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Offline BeefSupreme

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075560#msg1075560
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2013, 02:44:21 am »
Your "How to build it" . . . isn't any good.
Let's see you build a better one rather than shooting down someone else's ._.
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Offline ChapuzTopic starter

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075566#msg1075566
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2013, 02:52:17 am »
Your "How to build it" . . . isn't any good.
Let's see you build a better one rather than shooting down someone else's ._.
Dm is actually right. I didn't do it because there isn't a more direct way to explain it, "look at the cards you don't need and sell them. The order isn't important."
I could clarify that buying the pillars first can do it faster, that would earn the players like... 30 seconds.
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Offline BeefSupreme

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075573#msg1075573
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2013, 03:05:52 am »
Your "How to build it" . . . isn't any good.
Let's see you build a better one rather than shooting down someone else's ._.
Dm is actually right. I didn't do it because there isn't a more direct way to explain it, "look at the cards you don't need and sell them. The order isn't important."
I could clarify that buying the pillars first can do it faster, that would earn the players like... 30 seconds.
Maybe just adding "make sure to see how much cards sell for" would help point noobies in the right direction.
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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075646#msg1075646
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2013, 10:31:00 am »
Your "How to build it" . . . isn't any good.
Let's see you build a better one rather than shooting down someone else's ._.

I'm not the one rebuilding any tutorial. I'm sorry if that was rather rude, but that was what I felt after opening a "How to build" and get a "Sell and buy cards until you reach this deck". He doesn't need a spoiler in every part to tell us the obvious. It's like if I make a tutorial of a game and instead of giving you detailed information about how to pass each level I just say "Complete the level and you will then see a cutscene. Complete the next level, for another cutscene."

PS, it can save you more than simple 30 seconds. Selling a card wrong means that your scheme is ruined and you have to go get more money to get, say, a dragon needed to complete the deck. That means around 5 AI3 matches with a incomplete deck that is sub-optimal. The order, unlike what you said, IS important. ;3


Edit : Let's develop a bit on sub-optimal before someone says that "A last dragon needed" wouldn't be sub-optimal. What I meant isn't the last dragon, you may be required to farm for any card halfway if you screw up selling. Mainly, this is because of this claim :

Quote
Between all the starter decks, the Darkness one is sold much higher than the others. That offers the possibility to make mono deck of every element faster and easier starting with Darkness than starting with each respective element.

That's why we are going to start with the Darkness starter deck and make a deck of any element we want starting from that one.

Which is, kind of false. If you're giving us a starter deck of darkness and you give us the option to build to any element, that just won't happen. A Life deck can easily be made by selling the Darkness cards -- after all Life is cheap. But let's take Aether, for example, where everything is much more expensive? In that scenario, it's easier to start out with the Starter Aether Deck and sell cards in the optimal way to get the Aether deck (which is walking in a tight rope in terms of balance, simply due to quanta output.), not wasting your time with the usual ridiculously slow matches that the Aether deck will force you to do.

Why start out with the starter aether deck? Because you'll get some of the cards you need already in deck. It's faster. And this also holds true to most elements that have a higher cost in cards. (Example : Air. You don't honestly expect people to sell the Darkness cards and buy the Air cards in such a organized way that they can get it before a single match. That is almost impossible. You will only get the Air deck after completing at least the first Four, Five quests. Plus, when completing the quests, your deck is sub-optimal -- since the newbie was told to start with darkness and "Sell and buy cards", he'll have a weird mix of a weak darkness deck with useless Air creatures/useless Air Pillars.)

I'm not saying your tutorial is bad.
I'm saying it's incomplete, which I find perfectly fine to say when all I see are decks and "Sell and buy cards until you get this deck". It just doesn't hold true to our goals.

Quote
Your goal should be to make the most reliable deck for the least amount of electrum in the least amount of time.

Spoiler for Hidden:
Quote
Before you start, start buying and selling cards. You will end with the whole deck before playing a single game!
This, for example, will not happen unless the player is told what cards to sell. Otherwise we'll stop just a bit before the deck, with a weird mix, and have to go farm. This isn't the "least amount of electrum in the least amount of time".

I write this with the best interests of this tutorial in mind and do not wish to start any grudge between any of the players in this argument, and I deeply apologize if anything written in this or any post has sounded rude or seemed like it was attacking you, reader, in any way.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 10:56:57 am by Dm1321 »

Offline ChapuzTopic starter

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075655#msg1075655
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2013, 12:10:00 pm »
Quote
Which is, kind of false. If you're giving us a starter deck of darkness and you give us the option to build to any element, that just won't happen. A Life deck can easily be made by selling the Darkness cards -- after all Life is cheap. But let's take Aether, for example, where everything is much more expensive? In that scenario, it's easier to start out with the Starter Aether Deck and sell cards in the optimal way to get the Aether deck (which is walking in a tight rope in terms of balance, simply due to quanta output.), not wasting your time with the usual ridiculously slow matches that the Aether deck will force you to do.
Not true, starting with Darkness lets you have more dragons and immortals than starting with Aether. Try it and see it for yourself.

Quote
Example : Air. You don't honestly expect people to sell the Darkness cards and buy the Air cards in such a organized way that they can get it before a single match. That is almost impossible. You will only get the Air deck after completing at least the first Four, Five quests. Plus, when completing the quests, your deck is sub-optimal -- since the newbie was told to start with darkness and "Sell and buy cards", he'll have a weird mix of a weak darkness deck with useless Air creatures/useless Air Pillars.
Also false, 3 dragons and 6 UGs are more than enough for AIs 0-2 working flowly. Quests give you enough electrum to get 4-5 dragons and 6 UGs before playing AI3 for the first time.

Quote
Quote
Before you start, start buying and selling cards. You will end with the whole deck before playing a single game!
This, for example, will not happen unless the player is told what cards to sell. Otherwise we'll stop just a bit before the deck, with a weird mix, and have to go farm. This isn't the "least amount of electrum in the least amount of time".
The order is not relevant, as the total amount of electrum gained and bought is the same.

I will, although, make a "buy and sell" optimal order for each deck so people do it in the least amount of time.

I suggest you try starting with each element and getting a better starter deck than starting with Darkness, you will see you can't.
I tried it for every element and ended with THIS conclusion:
Spoiler for proof:
The following decks are the closest to the neat ones that can be made just selling cards from the starter decks, without playing a single game, both for  :darkness and the respective elements

 :aether
Spoiler for Starting with Aether:
need 3 more dragons, 2 shields and 2 immortals, can't buy them selling the cards I have left.
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4sa 4sa 4sa 4t3 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61p 61q 61q 61q 61q 61s 61s 61s 61s 61t 61t 61t 61t 61v 8pu
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
Only 2 dragons and 2 shields missing
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4sa 4sa 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61s 61s 61s 61s 61s 61t 61t 61t 61t 61v 61v 8pu

 :air
Spoiler for Starting with Air:
:electrum left
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4sa 4t3 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5od 5od 5od 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5of 5of 5of 5og 5oh 5oh 5oh 8pr
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
61  :electrum left, had enough to sell replace and stuff for dragons
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5of 5of 5of 5of 5of 8pr

 :death
Spoiler for Starting with Death:
Almost, 1 dragon missing
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52h 52h 52h 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52t 52t 52t 52t 52t 52t 8pk
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
Perfect and 47  :electrum left
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52h 52h 52h 52h 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52t 52t 52t 52t 52t 52t 8pk

 :earth
Spoiler for Starting with Earth:
3 Shriekers missing
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4t3 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58t 58u 58u 590 590 590 590 590 590 591 591 591 8pm
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
Standard Shrieker Rush
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4t3 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 590 590 590 590 590 590 591 591 591 591 591 591 8pm

 :entropy
Spoiler for Starting with Entropy:
4 dragons missing.
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4t3 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vd 4vd 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4vf 4vf 4vh 4vh 4vi 4vi 8pj
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
2 dragons missing
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4t3 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vd 4vd 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4vf 4vf 4vf 4vf 8pj

 :fire
Spoiler for Starting with Fire:
Attempt of "Stall Faster" with 6 phoenixes to compensate the Fahrens. 3 Phoenixes missing, even selling the Fire Shield (can only have 2 phoenixes keeping the shield)
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4t3 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f1 5f1 5f3 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f6 5f6 5fc 5fc 5fc 8po
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
only 1 phoenix missing, and had enough to buy a Fire shield
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4t3 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f5 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 8po

 :gravity
Spoiler for Starting with Gravity:
Trying to make This deck, 3 dragons missing
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55m 55m 55n 55o 55o 55o 55q 55q 562 562 562 562 562 8pl
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55m 55m 55o 55o 55o 55o 55q 55q 562 562 562 562 562 8pl

 :life
Spoiler for Starting with Life:
Almost, 3 more creatures for the classic life rush with 12 creatures
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bu 5bu 5c0 5c0 5c0 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 8pn
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
Neat, with 135  :electrum left
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 5c8 8pn

 :light
Spoiler for Starting with Light:
The closest it can get to This deck. 2 dragons and 3 blessings missing.
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
4sa 4sa 4sa 4t3 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l9 5l9 5la 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lc 5ld 5lf 5lf 5lf 8pr
Spoiler for Starting with Darkness:
2 Dragons missing. Similar to the one starting with light, but it has more after all.
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5la 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 8pr

 :time
Its price is 80  :electrum under  :darkness, that difference compensates the cards  Time's deck already has for a mono rush. Both can make practically the same mono Time rush and a neat ghostmare.

 :water
Its price of a NT rush is so low that any starter deck can build it.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 12:40:36 pm by Chapuz »
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Offline Dm

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075658#msg1075658
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2013, 12:43:54 pm »
Quote
Not true, starting with Darkness lets you have more dragons and immortals than starting with Aether. Try it and see it for yourself.

Will test right now.

Quote
Also false, 3 dragons and 6 UGs are more than enough for AIs 0-2 working flowly. Quests give you enough electrum to get 4-5 dragons and 6 UGs before playing AI3 for the first time.

Please tell me where are you gathering your Air Pillars from. You'd have to sell a lot of darkness cards and get a lot of money to get 6 UG's and 3 Air Dragons, and then have the Air Pillars to power it. Assuming you are starting with darkness, I'm -very very- curious as to how you would get 3 Dragons, 6 UG's, and Air Pillars to power it before a single fight.

Quote
The order is not relevant, as the total amount of electrum gained and bought is the same.

I disagree. Assume you have a 31 card deck and you take out a Darkness Pillar and sell it, and then buy, say, an Air Dragon and place it in the deck. It's a big loss in your electrum. I'm pretty sure there is a case where the money you get, if you do not do the best selling order, will make it an impossibility to lower the amount of cards in your deck (Since it will be 30) and buy a new card to fit it in (Say, you take out another darkness pillar -- you obviously will NOT have enough for a new air dragon and you will be stuck with a 30 card deck that is incomplete.

Quote
I will, although, make a "buy and sell" optimal order for each deck so people do it in the least amount of time.

I thank you.

Quote
I suggest you try starting with each element and getting a better starter deck than starting with Darkness, you will see you can't.
I tried it for every element and ended with THIS conclusion:

I shall.

PS : All confusion about impossibilities came from the lack of selling order that you placed in your Spoilers. I hope this shows you the problems of "Sell and buy until you get this deck".
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 12:46:08 pm by Dm1321 »

Offline ChapuzTopic starter

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075659#msg1075659
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2013, 12:47:29 pm »
Quote
Please tell me where are you gathering your Air Pillars from. You'd have to sell a lot of darkness cards and get a lot of money to get 6 UG's and 3 Air Dragons, and then have the Air Pillars to power it. Assuming you are starting with darkness, I'm -very very- curious as to how you would get 3 Dragons, 6 UG's, and Air Pillars to power it before a single fight.

Sell your Black Dragon, Devourers, Parasites, Dusk Mantle and Nightfall, in order to buy 18 Air pillars and 5 Unstable Gas. Add those to your deck.
Sell all your Aether cards and all the remaining Darkness cards except 3 Obsidian Pillars (your deck should have 30 cards by now), and buy 1 Unstable Gas and 3 Azure Dragons.
Replace them for your last 3 Obsidian Pillars and Dagger, and you are done.

I added a spoiler in the end of my post from above, take it a look.
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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075660#msg1075660
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2013, 12:50:21 pm »

Sell your Black Dragon, Devourers, Parasites, Dusk Mantle and Nightfall, in order to buy 18 Air pillars and 5 Unstable Gas. Add those to your deck.
Sell all your Aether cards and all the remaining Darkness cards except 3 Obsidian Pillars (your deck should have 30 cards by now), and buy 1 Unstable Gas and 3 Azure Dragons.
Replace them for your last 3 Obsidian Pillars and Dagger, and you are done.

I added a spoiler in the end of my post from above, take it a look.

I asked how, not if it was possible. Either way you told me how, so I thank you.

PS: You could have added that explanation to your original spoiler. (I hope you have by now, since you already told me how you did it.)

Offline ChapuzTopic starter

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1075661#msg1075661
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2013, 12:53:44 pm »

Sell your Black Dragon, Devourers, Parasites, Dusk Mantle and Nightfall, in order to buy 18 Air pillars and 5 Unstable Gas. Add those to your deck.
Sell all your Aether cards and all the remaining Darkness cards except 3 Obsidian Pillars (your deck should have 30 cards by now), and buy 1 Unstable Gas and 3 Azure Dragons.
Replace them for your last 3 Obsidian Pillars and Dagger, and you are done.

I added a spoiler in the end of my post from above, take it a look.

I asked how, not if it was possible. Either way you told me how, so I thank you.

PS: You could have added that explanation to your original spoiler. (I hope you have by now, since you already told me how you did it.)

I am making it for all the elements right now, to avoid people selling first the pillars and trying to buy the most expensive cards first
Done
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 01:20:26 pm by Chapuz »
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Offline omegareaper7

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1082560#msg1082560
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2013, 04:20:05 pm »
Hate to nitpick, but in the life section, it says to sell dark cards when the life starter has fire.
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Offline ChapuzTopic starter

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1082615#msg1082615
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2013, 07:36:55 pm »
Hate to nitpick, but in the life section, it says to sell dark cards when the life starter has fire.
Read the first table, there it is said that in every case the best starter deck is Darkness for every element.
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Offline freeyourmind

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Re: Deckbuilding 101: From Noob to Platinum Slayer https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49513.msg1084729#msg1084729
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2013, 08:25:00 pm »
hey chap...me again just letting you know in your dark deck(you should end with this)it should be 3 dragon and 5 devour
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