Phase 2 - Community Vote

[Bloodshadow]

Not choosing sides in this argument, but...actually it does. From a scientific standpoint darkness is only a lack of light. Of course, it becomes so much more here in Elements

What is the state of the universe before light existed?

absent of light.

What gave light the "right" to be the "norm"? Everything is relative, and there is no absolute.

defined as Evil  by our lanuage

There's the problem. Remember that I'm Chinese, and I'm heavily influenced by Chinese fantasy settings.

And don't try to use the dictionary to convince me; there are probably a lot of things in there that I don't agree with.

[Kael Hate]

defined as Evil  by our lanuage

There's the problem. Remember that I'm Chinese, and I'm heavily influenced by Chinese fantasy settings.

And don't try to use the dictionary to convince me; there are probably a lot of things in there that I don't agree with.

Well if you comunicate in English but make up your own definitions for everything how can anyone hope to understand what you mean? This is an english forum and you live in an English speaking country, is it not plausible that if you state something in english you want to know what it is that you are saying?

You have said that you are going to study science and physics as tertiary education but you are going to choose and ignore the terms defined by language when as a scientist you have to communicate knowledge using terms people can understand.

[Korugar]

OK, if we go there, this will turn into a theological discussion in the wrong place. However, to answer your question...you're assuming there was a universe without light. I don't know what your exact opinion of how the universe came into being is, but many have light being there from the beginning. Even if they don't, I'm not sure what difference that makes. How dark something is, does not depend on how much darkness there is, it depends on how much light there is not.

Or, to put it much shorter, what kills said.

It's good to see some people who understand language and science.

Thank you.

Not choosing sides in this argument, but...actually it does. From a scientific standpoint darkness is only a lack of light. Of course, it becomes so much more here in Elements

What is the state of the universe before light existed?

absent of light.

What gave light the "right" to be the "norm"? Everything is relative, and there is no absolute.

Wrong. I think it's scientifically accurate to compare the relationship between light and dark to the relationship between hot and cold. Temperature is a measure of the vibrations of atoms/molecules. What we consider cold, still includes a certain measure of heat. In the same way, what we consider to be dark, still has a small amount of light in it. True, unlike temperature, it isn't impossible to reach "absolute zero light"(to paraphrase a term), but that doesn't change the fact that darkness is not a thing in and of itself. You cannot have dark and light together, right? Whenever you add light, you lose darkness. You cannot add darkness, just remove light. Am I being unclear?

[Bloodshadow]

Well if you comunicate in English but make up your own definitions for everything how can anyone hope to understand what you mean?

If you fail to interpret my correct, intended meaning, then I correct you, of course. Definitions are often somewhat loose, so people don't fail to understand me all that often.

And people, keep in mind that this isn't science. Elements is a fantasy game. Maybe Darkness is the absence of Light in real life, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in a fantasy game.

Lastly, I'm a bit tired of this debate.

[BluePriest]

There can be darkness without light. Darkness is anywhere there isnt light. Darkness doesnt require something to exist. It is absence, but before light existed, how could it be the absence of light? There was no light, so there was nothing for it to be absent of. I would have to say that i disagree that it is purely the absence of light. There has always been darkness. That is a fact. No one can say there has always been light 100%. Darkness is the precursor, so it cant be defined by the definition of something that came after it.

it would be like me saying Im "BluePriest I", and I am the Father of "BluePriest II" before "BluePriest II" ever existed.

[Korugar]

That's why I put the "In elements darkness takes on a whole new meaning"(or something like that) in my first comment. I wasn't trying to turn it into a debate. I wasn't even trying to get a real response. I was simply reading as a comment had been made, felt like posting on the off chance someone would be confused by your comment, and then would have forgotten about it. That's all.

There can be darkness without light. Darkness is anywhere there isnt light. Darkness doesnt require something to exist. It is absence, but before light existed, how could it be the absence of light? There was no light, so there was nothing for it to be absent of. I would have to say that i disagree that it is purely the absence of light. There has always been darkness. That is a fact. No one can say there has always been light 100%. Darkness is the precursor, so it cant be defined by the definition of something that came after it.

it would be like me saying Im "BluePriest I", and I am the Father of "BluePriest II" before "BluePriest II" ever existed.

...aaand I want to go to bed, so I'm going to let someone else respond to that...

[Glitch]

Look, the fact of the matter is, the darkness = absence of light isn't how it's used in game.

This debate is quite a simple one.  Can good people do evil things?  And the answer is yes.  Just because you are dark doesn't mean there is no light.  Shadows are more defined with light nearby, aren't they?  Yin Yang shows all darkness has light.   The element of light is all about being righteous.  Angels, golden dragons, it's all about being holy.  Darkness is about doing what you have to.  Screw the rules, that dragon of yours is trying to kill me, I'll steal it's health now.

The question eventually falls to this:  Can good people do bad things?  Can you be both a demon and a good person?  Do you stop being a demon if you are a good person?  Is the same true of devils?

And the answer is yes.  Good people can do bad things.  Using evil doesn't make you evil.  Being dark doesn't make you evil.  It just makes you dark.  Science can't help debate a morale issue.  Darkness ≠ evil.

[Demagog]

Look, the fact of the matter is, the darkness = absence of light isn't how it's used in game.

This debate is quite a simple one.  Can good people do evil things?  And the answer is yes.  Just because you are dark doesn't mean there is no light.  Shadows are more defined with light nearby, aren't they?  Yin Yang shows all darkness has light.   The element of light is all about being righteous.  Angels, golden dragons, it's all about being holy.  Darkness is about doing what you have to.  Screw the rules, that dragon of yours is trying to kill me, I'll steal it's health now.

The question eventually falls to this:  Can good people do bad things?  Can you be both a demon and a good person?  Do you stop being a demon if you are a good person?  Is the same true of devils?

And the answer is yes.  Good people can do bad things.  Using evil doesn't make you evil.  Being dark doesn't make you evil.  It just makes you dark.  Science can't help debate a morale issue.  Darkness ≠ evil.

That's what they are basically both saying. But Kael says BS's cards are evil, not because they are darkness, but because of what they are. So it's like BS is applying an evil theme to the cards he creates for darkness, even though he says darkness does not mean evil.

I'm pretty sure I recalled that correctly anyway.

[Kael Hate]

That's what they are basically both saying. But Kael says BS's cards are evil, not because they are darkness, but because of what they are. So it's like BS is applying an evil theme to the cards he creates for darkness, even though he says darkness does not mean evil.

I'm pretty sure I recalled that correctly anyway.

Yes, that is what I am saying.

[Bloodshadow]

I did not consciously try to apply an "evil" theme when making any of my cards. But if you still think they have this "evil" theme, then I can't do anything except saying you're wrong.

[Kael Hate]

I did not consciously try to apply an "evil" theme when making any of my cards. But if you still think they have this "evil" theme, then I can't do anything except saying you're wrong.

Of the the artworks you chose for your supposed Non-Evil Demons, why are they all Infernal in nature?

If you claim that its a mistranslation of Chinese to English, why not use the Chinese name and Imagery? I'm sure there are Yaoguai and Guai images around.

Also have to laugh for someone spouting not to be evil, to have their current location set to "Abyssus, 9th level of Infernus the Nine Hells ", what are you lost? a child? confused? all of the prior?

[Bloodshadow]

I'm sure there are Yaoguai and Guai images around.

Completely wrong. The "demons" in my world are "魔族", literally "demon race". What you said should be translated as "djinn", "goblin", or something like that; I consider them to be "less" than "demons".

And you know what? I don't even consider Abyss and Hell to be evil. To me they're just supernatural realms aligned with Darkness. And no, I don't consider Hell to be fiery at all. The Chinese counterpart to "hell" would be "魔界", literally "demon realm".