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Offline sunyataTopic starter

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My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg475931#msg475931
« on: March 30, 2012, 06:42:47 pm »
Deck Helper comment: 
This deck was posted before the 1.32 game update and as a result may work very differently now.  Use at your own risk.

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Just been trying out this new deck against plat.  Early results are looking good.  Ok, I've only played 6 games so far, but 6/6 wins with 2 special spins and a 5199  :electrum EM against zso_zso's previously unbeaten number 1 deck make this look like great grinding material.  Main problem is it's pretty boring to play, so I probably won't stick with it for long.

Might experiment with swapping out some  :rainbow towers for  :earth
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 01:24:42 am by willng3 »
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Offline Newbiecake

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg475934#msg475934
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2012, 06:54:40 pm »
Very interesting. Similar to Zen. Let me try to EM from top tier decks. XD

Btw I think Poison Deadly Poison would be a better card cuz it can get past reflecting shields as well. Also, SoSa doesn't eat up  :death.

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Maybe 2 Stone Towers in place of 2 QTs?
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Offline sunyataTopic starter

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg475936#msg475936
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 06:57:45 pm »
Very interesting. Similar to Zen. Let me try to EM from top tier decks. XD

Btw I think Poison would be a better card cuz it can get past reflecting shields as well.
Thought about poison, but a lot of decks stack lots of purity currently, but reflecting shields seem less common.  Maybe could remove a pillar and put in poison plus siphon?
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Offline Newbiecake

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg475942#msg475942
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2012, 07:02:16 pm »
I'm thinking of one or two Precognitions to help you scry what the AI is hiding in its deck while you SoSac to see it can burst you below 40 HP when you break your SoSac chain (which is necessary to buy you more turns). I've always like my version of SPlat where I took out 1 Scorp and Unstoppable for 2 Precogs.

Changes:
-1 Tower, -1 PA, +1 Precog

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Yay just EM'ed Sevs for 5.2k gold. ^.^
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Offline AnnaMall

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg475996#msg475996
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2012, 09:32:39 pm »
Doesn't deck out vs 150+hp decks?
 Tried sometime ago something similar, 30 cards were offering good void chances, but the hp amount of plat decks made decking a danger every game. More cards resulted in less voids early with again the same problem. You guys dont face that situation often?

Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg476001#msg476001
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2012, 09:40:05 pm »
Cool deck and congrats on your win  ;)

You could have trouble against decks that start with high HP and also have some divinity / stone-skin to counter your voids.
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Offline Newbiecake

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg476016#msg476016
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 10:23:01 pm »
Doesn't deck out vs 150+hp decks?
 Tried sometime ago something similar, 30 cards were offering good void chances, but the hp amount of plat decks made decking a danger every game. More cards resulted in less voids early with again the same problem. You guys dont face that situation often?
Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me a bunch of times. If you don't see at least 2 Voids in your initial hand against high HP decks you're done.
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Offline sunyataTopic starter

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg476059#msg476059
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2012, 12:10:02 am »
Doesn't deck out vs 150+hp decks?
 Tried sometime ago something similar, 30 cards were offering good void chances, but the hp amount of plat decks made decking a danger every game. More cards resulted in less voids early with again the same problem. You guys dont face that situation often?
I've rarely found deck-out as the loss mechanism.  Most usual reason for a loss seems to be not having a SoSac when you need it.  Almost always the OTK isn't ready until the last few cards of your hand.  Therefore, its really important to use the Sods and sosacs v carefully to make sure you survive to the end.

I just did some quick statistics in a spreadsheet on SoV damage.  With 6 SoVs in a 30 card deck, the average (mean) amount of 'damage' done by SoVs is 254, and the most common amount of damage was in the range 260-270.  Only 12% of the time was the total damage before deck out less than 200.  On no occassion out of 100 trials was the damage less than 150 (the lowest was 153).
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Offline AnnaMall

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg476188#msg476188
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2012, 09:13:52 am »
*pulling sleeves up, readying to revise my opinion* ;D

Really believed in that combo, so I'll be back with some more stats

Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg476527#msg476527
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2012, 02:00:58 am »
Player
Wins: 13
I have tried it in the simulator against level 5 AI (200HP, triple mark, double draw, all upped), so something very similar to platinum arena:
http://xenocidius.allalla.com/simulator/

This is the result I got from 100 games:

Winrate: 13 %
Average TTW: 20.53846153846154
EMs: 12
EM rate: 92.3076923076923 %

Computer
Wins: 87
Winrate: 87 %
Average TTW: 22.195402298850574
EMs: 87
EM rate: 100 %

So this does not look like a very high win ratio...
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Offline sunyataTopic starter

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg476718#msg476718
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2012, 01:56:12 pm »
Player
Wins: 13
I have tried it in the simulator against level 5 AI (200HP, triple mark, double draw, all upped), so something very similar to platinum arena:
http://xenocidius.allalla.com/simulator/

This is the result I got from 100 games:

Winrate: 13 %
Average TTW: 20.53846153846154
EMs: 12
EM rate: 92.3076923076923 %

Computer
Wins: 87
Winrate: 87 %
Average TTW: 22.195402298850574
EMs: 87
EM rate: 100 %

So this does not look like a very high win ratio...
I certainly haven't managed to maintain the high winrate I saw from my first games, but I'm still experimenting with tweaking the deck, so I haven't started collecting any formal winrate stats yet until I have a stable version I'm happy with.  I will say that my winrate is well above 13%, though (prob closer to 50%).  Playing this deck is a finely balanced game of judgement, so I don't think the AI could play it very well in the simulator, hence the much lower success rate.  The absolute key to playing this deck is staying alive for 20-24 turns.  SoDs/Sosacs are not alone sufficient to guarantee you can do this.  To boost your chances of managing this requires careful judgement on when to play SoSacs. 

There are basically two ways in which this deck can lose.  (1) opponent has so many SoD/GS that you cannot bring their HP below 3.  This will also occur if opponent has mindgate and gets your SoDs.  Against opponent like this it is an automatic quit.  (2) You can't play a SoSac when you need to.  This can, of course, happen for any number of reasons. E.g. You were forced to play them all early and ran out; you did not draw one in time; Your HP dropped below 40 (because opp wittled you down with small attacks, you didn't draw enough sods or you just drew your last sosac too late).

There don't seem to currently be very many decks in plat at the moment which cause a type 1 loss (although, of course if this deck ever became popular, that would change overnight), so I'm thinking mainly about how to reduce the probability of a type 2 loss.  I.e ways to improve chances of staying alive long enough for otk.  Ideas for this I've played with so far inlude:

Adding a shield to deck.  In general, shields are considered to work poorly with sosac because they reduce the amount of healing you can get.  I'm not convinced, however, that this is a firm rule. Ways that shields might help are

a) a shield that lasts a few turns can keep you alive just long enough for sosac to do the rest.  This could be dim shield (a bit too expensive though, so may require a  :aether pillar to support); wings (too many winged creature for this to work reliably however); diss shield (not enough qt in deck to power this for long, but could last a couple of turns); bones (this works well with sosac 'cos you're most likely to have the quanta for it.  Downside is that it might not last more than one turn which only makes up the lost draw incurred by including it in the deck.  I've tried mixing this with a plague timed so that opp.s creatures die when bonewall is up, but so far not git this to work reliably);

b) a shield that reduces damage might be useful in later stage of game by increasing number of turns you can wait between playing sosac.  But, the best of these shields are prob too expensive to be able to play when you need them.

Also experimented with earlier suggestion of a putting a precog in deck.  Didn't seem to help much, but might try it again.

I'll post again once I've got more experience with how and if it is possible to make this deck really reliable.  Also any suggestions about how to improve it gratefully received.
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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: My latest plat grinder https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37911.msg476723#msg476723
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2012, 02:12:11 pm »
Try this or some variant on the number of sundials:

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I suggest sundials because they help in 2 ways:
1. it can add an extra turn of stalling (blocking all creature damage)
2. it can also help you pull the next SoSac you need

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