling -- can't be compared. One is within the rules of the game, the other is not. One is therefore fair and the other is not.

Of course the intent is to sway public opinion. That's ALWAYS the point of civil disobedience.
Civil disobedience ... just read the title. It's completely against the rules of the authority. The term itself makes no sense unless it is illegal.

When it happens in history and is commendable it's because something in the system is unfair. That is not the case here.

I absolutely am allowed to make that statement. If people aren't allowed to make these kinds of statements, then you have ABSOLUTELY no right to expect them to continue to participate.

I'll say it again to emphasize it, if you completely ignore what the participants want, you have no right whatsoever expect them to continue to participate.
You are absolutely 100% wrong.

The entire definition of a participant is someone who submits to the rules of an event. If he doesn't like it, he can leave. As the organizer I have a right to expect him to participate and follow the rules, or he can leave. I would be stupid to expect him to stay if I completely ignore what he wants, but that doesn't change what I just said: I have a right to expect him to participate and follow the rules.

You are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to have participants not leave, but stay and ignore the rules. That is not acceptable. If someone wanted to leave because of the Age cards, of course that would be acceptable.

PS- Sir Valimont, you've degraded more people and called people more names than any other person in this thread. You are the LAST person who should be calling anybody out for doing the same.
I never resort to personal attacks because they are neither relevant to the point I'm making nor conducive to good conversation. If you'd care to back up your claims with quoted examples of me calling someone a name, by all means do so. You will of course note that strong language when not directed at someone in particular is far from name-calling.

 

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