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Offline Vinvick3714

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg239872#msg239872
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 11:56:49 pm »
I kinda like EvaRia's idea, giving each team X number of blank cards that are of their element and can be converted into an on-element card at any point in the war (of course, once you convert a blank card, it stays to that card you changed it to).

This is an idea I like. Every team could choose up to 24 blank cards they can convert to a card of their element once. This would help against having no cards of your element.
This makes a lot of sense, and I like it a lot! It would be very easy to implement, as we could just have another column in the vault spreadsheet saying how many of the 24 you have left, and records of what you converted them into.

QuantumT

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg239889#msg239889
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2011, 12:10:57 am »
I don't know if that will solve all the issues involved. It's almost just like you took those 24 cards from the beginning and that was it.

For an example of an issue that it wouldn't help, even if :air had managed to win it's last match and therefore bring me back into the mix, it wouldn't have mattered because we only had 5 non-pillar air cards left. This was just a virtue of the fact that we had won with a single deck a number of times, and we didn't have any opportunity to gain back the air cards we had lost.

So it might have been better for us to take a penalty just so we didn't have to field either 2 subpar decks or one worthless one.

I prefer the idea of extremely limited conversion to on-element non-pillar cards.

Offline truddy02

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg239901#msg239901
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 12:27:51 am »
First I think we should change to unlimited conversion.  Just do not allow any conversion before round 1.  This way you should never run out of pillars or pendulums but you have to take enough pillars in your initial vault for your first round decks.  Also you may only discard pillars/pendulums from a deck if you have discarded all of the non-pillar cards.  This sounds a little complicated but it really isn't.  It just means in the early rounds you cannot just discard pillars and convert new ones from whatever cards in your vault you don't want.

As far as getting new on element cards, I think there should be someway to do this when salvaging.  I'm not sure exactly how it could be done.  One idea is that you could salvage back cards that you lost in that round or previous rounds.  Rather than salvage 6 cards, you salvage only 3.  You would have to decide before the round ends and put it in the title of the results thread to make it easier for the warmasters to modify vault counts.  Something different could be done but I like the idea of it somehow being connected with salvage.

Offline Essence

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg240158#msg240158
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 07:17:36 am »
OK, let's step back and look at the situation:

We'd like a rule that allows conversion to any card of your element, not just pillars/pendulums.  24 cards per round would keep you from making suicide decks. 

But just allowing 24 cards to be converted each round straight up dilutes the impact of your initial Vault choices.

So, the conversions have to be limited somehow in order to make the Vault meaningful.


That's the totality of the problem. 


Then, the problem really is in coming up with creative limitations to the conversion process.  Such limitations don't have to be based on anything other than 'it makes Vault-building important'.  Limitations based on random factors like casting costs, card elements, or the total number of Vault cards remaining are totally cool provided they make a modicum of sense and they make the Vault building process important.

Right?


If that's the case, here's my totally off-the-cuff idea.

Each team builds a list of cards from their element, with two cards on each line of the list.  For example:

Round 1) Toadfish, Freeze
Round 2) Ice Shield, Purify
Round 3) Steam Machine, Nymph's Tears
Round 4) Arctic Squid, Trident

and so on.

A team may convert up to 24 cards per round into cards of their own element.  Each Round, you can only convert cards into Pillars, Pendulums, and the cards that appear on or before the current Round Number on that list. 


That way, Vault Building is very important for the initial rounds, and never entirely loses significance, but the more scarce resources become, the more powerful the ability to covert cards gets.


If that's too powerful, make it one card per Round. 
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

Offline Demagog

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg240175#msg240175
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2011, 07:43:35 am »
I think there should just be an initial cap. Each team starts out with a certain number of cards they can convert throughout the entire war, perhaps depending upon how much was in their starting vault (could be the same across the board though). Either this cap could be permanent, or teams could get their cap increased for certain reasons, such as not converting cards in a round, or just based off their performance (bad or good).

Another option is a percentage based conversion. Each round, a team can convert up to a certain percent of their cards. There would be a low amount that teams could always convert (such as 15, so that a team left with 30 non-pillar cards and stuck with a 10% conversion rule would have access to more than 3 pillars/pendulums). The percentage could be increased as the war continues, or not. The percentage itself could be a universal value, or could be team dependent based off of how many players they have left, how many cards, how many pillars/pendulums, etc.

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg240216#msg240216
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2011, 09:49:51 am »
Why not just take on-element pillars out of the equation entirely and reduce the initial vault size to something like 360.  If you want off-element pillars you'd still have to pack them.

Number of players would then be decided by dividing vault size by a smaller number, like 24 cards instead of 36.  So if you had 48 cards, you'd have to field 2 players, but that isn't restrictive because they could each field 60 card decks loaded with pillars (since the limits don't include pillars).

Pillars are mostly an accounting headache as well as being a potential source of suicides, lack of pends also potentially limits salvaging creativity in an unnecessary way as well.  They're also not all that important for opposing teams regarding strategy and vault tracking.  What I cared about in vault tracking was specific cards or types of cards.  I cared when an enemy ran out of pc, or cc, or shields or attacking creatures or something like that.  Tracking pillars was largely unimportant.

So, any team can fill a deck with on-element pillars or pendulums anytime they want to, making necessary suicides non-existent.  Instead it becomes all about the central/important cards, which is how it always was anyway, except now the pillar accounting problems are relieved.

Next, you eliminate pillar conversion entirely - since the on-element pillars are gone - and replace it with a new concept.

Change conversion to be something that happens when salvaging from a defeated opponent.  Allow teams to either take the off-element card listed, or else convert it on the spot to on-element equivalent cards.  An equivalent card would be along the lines xinef was talking about earlier, large quanta creature for large quanta creature, spell for spell, shield for shield etc.  Essentially you categorize the types of card for conversion.  This allows for a lot of on-element repair to vaults mid-war, and is quite powerful.  As a result I think teams should have to publish their cards converted publically each round.  That balances the additional power by revealing the choices for vault tracking by opponents.

This also makes vault tracking more important, because when a card is discovered to be in a vault, it doesn't "maybe disappear in conversion later", you know it's still in there.

The reason I think conversion of this type still has a place, is because you don't want the situation where a recovering team that gains an additional player to field through winning but has no on-element useful cards, and is simply loading decks with on-element pillars to qualify for 50% rules because that element will never be able to salvage on-element cards to fix it.  That may not be a technical "suicide" but it still kind of is because it's so weakened by being composed mainly of half-dead pends.

The only additional issue this creates is you would need to have a minimum limit of non-pillar cards in each deck, say 12, and discards would be required to come from non-pillar cards as those are what are actually in the vault.  You also couldn't discard more than was in the actual minimum limit in some decks because it couldn't be counted on to be there.  Some types of decks (like stalls) are inherently pillar heavy, so this minimum limit couldn't be excessive or you'd break deck types.  In order to keep the war from dragging on longer, you could still force 20-30 card discards (possibly 20 because pillars are now invisible so you don't need as high a discard limit).  It's just that now 12 cards come from the deck used (the 12 is whatever your non-pillar minimum is), and the other 8-18 would be discarded from the vault.  This would grant some leeway to teams using risky but powerful decks using key cards, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing.  It would have the effect of making vaults harder to cripple through bad luck.  Losing with the last deck containing deflags wouldn't necessarily mean you had to discard your last pc option, therefore your vault would be less easily crippled by untimely losses.  That would lead to more potent fights for longer into the war as well.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

kobisjeruk

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg240244#msg240244
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2011, 11:25:19 am »
Wildcard(s)
in addition to salvage, you get 1 (or 2) wildcard(s) for each match win
you dont actually get a card but instead, similar to EvaRia's idea, you get to convert any card to any in-element card after R1 and it will uses up 1 wildcard

e.g. in a 8-members per team, you can get as much as 8 (or 16) wildcards after Round 1
this does not increase your vault count by 8 (or 16), it merely give you the option of converting cards into an in-element card of your choice (rather than a pillar/pendulum) for each wildcards you still have

pros: you can have some potent badass in-element decks if you keep on winning and performing better than everyone else

cons: you still suck if you keep on losing (which is why you need to save up on / hold onto all wildcards you've won until you really need to use it)

Offline Dragoon

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg240262#msg240262
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2011, 12:29:02 pm »
I like Skydaemon's suggestion a lot.  However, if you tie conversion to winning, then the team that needs it the most (ie the team that keeps losing) has the least access to it.  But I do like the idea of making it public if you convert any cards so that those who are keeping tabs on vaults aren't wasting their time due to unknowable conversions happening.  I do like the idea of giving unlimited Pillars/Pendulums too.  Like he said, those aren't usually tracked and they take away one of the main reasons teams suicide.

Offline truddy02

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg240404#msg240404
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2011, 05:47:01 pm »
I also like the idea of any conversions being made public.  This is a sort of penalty in itself to offset the advantage of converting cards.  Tying conversion to winning actually does help the teams that need it the most.  Losing a lot messes you up on pillars which is being addressed separately.  As long as a team uses decent vault management (discarding mostly off element cards when given the choice), the point where you struggle with enough on element cards is when you must field more decks in one round than won in the previous round (ex: you go 3-3 in a round and must field 4 decks the next round).  So if you tie converting to winning, you still need good vault management but you don't get screwed by salvages forcing you to field a new deck.

Offline lokiburn4

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg241199#msg241199
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2011, 09:14:38 pm »
On a different tangent, what if X% of each vault was dedicated to the team element, and specific cards would be chosen without restriction for each deck, between each round. Essentially, as long as a team doesn't exceed their core element allotment as a whole between rounds, the cards may be whatever you want them to be.

Now, if this were the case, the math for discarding and salvaging would have to be altered to focus on the off element portion of the vault, which in turn (by growing or shrinking between rounds) would affect the % core element allotment in the vault.

I have not totally thought this through, but it's another angle, so ... ?

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg241554#msg241554
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2011, 10:31:47 am »
I think we are going about this the wrong way. We are assuming the current way War is structured should stay entirely the same. Let's try a different approach:

Let's say: All cards in a team's starting Vault have to be from its own element. Then teams also get 100 wildcards. Those can be converted in ANY round to ANY card. This way, access to NON-element cards is the rare part, and salvage actually becomes very important.

Event cards will surely play on wildcards (for example giving each team a free wildcard bonus, allowing conversion of off-element cards back into wildcards, etc).

The elegant part of this solution is that the card base is so much more heavily based on teams' own elements that not having enough per-element cards is an unlikely problem. Also, there is added strategy in whether or not to keep wildcards undecided in early rounds. If it's hard to get more of them (maybe they can be salvaged at a lower rate than other cards, or not at all) then it makes a difference whether one uses them early or saves them in case of need of bailout later on. A smart team can save 20 wildcards and if it's about to lose can convert them as a last-ditch effort to play a complete surprise deck and stay alive in critical rounds.

Another advantage of this change would be that teams have a source of constant innovation. If they have a bad round against an opponent who seems to counter them frequently, they can spend a few extra wildcards next round getting those cards that counter them well ... but of course since wildcards are a limited supply, these choices are risky.

Being able to predict how many wildcards teams have left is also a new wrinkle in this system.

Making it much harder for a team to dominate War is another wrinkle. Since any team can use wildcards to take surprises that are hard to counter, it's unlikely any team will be able to devastate others like Entropy in War #2 ... and that's a good thing, because losing a lot early is the reason the mechanics of deckbuilding was hard for many.

QuantumT

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Re: Changes to card converting https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18659.msg241836#msg241836
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2011, 08:10:07 pm »
Perhaps this could be alleviated by an appropriate choice of the number of wild cards, but that system seems to give too much of an advantage to elements that can form effective monos. Some teams would be forced to use up the majority of their wild cards immediately because monos in their element just aren't that effective, while others could save them to be used later.

So the elements that can't form effective monos will be forced to use their wild cards first, then the elements that can form effective monos will be able to use their wild cards to counter what the other elements pick.

I do think there is something to be said for trying to think outside the box though.

 

anything
blarg: