(Darkness) Kael Hate 3 - (Time) Xinef 1

[Kael Hate]

Game 1
Accidentally copied over my game 1 deck code, so not exactly sure what it was. It sucked and lost.
0-1

Game 2

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7t8 7t8 7t8 7ta 7tb 7tb 7tb 7td 7td 7td 7td 7td 7tf 7tf 7tf 7tf 7to 7to 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um1-1

Game 3

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7t8 7t8 7t8 7ta 7tb 7tb 7tb 7td 7td 7td 7td 7td 7tf 7tf 7tf 7tf 7to 7to 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um2-1

Game 4

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7t4 7t8 7t8 7t8 7ta 7tb 7tb 7tb 7td 7td 7td 7td 7td 7tf 7tf 7tf 7tf 7tf 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um 7um3-1

[Xinef]

Game 1 and 4:

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5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q3 7q3 7q4 7q4 7q4 7q4 7q5 7q5 7q8 7q8 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri
Game 2:

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5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q1 7q1 7q3 7q3 7q4 7q4 7q4 7q4 7q8 7q8 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri
Game 3:

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5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 5rm 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q3 7q3 7q3 7q4 7q4 7q4 7q4 7q8 7q8 7q8 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri
Banned cards: Steal and Pharaoh

To defeat Darkness, I had to deal with 3 problems:
- In mono Time creature damage is the only possible winning condition. It's impossible to deck out without healing (no SoGs allowed ;( ), while stalling + control by itself is not enough. Dune Scorpions are useless in mono, while Deja Vu, Scarabs and Anubises are very weak without duo (even with off-element mark). That leaves dragons, pharaohs and fate eggs for damage. Darkness can lobotomize Pharaohs and Fate Eggs with Liquid Shadow. Thus I had to either ban LS, or hope he doesn't ban Dragons. Even if I banned LS, he could play Darkness Nymphs + Cloak (to counter rewind) and thus Dragons are my only real option for offense.
- If I didn't ban steal, it would be as if I banned Eternity, Turtle Shield and Hourglass for myself.
- There is nothing Time can do against the powerful Vampire Stiletto + Hax Shield combination. Add Vampires, as even if rewound each turn, they can still heal and deal some damage... if he manages to set up this simple, cheap, 2 card combo, I'm screwed. I'd have to ban either stiletto or hax shield.

As you can see, I could solve either the second problem, or partially solve the third, or hope to partially solve the first. Hard choice... anyway, I'm surprised he didn't ban dragons.

In those 3 games I lost, it was because he managed to set up the Stiletto + Hax Shield combo... so it seems the third problem was serious... but the one game I won was thanks to Eternity. If I didn't ban steal that win would be much less probable.

So... my conclusion... gratz Kael Hate on great games. I hope the rules will be less imbalanced against Time next Time.

[xdude]

Come on Kael, now beat up GG and meat me in the semifinals  8)

[guy_fawkes]

nice job Boss

[Dragoon]

Interesting analysis Xinef.  I also think this probably needs to be adjusted next time for fairness sake.

[Kuroaitou]

Argh. Two of my most favorite masters having to fight against each other like this. I can't choose sides like this...

But congratulations to Kael, and I'm sorry about that Xinef - I didn't realize all of the new advantages Darkness has over Time, but I'm still rooting for you in the loser's bracket!

[10 men]

It's impossible to deck out without healing (no SoGs allowed ;( )

Yeah, Time needs some healing of its own. Time heals all wounds after all, right? (Hint for a possible card design competition)
Then we can also finally nerf SoG into oblivion where it belongs.

[The_Mormegil]

It's impossible to deck out without healing (no SoGs allowed ;( )

Yeah, Time needs some healing of its own. Time heals all wounds after all, right? (Hint for a possible card design competition)
Then we can also finally nerf SoG into oblivion where it belongs.

... Can do.

EDIT: what about something like this (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18896.new.html#new)?

[xdude]

I see 2 problems here:

• Time is not a well-rounded element. It lacks healing and a middle attacker. This is more of a game design problem though, even if one that can be remedied slightly by the rules.
• Bad planning, from step one. Xinef wasted his ban. Let's see what Steal could've stolen in this particular matchup:
  • Eternity. I think we can all see how it's a bad idea to replace a Vampire Dagger with and Eternity
  • Hourglass and Turtle Shield. Mainly these are no good to KH, so he wastes 3 quanta, while Xinef wastes 4.  However, this is considering both Xinef has played the permanent and KH has the Steal ready. If KH has the Steal but Xinef not the perm, it's Xinef who has the upper hand, as KH has one useless card. If Xinef has the perm, but KH not the Steal (more likely, considering you CAN have more than 6 permanents in deck) it's, again, the Time Master in advance.

I shall detail more on this after my match with KH, but those are mostly my thoughts.

[Memorystick]

I see 2 problems here:

• Time is not a well-rounded element. It lacks healing and a middle attacker. This is more of a game design problem though, even if one that can be remedied slightly by the rules.
• Bad planning, from step one. Xinef wasted his ban. Let's see what Steal could've stolen in this particular matchup:
  • Eternity. I think we can all see how it's a bad idea to replace a Vampire Dagger with and Eternity
  • Hourglass and Turtle Shield. Mainly these are no good to KH, so he wastes 3 quanta, while Xinef wastes 4.  However, this is considering both Xinef has played the permanent and KH has the Steal ready. If KH has the Steal but Xinef not the perm, it's Xinef who has the upper hand, as KH has one useless card. If Xinef has the perm, but KH not the Steal (more likely, considering you CAN have more than 6 permanents in deck) it's, again, the Time Master in advance.

I shall detail more on this after my match with KH, but those are mostly my thoughts.

Well... last Trials, Xinef made it clear what his thoughts were... (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12229.msg175103#msg175103)

It's probably easy to guess what kind of cards I usually fear the most - permanent destruction - because it ruins time control decks and counters Hourglasses, Eternity, SoG, shields and Sundials. Thus I decided to ban most PC cards, except Pulverizer (would require a trio deck and can be countered with eg. steal before it uses it's ability even once), Poseidon (once again trio, and a weak one), and possible mutants (weak against rewind).

(tried to reconstruct the link thing from xdude's quote, but I couldn't figure out the date part :[)

[xdude]

I see 2 problems here:

• Time is not a well-rounded element. It lacks healing and a middle attacker. This is more of a game design problem though, even if one that can be remedied slightly by the rules.
• Bad planning, from step one. Xinef wasted his ban. Let's see what Steal could've stolen in this particular matchup:
  • Eternity. I think we can all see how it's a bad idea to replace a Vampire Dagger with and Eternity
  • Hourglass and Turtle Shield. Mainly these are no good to KH, so he wastes 3 quanta, while Xinef wastes 4.  However, this is considering both Xinef has played the permanent and KH has the Steal ready. If KH has the Steal but Xinef not the perm, it's Xinef who has the upper hand, as KH has one useless card. If Xinef has the perm, but KH not the Steal (more likely, considering you CAN have more than 6 permanents in deck) it's, again, the Time Master in advance.

I shall detail more on this after my match with KH, but those are mostly my thoughts.

Well... last Trials, Xinef made it clear what his thoughts were... (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,12229.msg175103#msg175103)

It's probably easy to guess what kind of cards I usually fear the most - permanent destruction - because it ruins time control decks and counters Hourglasses, Eternity, SoG, shields and Sundials. Thus I decided to ban most PC cards, except Pulverizer (would require a trio deck and can be countered with eg. steal before it uses it's ability even once), Poseidon (once again trio, and a weak one), and possible mutants (weak against rewind).

(tried to reconstruct the link thing from xdude's quote, but I couldn't figure out the date part :[)

Yes, we all know Xinef loves his permanents. I just think he overestimated Steal.

[Xinef]

• Bad planning, from step one. Xinef wasted his ban. Let's see what Steal could've stolen in this particular matchup:
  • Eternity. I think we can all see how it's a bad idea to replace a Vampire Dagger with and Eternity
  • Hourglass and Turtle Shield. Mainly these are no good to KH, so he wastes 3 quanta, while Xinef wastes 4.  However, this is considering both Xinef has played the permanent and KH has the Steal ready. If KH has the Steal but Xinef not the perm, it's Xinef who has the upper hand, as KH has one useless card. If Xinef has the perm, but KH not the Steal (more likely, considering you CAN have more than 6 permanents in deck) it's, again, the Time Master in advance.

Ok... so let's assume I banned Vampiric Dagger instead. Kael Hate takes steals instead and steals my Eternities to get a weapon for himself
So let's ban Dusk Mantle instead... oh wait, he steals my Turtle Shields.

So, if I ban Vampiric Dagger, I shouldn't take Eternity. If I ban Dusk Mantle, I shouldn't take Turtle Shields. In both cases his Vampires would be a much bigger threat.

And don't forget, one of the possibilities is to steal Eternity then play Vampiric Dagger on top of it.