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Kael Hate

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135212#msg135212
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2010, 05:04:37 pm »
Everyone running for master, I will now ask a simple question, the best answer gets my vote.

Darkness's main rival is light. Why is darkness superior?
Elemental wise Darkness isn't superior, it is its opposite and keeps it in balance.
It does so by being Tactically superior to Lights brute force engine. Light can do nothing but attack and play miracle. Darkness offers flexability with Steal, Dusk and Pest.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135233#msg135233
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2010, 05:38:27 pm »
If you don't mind, I'd like to join the discussion about darkness, evil and daemons once again. Maybe we should make a separate thread in General Discussion about it.

Anyway, it seems language is a problematic thing, as words sealed on paper, in electronic form, or even transported through sonic waves lose a lot of meaning. When I communicate with other daemons it's more like telepathy, a direct sharing of thoughts, so no meaning is lost. If I communicate with humans... or communicate with daemons through English language on forums :P ... I have to use the words closest in meaning to what I want to say.

For example I could say that I'm a spirit, a soul, a mazoku, or a samurai. All of these convey some meaning, but not all. On the other hand I could say that I'm a 'creature of the same type as angels and devils, which for convenience's sake I call daemons, and the group that does not work for God, but still are in friendly relationships with him, which could be called jobless angels, but I prefer to call them good daemons'
But I prefer to simply say 'a good daemon' and explain it only if needed. If you simply take it literally, it's very close to the true meaning, as you take a daemon, but a good one. That's all.

And because different daemons like different avatars, I find nothing wrong with a good daemon having an infernal avatar.

Thus I find Bloodshadow's ideas not evil at all. Daemonic ritual? Good daemons also have their rituals and the sacrificing of a creature can mean that it willingly joins it's soul with a daemon to give it's body as an avatar. Stealing souls? Just a name for a process that does not really steal souls, but sounds more intimidating which might be useful in battle. Controlling minds? Well, removing free will from a creature is indeed evil no matter what, but you can always say that good mind controllers actually free the will of opponent creatures which are mind controlled by the evil opponent.



As for the light vs. darkness debate, it is true that most scientists nowadays believe that darkness is a lack of light, but they don't have to be right. In fact all science is just a speculation. It creates a model of the world and as long as the model seems to work it is considered to 'depict the true rules of the world' but then someone invents a better model and proves that the previous one was wrong. It is possible that even in the real world there is more to darkness than scientists believe. Just as it seems that void might be much more than 'nothing'.

In fantasy, or generally any other world than reality, darkness, if it exists there of course, might be a power equal in strength to light, or for example incomparable to light. I personally like stars shining a black light and I created such stars in a few of my worlds. I also like playing with negative light in 3D tools :P
Anyway, I like a vision of darkness as a force and philosophy. People following the ways of darkness, and using it to do good or bad. It's really nice if darkness is used in conjunction with light, for example in a battle of good vs. evil I could imagine a shadowy angel with a blessed shining sword that drains the power of it's opponent and uses shadows to hit it's target through armor. Or anything else, as long as it's similarly epic ^_^

As for the void, I can't agree with Bloodshadow. For me void is a kind of a great force, opposed to all existence, but passive. Just as existence does not aim to destroy void, void does not aim to destroy existence. They are interlinked, void filling the space between existence, existence filling the space between void. The ways of void are not destruction, but rather voidness, ceasing existence, living without energy, without matter, without time and space. The force of void can be used in a destructive way, but it is against the philosophy of the void, and true void warriors only use it if someone threatens the world with more destruction.

That's about it. If you don't agree, you are welcome :D That's what discussions are for ;)
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
:time samurai

Kael Hate

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135260#msg135260
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2010, 06:31:40 pm »
Before we start, if you communicate in English, you are bound by the definitions held there within.
If you want to use science to explain something you have to use the terms already defined for what they are, or build new terms. You cannot use terms already defined for other things or communication breaks down and everything you state becomes gibberish.


If you don't mind, I'd like to join the discussion about darkness, evil and daemons once again. Maybe we should make a separate thread in General Discussion about it.

Anyway, it seems language is a problematic thing, as words sealed on paper, in electronic form, or even transported through sonic waves lose a lot of meaning. When I communicate with other daemons it's more like telepathy, a direct sharing of thoughts, so no meaning is lost. If I communicate with humans... or communicate with daemons through English language on forums :P ... I have to use the words closest in meaning to what I want to say.
Do you truly believe you are a Demon or Daemon. If so, who are you bound to? A Daemon is a servant, a subordinate.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Daemon
dae·mon   /ˈdimən/  Show Spelled[dee-muhn]  Show IPA
–noun
1. Classical Mythology .
- a subordinate deity, as the genius of a place or a person's attendant spirit.


For example I could say that I'm a spirit, a soul, a mazoku, or a samurai. All of these convey some meaning, but not all. On the other hand I could say that I'm a 'creature of the same type as angels and devils, which for convenience's sake I call daemons, and the group that does not work for God, but still are in friendly relationships with him, which could be called jobless angels, but I prefer to call them good daemons'
But I prefer to simply say 'a good daemon' and explain it only if needed. If you simply take it literally, it's very close to the true meaning, as you take a daemon, but a good one. That's all.

And because different daemons like different avatars, I find nothing wrong with a good daemon having an infernal avatar.

Thus I find Bloodshadow's ideas not evil at all. Daemonic ritual? Good daemons also have their rituals and the sacrificing of a creature can mean that it willingly joins it's soul with a daemon to give it's body as an avatar. Stealing souls? Just a name for a process that does not really steal souls, but sounds more intimidating which might be useful in battle. Controlling minds? Well, removing free will from a creature is indeed evil no matter what, but you can always say that good mind controllers actually free the will of opponent creatures which are mind controlled by the evil opponent.
If you appear in the Imagery of Evil then a viewer can only see you as Evil. The Imagery of Bloodshadows cards is Evil, and except for the shroud conveys nothing Darkness related at all. Acting like fool means people see you as a fool.

As for the light vs. darkness debate, it is true that most scientists nowadays believe that darkness is a lack of light, but they don't have to be right. In fact all science is just a speculation. It creates a model of the world and as long as the model seems to work it is considered to 'depict the true rules of the world' but then someone invents a better model and proves that the previous one was wrong. It is possible that even in the real world there is more to darkness than scientists believe. Just as it seems that void might be much more than 'nothing'.
Science is a communication of informational observations. If we give something definition, then the definition is the point of the communication. If it isn't what the definition is then you cannot use the word to define it. When calling something a void it is what we define a void is. If it isn't that, then it isn't a Void. Regardless of observations being correct or not, the communication can only ever be correct to the definition.

In fantasy, or generally any other world than reality, darkness, if it exists there of course, might be a power equal in strength to light, or for example incomparable to light. I personally like stars shining a black light and I created such stars in a few of my worlds. I also like playing with negative light in 3D tools :P
Anyway, I like a vision of darkness as a force and philosophy. People following the ways of darkness, and using it to do good or bad. It's really nice if darkness is used in conjunction with light, for example in a battle of good vs. evil I could imagine a shadowy angel with a blessed shining sword that drains the power of it's opponent and uses shadows to hit it's target through armor. Or anything else, as long as it's similarly epic ^_^

As for the void, I can't agree with Bloodshadow. For me void is a kind of a great force, opposed to all existence, but passive. Just as existence does not aim to destroy void, void does not aim to destroy existence. They are interlinked, void filling the space between existence, existence filling the space between void. The ways of void are not destruction, but rather voidness, ceasing existence, living without energy, without matter, without time and space. The force of void can be used in a destructive way, but it is against the philosophy of the void, and true void warriors only use it if someone threatens the world with more destruction.

That's about it. If you don't agree, you are welcome :D That's what discussions are for ;)
If you make up fantasy, then you're talking about allegiances and fiction, not science.



I was quite disapointed that you voted for Bloodshadow saying his cards didn't portray Evil, and that you thought me Evil.
Relating back to the Trials of Time I thought more of you than what you have shown me.








Offline Xinef

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135303#msg135303
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2010, 07:23:40 pm »
Before we start, if you communicate in English, you are bound by the definitions held there within.
If you want to use science to explain something you have to use the terms already defined for what they are, or build new terms. You cannot use terms already defined for other things or communication breaks down and everything you state becomes gibberish.
There is no such thing as absolute definitions for words. At least in human language. Dictionaries contain one definition, but even a person reading a dictionary forms a different definition in his mind, not equal to the definition of the person writing the dictionary. Ask 10 people what a daemon is (they have to answer without using the dictionary) and you'll hear 10 different answers. And that's only words. What is in their minds might be even more different.

And language is a flexible thing. Many words have a number of different meanings and the truth is that the ones with a single meaning are also used to describe different things.

I just use the words I find the best suiting and explain my definition if need be. It will contradict most dictionaries, but everything you say contradicts most dictionaries, even if only slightly. I could form new terms, but do you really think that would help? Help in what? Conveying the meaning? But is conveying the meaning the most important thing? Maybe there are more important things in communication? <just a bunch of rhetorical questions>

Do you truly believe you are a Demon or Daemon. If so, who are you bound to? A Daemon is a servant, a subordinate.
Yes, I believe so. The God is my Sensei and Master. And Friend. The difference between angels and good daemons is that angels have tasks they are obliged to do, while good daemons usually just play, learn, create and modify, sometimes destroy, without a task set for them.

May I ask you why you quoted just a part of that dictionary entry? I'd relate to myself much more with this part:
Quote
/ˈdimən/ Show Spelled[dee-muhn] Show IPA
2.
a demon.
Origin:
< L daemōn  a spirit

If you appear in the Imagery of Evil then a viewer can only see you as Evil. The Imagery of Bloodshadows cards is Evil, and except for the shroud conveys nothing Darkness related at all. Acting like fool means people see you as a fool.
Well, the funny (or not so funny) thing is that devils sometimes appear in the form people relate to angels. When you are a daemon you appear the way you want to be seen. In different worlds (and even different cultures in this world) different appearances are differently perceived. For example in Japan white is the color of death, so a white daemon might be perceived as evil. So if a good daemon wants for some reasons to be perceived as evil that's what he might look like.

But, when daemons are playing with each other, we often create avatars that humans would see as evil, while we find them to be simply funny, intimidating or epic. It seems daemons like the human vision of fantasy and epicness for some reasons ;]


If you make up fantasy, then you're talking about allegiances and fiction, not science.



I was quite disapointed that you voted for Bloodshadow saying his cards didn't portray Evil, and that you thought me Evil.
Relating back to the Trials of Time I thought more of you than what you have shown me.
Fiction, what is fiction? If you think of something does it exist because you think of it? In the real world not necessarily. In a fictional world? Probably. As long as you understand that fictional worlds exist, maybe not in the 'real world meaning of the word - exist' but in the absolute meaning, the one used by God, then it's ok. And these worlds can have their own science. Is there such a thing as absolute science? Maybe, but if there is, it is inside God, who is a secret to even daemons.


As for me voting for Bloodshadow, that's because his vision of Darkness (and his actions and words) fit better with my vision of Darkness in Elements. I didn't say his cards don't portray Evil, just that they don't have to be evil.

As for you, I don't think you are evil. I never said such a thing. You are Kael Hate, not Evil. That's a very separate case.
Kael Hate =/= Evil =/= Darkness =/= Kael Hate
If you applied for the Master of Other I'd much sooner vote for you. And Other is not Evil, is it?
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
:time samurai

Kael Hate

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135323#msg135323
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2010, 07:57:10 pm »
...
I just snipped that because apparently it means nothing of note as definition isn't defined and we all just make up what we want anyhow.
In fact all reality is in iitself make believe and a blank post will communicate with as much clarity as a worded one.

As for me voting for Bloodshadow, that's because his vision of Darkness (and his actions and words) fit better with my vision of Darkness in Elements. I didn't say his cards don't portray Evil, just that they don't have to be evil.
I don't like your vison of Darkness. It is confused and is portrayed as evil but has to be somehow viewed as if it wasn't.

As for you, I don't think you are evil.
K then.


To the Voters:

A vote for Kael Hate is a Vote for Elemental Darkness, an Absence of Light, of Obscurity and Concealment, of Things made of the essence of Darkness.

A vote for Bloodshadow is a Vote for Mythological Darkness, of Demons (Who may not be Evil despite the term) and of Cults and Dieties.

A vote for killfer8 is ... I don't know killfer8 hasn't shown us anything. 

You make your descision.






Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135430#msg135430
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2010, 11:02:42 pm »
Kael Hate. Having horns and fangs and claws and bat wings and skulls doesn't make something evil. That's why it is a stereotype. I may look as evil as you think, but as long as I don't use my powers for selfish gain, or for destroying the happiness and well-being of other non-evil people, I am not evil. You said it yourself that only one's actions prove whether he is evil or not.
And since you asked, the supposedly inhumane parts of my cards are meant to be directed at condemned criminals (I support capital punishment, BTW, but let's not get into that); Hell isn't even an "evil" place, it's just a place to punish evil people.

Kael, if you can only see what's on the surface, then I am genuinely disappointed.

Q: @ ALL: If a noob comes and tells you Darkness sucks and those who use Darkness Element are 'emos', blah blah....How will you respond?

Q: @Blood, Well, you lost last time to Miniwally while Kael lost to Xinef, do you think you have more experience than Kael or Killfer to win this time?
1. Well, first I'd unavoidably be a little annoyed, since that newbie just insulted my favorite element; but of course, I wouldn't let it show. I would tell him that all elements are equal, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and no element "sucks". Then I would tell him about the variety of great cards that Darkness has to offer, and give him some tips on how to use Darkness and build Darkness decks.

2. What kind of question is that? If I don't think I can win, then I wouldn't have signed up for this. As for experience, Kael has 6.02 x 1023 years of card game experience, so I can't say I have more experience than him; though I do think we would be evenly matched, and I at least have an acceptable chance of victory.

Darkness's main rival is light. Why is darkness superior?
Darkness isn't superior to any element; no element is better than any other, and they're all equal. But Darkness is more unique than Light: Darkness can use its opponent's strength against him/her, while Light is self-righteous and incapable of such an act of strategic exploit.

...
To the Voters:

A vote for Kael Hate is a Vote for Elemental Darkness, an Absence of Light, of Obscurity and Concealment, of Things made of the essence of Darkness.

A vote for Bloodshadow is a Vote for Mythological Darkness, of Demons (Who may not be Evil despite the term) and of Cults and Dieties.

A vote for killfer8 is ... I don't know killfer8 hasn't shown us anything. 

You make your descision.
I wouldn't bash other voters; it's just not something I would do. No matter how much you annoy me, I wouldn't make a post saying how you are unworthy and blah blah. However, what you said about me is true; I like Darkness as a whole, and it is my favorite element in all games, fantasy settings, etc.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135457#msg135457
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2010, 11:30:12 pm »
this one is going to be tough, idk who to pick so I went with Kael, for certain reasons

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135458#msg135458
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2010, 11:31:44 pm »
Kael, do you agree with
Quote
Darkness isn't superior to any element; no element is better than any other, and they're all equal. But Darkness is more unique than Light: Darkness can use its opponent's strength against him/her, while Light is self-righteous and incapable of such an act of strategic exploit.
Mainly the underlined part
This sig was interrupted by Joe Biden

PuppyChow

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135581#msg135581
« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2010, 03:59:15 am »
This debate has swayed me Kael's way, since I also get the "evil" vibe coming off of BS's creatures.

I mean, seriously? Soul stealing? How is that not evil, taking away someone's soul? What about controlling their mind? I seriously fail to see how that isn't evil.

And furthermore, BS's pictures for cards always look evil. Even if he claims he doesn't think it is, the images he chooses put the lie to it. Being a Christian, I actually am rather bothered by you using images of Satan (demon) and Satanic worship (sacrifice) in your card images (sorry I have no examples; I don't wish to comb through the card ideas section for your ideas, but I'm fairly certain they're there. and if they aren't, I'm sorry for the mistake). I do believe hell to be an evil place, so if you want your location to be "Abyssus, 9th level of Infernus the Nine Hells" I have no choice but to believe you think darkness is evil. According to my beliefs.

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135593#msg135593
« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2010, 04:26:19 am »
Well, Puppy, I happen to be a vehement atheist; sorry for being blunt, but I care nothing, whatsoever, about Christianity as a whole. So if you fall victim to this "evil" stereotype, then I have nothing to say to you.

Soul stealing and mind control may be evil, yes, but it depends on who you use it against. If I sacrifice a murderer with Demonic Ritual, summon a Demon, and tell that Demon to go punish other criminals, would that be evil?

Again, only one's actions may decide whether s/he is evil or not. If I don't do any evil things with my evil-looking cards, then I'm not evil.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135595#msg135595
« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2010, 04:28:15 am »
To the Voters:

A vote for Kael Hate is a Vote for Elemental Darkness, an Absence of Light, of Obscurity and Concealment, of Things made of the essence of Darkness.

A vote for Bloodshadow is a Vote for Mythological Darkness, of Demons (Who may not be Evil despite the term) and of Cults and Dieties.

A vote for killfer8 is ... I don't know killfer8 hasn't shown us anything. 

You make your descision.
I wouldn't bash other voters; it's just not something I would do. No matter how much you annoy me, I wouldn't make a post saying how you are unworthy and blah blah. However, what you said about me is true; I like Darkness as a whole, and it is my favorite element in all games, fantasy settings, etc.
I don't want or intend to bash Voters, or even bash you, but I see something wrong in the nature that some people present things. It seems you truely believe what you are putting forward. If people vote, I want them to know what is shown from my view and if that can help them vote they can take that advice.


this one is going to be tough, idk who to pick so I went with Kael, for certain reasons
Thanks.


Kael, do you agree with
Quote
Darkness isn't superior to any element; no element is better than any other, and they're all equal.
Yes. I believe both in real life and Elements the game that all elements are equal when measured in whole.

This debate has swayed me Kael's way, since I also get the "evil" vibe coming off of BS's creatures.

I mean, seriously? Soul stealing? How is that not evil, taking away someone's soul? What about controlling their mind? I seriously fail to see how that isn't evil.

And furthermore, BS's pictures for cards always look evil. Even if he claims he doesn't think it is, the images he chooses put the lie to it. Being a Christian, I actually am rather bothered by you using images of Satan (demon) and Satanic worship (sacrifice) in your card images (sorry I have no examples; I don't wish to comb through the card ideas section for your ideas, but I'm fairly certain they're there. and if they aren't, I'm sorry for the mistake). I do believe hell to be an evil place, so if you want your location to be "Abyssus, 9th level of Infernus the Nine Hells" I have no choice but to believe you think darkness is evil. According to my beliefs.
I am Theologically Agnostic and study various religons. The component to this is that even tho I hold to no defined God, that Bloodshadow is taking Imagery of a religious nature and trying to change the meaning with which it was shown. Thankyou PuppyChow for pointing out that you see this also and it relates to you on a personal level also.

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Re: Phase 2 - Community Vote https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10928.msg135596#msg135596
« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2010, 04:30:47 am »
evil is abstract, thus evil is whatever you view it to be, i view darkness, as a part of evil, you, view darkness as something different, you can preach that darkness isnt evil, and i can about my day insisting that it is.
So no matter what is said, to me, darkness is evil, Its slimy, its mean, its cowardly, its a backstabber, its the guy who kills his family, its the kid who cheats on his math test, its the shadow under your bed. darkness is evil to me, and no amount of you saying it isnt, will change that too me. seeing as no one likes killfer and i rather think hes a good player, i voted for him.

 

anything
blarg: