5th Trials - Phase 3 - Community Vote

[bogtro]

To all competitors: With the recent nerfs to Fire, where do you believe Fire ranks in terms of raw element strength? Where do you feel it ranked beforehand?

@Youngsot and agentflare: Suppose these nerfs to Fire were undone. Do you feel you could effectively lead a Fire team to the dominant performances it had?

[agentflare]

agentflare
You can't change the upped cards in your deck during War after the deckbuilding phase has ended.

Um...ok?

Remember during a round last War when you tried to change your upped cards?

Actually no. I don't remember. I'm sorry, but if I did, I don't remember -.-

To all competitors: With the recent nerfs to Fire, where do you believe Fire ranks in terms of raw element strength? Where do you feel it ranked beforehand?

@Youngsot and agentflare: Suppose these nerfs to Fire were undone. Do you feel you could effectively lead a Fire team to the dominant performances it had?

1. I believe that in terms of Mono-power, Fire is 3rd or 4th, but in a duo-environment, it's way down at 6th or so. Why? Well Fire no longer is super dominant in the metagame, no all Fire mark arena decks sweeping the standings (replaced by Novabows), but it's still very strong with heavy CC and high damage to back it up, but duos are needed to supplement Fire's needs (Immo fodder and healing/turn). I believe that other elements synergize stronger and are more dominant in a duo setting. Fire is a bit of a two trick pony (it isn't but meta-game wise, there is no other commonly used Fire deck).

2. Oh goodness, I don't know. I know the standard answer that a politician should give is "Of course. Here's what I would do", but I don't know if I can truthfully say that. So much of War and other Pvp things come down to RNG. I believe that I wouldn't contribute as much as people I bid on.

what element do you think is the most uncooperative with fire and why. also what would you do diffrently that will bring fire back into the top 3 for next war. please also show me a deck that is powerful that doesnt require firebolt/immolation/pheonix/farenheight and it must be 50% fire.

1. Life. It has no synergy with Fire whatsoever. Frogs eh? Fire has faster. Heal? Pff... why? Adrenaline? On what fire card? Fire is faster anyways.
2. I'm supposed to outline a plan of action, but really I don't believe that in the limited deckbuilding realm of War, that Fire is super competitive like  or or I think that Fire will have to be more rainbow to win, using Immo-nova Domins or rushes.
3. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL This deck is pretty inconsistent, but soooo fun to play.

by agentflare

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[willng3]

Fire is indisputably an Element of destruction that has led numerous people to question whether or not Fire should act as a stalling Element or as an Element bent on plowing through any opposition.  But I'd like to ask something hopefully a bit more thought provoking:

Q:  The amount of control, particularly creature control, that Fire possesses is tremendous.  I suspect that only the newest of players are unaware of the raw power the dreaded Firestall possesses.  But despite the amount of control that is exhibited by this Element alone, there are remarkably few ways of actually protecting oneself from control period, especially when many types of control are so cheap.  Do you believe that the effects of control within the game is possibly too great?  If you were to nerf control in one way that would not significantly imbalance the metagame, what would you change?

[~Napalm]

1~ Q: “If the ‘Phoenix’ card never existed, would you feel that Fire would be up to par today? Would you still be just as interested in the element without it?”

~This is quite a perplexing question. Phoenix completed Fire like no other card could ever hope to. There is no question that Fire was a powerful element before Phoenix was introduced, but the card quickly propelled the element as a whole above all else. The added stability to speedy decks coupled with the destructive nature of the stalling sources rounded it out and left very little room for weakness. As a result, Fire became "overpowered" because it was the only "complete" element and eventually brought about some nerfing due to the daunting nature of completing every element in a short period of time. These nerfs have hurt Fire a good deal and I still blame Phoenix for them. Who knows, if Fire was still a "fragile" element offensively, we'd could be without nerfs. It's possible that without Phoenix, other powerful cards may have been added by this time. It's hard to say whether or not Fire would be "up to par today" without Phoenix, but there is no question that with or without it, it is a powerful element. Though it could be said that without it, in the current meta, with the Fire nerfs, Fire would be quite a bit less powerful.
~Honestly, I'm not sure if I can answer this. It is true that I have always been drawn to Fire in its many forms, even before playing Elements. Fire in its purest form has always intrigued me, in the many games I've played, my path of choice has always been Fire when it's available, and most importantly, the Phoenix has always been my favorite mythical creature. Phoenix and consequently vNG is the single solitary reason that I became enamored with Elements enough to join the community. I'm sure it's no secret that Phoenix has and always will be my favorite card. It is hard to imagine what my choices would have been given the opportunity to bond with it. Had there never been a Phoenix, there might never have been a ~Napalm.

2~ Let's suppose Immolation/Cremation is a  card (yup, it's meant to be other but it still gives fire quanta). Could you build a %50 Fire deck with it? Could you create a Celsius weapon that could be equipped with Fahreneit? (Holding two weapons at once, no shield). What's the scent of fire?

~Oh very easily. In fact, the deck I helped created nearly 2 years ago would fit this requirement, including the more recent modification.
~Oh I suppose I could easily enough, but do you want me to?
~The scent of fire is what we want it to be. To me, the scent is warmth and comfort; light and guidance; happiness and joy; company and friendship. The scent of fire cannot be detected by our sense of smell, as that is not fire but the aroma of what is being burned, it can only be felt.

3~ Q:"Fire started very bad this war, and didn't ended up in top 3, you think it's because the nerfs or the teams adapted and countered fire?"

~Personally, I think it's neither, but at the same time an extension of both. As I'm arguably the most qualified to answer this question, I would say that the Fall of Fire was caused by how I reacted to each of your points. There were many bad choices that lead to poor performance, a few of which were adapting to the nerfs and coping with the other teams. Furthermore, Fire only ended as high as it did because of the Events of Rounds 4 and 8. However, moving from last to 5th (by placing rules in the last round) is not a feat that many elements can duplicate, with or without those rounds.

4~ People have said you took the Fire nerfs way too seriously, describe how each of the 4 changes affected Fire in last War. How did these changes adversely affect other elements as well?

~Well, I guess I can start off by saying that as Fire is my elemental livelihood, it was to be expected that I'd be displeased with Fire nerfs. I must also admit that I tend to overreact rather than calmly consider the facts, in most cases. However... these were serious changes, especially in a War setting. The Ash nerf allowed Phoenixes to be killed much easier, which is a big blow. I don't think other teams cared much at all really. Deflagration didn't really effect us very much I doubt there were many cases where 1 would change the outcome.However, many upgrades in Rainbows suddenly became Explosions to compensate. I would have to say that Immolation was the hardest hit. That one additional quanta in an Immo deck makes a ton of difference. We saw less of these from other teams this time as well, meaning less chances to salvage them. These two changes also made it more difficult to upgrade things as well. Where Fire could previously focus on upgrading other support cards, these became options that needed to be considered as well. The most notable effect is that ImmoPhoenix became exclusive to the General and Lieutenant and even then wasn't as powerful as previous versions. And finally, the quanta cap. This certainly made stalls a lot less comfortable. Not being being able to rely on excessive quanta to eventually cause people to drop dead was not a comforting thought. Stalls for other elements felt the same way I would say. However, more than each of these changes individually was how I reacted to them in Vault and Deck Building. Simply having the nerfs caused me to second guess myself big time often resulting in the wrong decisions being made.

5~ Demonstrate how much you like "~" in the form of two haikus.

~I was going to make word art in the shape of squiggles for this, but I couldn't ever make it work right. So let's just pretend these are squigglified!

Without my Squiggly~
I would only be a word~
You make me much more~

Squiggly, my Squiggly~
How I love you my Squiggly~
You are part of me~

6~ So basically I just want to know how you are going to lead to victory next war and why you will be the best to lead. Also if you don't plan on leading War let me know this as well.

~Hmmm. Again with the War-related insight. If I didn't know any better, I'd call you a spy! I take it you're politely questioning my ability to devote enough time to leading Team Fire again? In all reality, I've never been a big contributor to the forums, but I did take a break from the community for about a Month. This was due to many of the same reasons kirch is no longer the Master of Earth as well as some personal matters. So yes, it is true that I do have a lot going on. However, I don't think I can bring myself to permanently leave the community in the near future. It has become too much a part of who I am to simply walk away. That being said, there is no better way to lead than by example. I plan on doing just that. Devoting the time that is necessary to plot and plan; create and test; revise and refine. The key is finding the right followers that are also willing to be leaders. I cannot say that I would be the best to lead, but I think I've done fairly well in the past. I learned from my mistakes last War and, with any luck, I can do better this time. And as for not planning to lead... well I think I made it clear that I do plan on it. I don't see a reason not to. If for whatever reason it does turn out that I cannot, it will probably be time to step down for good.

7~ What element do you think is the most uncooperative with Fire and why. Also what would you do diffrently that will bring Fire back into the top 3 for next war. Please also show me a deck that is powerful that doesnt require Fire Bolt/Immolation/Phoenix/Fahrenheit and it must be 50% Fire.

~Uncooperative in what sense? I'm assuming you mean hardest to work with, such as in making a Duo. In this sense, I think my answer will be Entropy. In my opinion, Entropy doesn't have very much to offer Fire. Sure, you can make use of some of the cards, but nothing really synergizes very well. The best I could come up with was Antimatter Stall or splashed in Chaos Power. Every other element has at least one appealing combination with a fair amount of synergy, with the exception of Life. Life and Entropy don't pair well with Fire except that they can offer healing. However, Life can get along with Fire a lot more than Entropy can get along with Fire, so I feel that Entropy is the least cooperative. Fractix, Gasses, Rage Dolls, Immo Catcher, Lava Rush, Firemasters, Heal Bolt, Raging Angels, Dial Bolt, and Steamies are just one example of each pair, though some have more viable options than others; Aether, Air, Earth, and Light for example.
~Well, I can't really tell you what I'd do differently other than learn from my mistakes last time. If I tell you TOO much more, I might decrease my chances! However, without getting into too much detail I can say a few things. One, I will spend more time planning BEFORE the last minute, which is a flaw of mine. Two, I will make an effort to be less predictable, which has been an issue for me. This includes some "new" decks!  And three, I will never allow myself or my team to surrender. We will take home the victory or fight to the last card trying.
~As for the deck, here's one that I was messing around with for a bit. I took the liberty of fully upgrading it, which makes almost any deck powerful . Of the remaining choices, a deck built around Lava Destroyer seemed the best. Without Phoenixes, some defense seemed pertinent so I added some Armor and Elixirs. Turned out to be a lot like Hermes really, lol.

by ~Napalm

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8~ With the recent nerfs to Fire, where do you believe Fire ranks in terms of raw element strength? Where do you feel it ranked beforehand?

~Well I guess that depends on what you're refering to. In a Mono setting, I think Fire is still among the most powerful. In a face-off, Death is probably still the only element to continually take down Fire. Several of the other Elements would surely be a challenge, but clearly possible. Side by side, Fire has oodles of "raw power" when compared to other elements. Entropy and Death seem to be up there as far as "raw power" goes, but many of the other elements can keep stride to due powerful defensive capabilities. In a Duo setting, I might suggest the same thing. Even if Fire isn't duoing with another element, many elements can utilize Fire to create powerful Duos. The versatile nature of Fires cards allows it to duo in more places than many other elements. However, there are certain Duos that are quite a bit more powerful than many duo combinations with Fire. As far as the "raw power" aspect though, I feel that Fire is still high up at the top simply because of the broad nature of it's abilities.
~Before the nerfs? I think it is reasonable to say that if it wasn't the most powerful element, it was certainly among the most powerful. Fire Bolt and Fahrenheit enjoyed a power all their own and Immolation paired so nicely with Phoenixes that it almost wasn't right to team them up. I don't like making concrete statements about "ranking" the elements though so I hope this is sufficient. However... I will say this: Fire is the best!

9~ Q:  The amount of control, particularly creature control, that Fire possesses is tremendous.  I suspect that only the newest of players are unaware of the raw power the dreaded Firestall possesses.  But despite the amount of control that is exhibited by this Element alone, there are remarkably few ways of actually protecting oneself from control period, especially when many types of control are so cheap.  Do you believe that the effects of control within the game is possibly too great?  If you were to nerf control in one way that would not significantly imbalance the metagame, what would you change?

~I wonder if maybe control is not too powerful, but rather too common? There are many forms of control that we have to consider. Creature Control, Permanent Control, Quanta Control, and Hand Control(?). I would say there are five different forms of Creature Control. Area of Effect (Thunderstorm, Pandemonium, Fire Storm, etc.), Removal (Thunderbolt, Shockwave, Rage Elixir, etc.), Debilitation (Lobotomizer, Congeal, Antimatter, etc.) Multi-use, and Shields. Permanent control is more difficult to categorize, so I'll just list them. Steal shifts ownership of the permanent, Deflagration is a single-use removal of a permanent, Shockwave is a form of combo removal with Ice Lance or Congeal, while Butterfly Effect and Pulverizer are multi-use removal. Quanta Control is also rather specific. Quicksand is an instant Generation removal, Poseidon is multi-use Generation removal, while Pests leech quanta, Discord scrambles quanta and Black Hole consumes quanta to heal. Hand Control includes Prevention (Silence), which stops cards from being played and Draw Locking (Rewind, Eternity, Nightmare), which prevents the enemy from drawing cards and in the case of Ghostmare, causes damage if they discard the wrong cards. Certain cards overlap some, such as the Shockwave/Congeal combo or Rewind. PC can also be used to control Quanta, etc. It seems to me that the effect of removing something, be it creatures, permanents, or quanta, can swing many games one way or another. This is in large part because once it's removed, it's removed. There is no way to get it back. Now, I'm not sure why this is. It could be that coding would have been too much of an issue, it could have been that having a returning effect would be too similar for Zanz's liking, or any number of other things. Regardless, removing things that threaten you cannot be undone, which is a very powerful tool in any game. The softer forms of control are generally much easier to overcome. For example, a shield can be stolen or destroyed. The shield is a softer form of control that can be overcome by the more rigid forms. It is my opinion that we could increase the emphasis on softer control at least partially by introducing new cards, but possibly by modifying some of the existing forums of rigid control. Adding a "Graveyard" is another possibility that would open up all kinds of possibilities, but I personally tend to turn away from this option. Alternatively, we could simply introduce more ways to protect oneself from control. There is a relatively small number of that in the game currently. Quintessence, Enchant Artifact, Sanctuary, Cloak, and Momentum some of the only ways to protect your cards currently, but of them, only Enchant Artifact or the combination of Momentum and Quintessence are infallible. My personal opinion is that of the latter. Without building the Great Wall of China out of text... these are my thoughts on the matter. Hopefully they're thoughtful enough for you.

10~ What are the first 3 things you think of when you think of the Fire Element? Most of Fire's in-element defenses refer to destruction and damage. Do you feel there is a more defensive or passive side of Fire that exists in ETG's theme, or all Fire decks going to involve large amounts of damage one way or another?

~Honestly... I think of Bambi. When I was but a wee little girl, that was my favorite movie of all time. For those of you that never had a childhood, Bambi is the story of a deer and its life in the forest. He makes friends with the other animals, endures harsh winters, loses his mother to hunters, and even fights for a mate. In the end the animals have to flee from a forest fire that leaves a path of unimaginable damage behind it. Even the fire cannot stop new life from springing forth as the forest is reborn. I also tend to think of a Wizard. Fireballs are fun to throw at things . And then of course there are Phoenixes and, to a lesser extent, Dragons. It's always fun to think about mythical creatures, especially fiery ones!
~No. I do not think there is a more defensive or passive side of Fire that exists in ETG to date. However, I wish there was. At the present, nearly any Fire based deck is going to have to involve unimaginable amounts of destructive force simply because the other side doesn't exist. If one day we get a lot more cards I wish we could see similar mechanics in different forms which would allow for some of the ideas that could fit into the more passive side of Fire. Currently these ideas fit more in other elements instead.

[YoungSot]

Additional questions answered in my first post (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36645.msg491212#msg491212).
More coming soon!

[xdude]

With lack of time and will stoping her in the Masters' Trials, Napalm needs a boost to be able to compete in the final battle. Also she is the current (ex?) Grandmistress.

[~Napalm]

Hey now. I don't NEED it. But it would surely help! 

[YoungSot]

All questions thus far answered. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,36645.msg491212#msg491212)
Thanks to everyone that asked, I enjoyed the questions!

[ZephyrPhantom]

Question 1:
What are the first 3 things you think of when you think of the Fire Element?

Question 2:
Fire's defensive methods have been elaborated on several times on the forum, with a few discussions about Fire's aggressiveness and theme supposedly coming into conflict.
Most of Fire's in-element defenses refer to destruction and damage. Do you feel there is a more defensive or passive side of Fire that exists in ETG's theme, or all Fire decks going to involve large amounts of damage one way or another?

[agentflare]

Question 1:
What are the first 3 things you think of when you think of the Fire Element?

Question 2:
Fire's defensive methods have been elaborated on several times on the forum, with a few discussions about Fire's aggressiveness and theme supposedly coming into conflict.
Most of Fire's in-element defenses refer to destruction and damage. Do you feel there is a more defensive or passive side of Fire that exists in ETG's theme, or all Fire decks going to involve large amounts of damage one way or another?

1. There's a mental image for me of a lava golem emerging from a flame.

2. Personally, thematically it's all about destruction for me. The defensive side of fire comes from the other elements causing moderation. The sort of Fury that the outside world sees, but inside the Elemental is a sea of calm.