8th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback

[Vangelios]

well I believe the bug is because of antimatter. but the question is, how duels will be treated in this situation?

[Higurashi]

That's fair since you got a result that showed the same HP total on both sides in the end. Then there's no inherent problem with this seemingly only visual bug.

The question that then remains is: does it cause desynch bugs? I'm headin' to bed, so anyone feel free to test.
Oh, also observe the nature of the bug. Sometimes you get a desynch symbol without any actual effect, and sometimes you get consistent bug results that don't affect the game.

[ARTHANASIOS]

CuCN and I tested the AM dimshield bug. It was pretty clear what the intended effect was supposed to be, thus the final decision.

to sum up briefly, what I think I remember:
Bug works when u use it vs AI. But if AI were to use it against you, it doesn't work. So if you play against a real opponent, one player will see one effect and the other will see a different effect. For one player, the HP constantly reset as if the creature did not bypass the shield (even tho it appeared to do so and poison marker was added), and for the other player the creature never bypassed the shield and the HPs never reset after each turn. Thus, it was determined that the effect of AM to bypass shields is a bug.

I'm sure someone will be confused by this, so if you have questions, then just test it out yourself.

I respect both you and CUCN as Warmasters, but the fact the hp resets is totally irrelevant; let me try to explain it to the community...

Spoiler for TL DR:

My personal experience is that Antimatter-Dim bug ALWAYS cause a desynch between a PvP match; I just do not know if it is always detected. But even if it is detected, I am pretty sure it can't be automatically fixed because the game's code in this area it just wrong!

In order to understand this, let's say we have two classes-objects: "my" which reffer to the player (first-person perspective) and "opponent" which reffer to the opponent of the player (third-person perspective).
Let's say we have the following boolean variables (boolean = they can either be TRUE or FALSE): Antimattered, which is TRUE if the creature has negative attack and FALSE if its attack is positive, and Dim_Bypass, which indicaters whenever a creature's attack bypass Dims (TRUE) or not (FALSE).

When you play with AI, things are easy; the human player is the object "my" and the AI is the object "opponent". Personal experience of playing versus the AI reveals the following:


If (my.Antimattered=TRUE) then my.Dim_Bypass=TRUE;
If (my.Antimattered=FALSE) then my.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;

If (opponent.Antimattered=TRUE) then opponent.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;
If (opponent.Antimattered=FALSE) then opponent.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;


(I really think Zanz, while coding EtG's Antimatter-Dim relation, he forgot to replace the opponent.Dim-Bypass to TRUE instead of FALSE)



Now, while this wrong coding has no (serious) effect against the AI (because we have to deal with a single PC and a single running instance of the programm), if 2 human opponents face each other (here we deal with two PCs and two running instances of the programm that exchange info) things are really complicated.
Since they exchange info, they have to exchange variables too. However, while Player A is the "my" object and Player B is the "opponent" object in Player A's PC, thing are reversed in Player B's PC, where Player A is the "opponent" object and Player B is the "my" object.
In online PvP, that means each PC produces the "my"-related variables and recieves the "opponent"-related variables from the opponent's PC.



PlayerA.opponent.variable = PlayerB.my.variable;
PlayerB.opponent.variable = PlayerA.my.variable;




Let's say that Player A's creature is Antimattered. This is going to have the following effects in each person's PC.

Player A's PC:

my.Antimattered=TRUE;
my.Dim_Bypass=TRUE;

Player B's PC:

opponent.Antimattered=TRUE;
opponent.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;

And here is the issue; they both recognize the Antimatter condition, but only Player A's PC recognize its "right" to bypass Dims because Player B's PC treats Player A like an AI opponent.


Now, let's say that Player B's creature is Antimattered. This is going to have the following effects in each person's PC.

Player A's PC:

opponent.Antimattered=TRUE;
opponent.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;

Player B's PC:

my.Antimattered=TRUE;
my.Dim_Bypass=TRUE;

And here is the same issue once again; they both recognize the Antimatter condition, but only Player B's PC recognize its "right" to bypass Dims because Player A's PC treats Player B like an AI opponent.


But why do we have the hp reset desynch issue?

Because the game is coded in a way that, if either the PlayerA.my.variable == PlayerB.opponent.variable or the PlayerA.opponent.varialbe == PlayerB.my.variable conditions are not met, a desynch error occurs and it tries to fix those with various ways (if these conditions are not equal, then each player plays its 'own game' with 'its own rules' if you know what I mean and that's what pretty much happens in the Antimatter Vs Dim case).
One of the ways EtG use to solve desynchs is to re-recieve the values from the other computer by replacing the value of the PlayerA.opponent.variable with the value of the PlayerB.my.variable or the value of the PlayerB.opponent.variable with the value of the PlayerA.my.variable, even if the new value is game-wisely mistaken!

In our case, we have the player A with the antimattered scorpion taking the same amount of damage from Player B in both Player A's and Player B's PCs (so the PlayerA.my.variable == PlayerB.opponent.variable is true) while Player B with the Dim Shield takes far less damage in Player B's game than it takes at Player A's game (so the PlayerA.opponent.varialbe == PlayerB.my.variable is false).
In other words, that causes the PlayerA.opponent.health == PlayerB.my.health argument to be false for Player A, so the program tries to replace the PlayerA.opponent.health variable with the PlayerB.my.health variable (PlayerA.opponent.health = PlayerB.my.health;). Because of this, Player A may see his opponent's health rise for an instant in order to meet Player B's game.

[rob77dp]

CuCN and I tested the AM dimshield bug. It was pretty clear what the intended effect was supposed to be, thus the final decision.

to sum up briefly, what I think I remember:
Bug works when u use it vs AI. But if AI were to use it against you, it doesn't work. So if you play against a real opponent, one player will see one effect and the other will see a different effect. For one player, the HP constantly reset as if the creature did not bypass the shield (even tho it appeared to do so and poison marker was added), and for the other player the creature never bypassed the shield and the HPs never reset after each turn. Thus, it was determined that the effect of AM to bypass shields is a bug.

I'm sure someone will be confused by this, so if you have questions, then just test it out yourself.

I respect both you and CUCN as Warmasters, but the fact the hp resets is totally irrelevant; let me try to explain it to the community...

Spoiler for TL DR:

My personal experience is that Antimatter-Dim bug ALWAYS cause a desynch between a PvP match; I just do not know if it is always detected. But even if it is detected, I am pretty sure it can't be automatically fixed because the game's code in this area it just wrong!

In order to understand this, let's say we have two classes-objects: "my" which reffer to the player (first-person perspective) and "opponent" which reffer to the opponent of the player (third-person perspective).
Let's say we have the following boolean variables (boolean = they can either be TRUE or FALSE): Antimattered, which is TRUE if the creature has negative attack and FALSE if its attack is positive, and Dim_Bypass, which indicaters whenever a creature's attack bypass Dims (TRUE) or not (FALSE).

When you play with AI, things are easy; the human player is the object "my" and the AI is the object "opponent". Personal experience of playing versus the AI reveals the following:


If (my.Antimattered=TRUE) then my.Dim_Bypass=TRUE;
If (my.Antimattered=FALSE) then my.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;

If (opponent.Antimattered=TRUE) then opponent.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;
If (opponent.Antimattered=FALSE) then opponent.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;


(I really think Zanz, while coding EtG's Antimatter-Dim relation, he forgot to replace the opponent.Dim-Bypass to TRUE instead of FALSE)



Now, while this wrong coding has no (serious) effect against the AI (because we have to deal with a single PC and a single running instance of the programm), if 2 human opponents face each other (here we deal with two PCs and two running instances of the programm that exchange info) things are really complicated.
Since they exchange info, they have to exchange variables too. However, while Player A is the "my" object and Player B is the "opponent" object in Player A's PC, thing are reversed in Player B's PC, where Player A is the "opponent" object and Player B is the "my" object.
In online PvP, that means each PC produces the "my"-related variables and recieves the "opponent"-related variables from the opponent's PC.



PlayerA.opponent.variable = PlayerB.my.variable;
PlayerB.opponent.variable = PlayerA.my.variable;




Let's say that Player A's creature is Antimattered. This is going to have the following effects in each person's PC.

Player A's PC:

my.Antimattered=TRUE;
my.Dim_Bypass=TRUE;

Player B's PC:

opponent.Antimattered=TRUE;
opponent.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;

And here is the issue; they both recognize the Antimatter condition, but only Player A's PC recognize its "right" to bypass Dims because Player B's PC treats Player A like an AI opponent.


Now, let's say that Player B's creature is Antimattered. This is going to have the following effects in each person's PC.

Player A's PC:

opponent.Antimattered=TRUE;
opponent.Dim_Bypass=FALSE;

Player B's PC:

my.Antimattered=TRUE;
my.Dim_Bypass=TRUE;

And here is the same issue once again; they both recognize the Antimatter condition, but only Player B's PC recognize its "right" to bypass Dims because Player A's PC treats Player B like an AI opponent.


But why do we have the hp reset desynch issue?

Because the game is coded in a way that, if either the PlayerA.my.variable == PlayerB.opponent.variable or the PlayerA.opponent.varialbe == PlayerB.my.variable conditions are not met, a desynch error occurs and it tries to fix those with various ways (if these conditions are not equal, then each player plays its 'own game' with 'its own rules' if you know what I mean and that's what pretty much happens in the Antimatter Vs Dim case).
One of the ways EtG use to solve desynchs is to re-recieve the values from the other computer by replacing the value of the PlayerA.opponent.variable with the value of the PlayerB.my.variable or the value of the PlayerB.opponent.variable with the value of the PlayerA.my.variable, even if the new value is game-wisely mistaken!

In our case, we have the player A with the antimattered scorpion taking the same amount of damage from Player B in both Player A's and Player B's PCs (so the PlayerA.my.variable == PlayerB.opponent.variable is true) while Player B with the Dim Shield takes far less damage in Player B's game than it takes at Player A's game (so the PlayerA.opponent.varialbe == PlayerB.my.variable is false).
In other words, that causes the PlayerA.opponent.health == PlayerB.my.health argument to be false for Player A, so the program tries to replace the PlayerA.opponent.health variable with the PlayerB.my.health variable (PlayerA.opponent.health = PlayerB.my.health;). Because of this, Player A may see his opponent's health rise for an instant in order to meet Player B's game.

rob: You're a lucky man, ARTH.

'ARTH': How so?

rob: You're talking to one of [the few] men in the [EtG-verse] capable of following that train of thought.

'ARTH': Well, what do you think?

rob:  I said I could follow it, I didn't say I [could solve it].

[Higurashi]

It's easy to grasp, but conjecture gets us nowhere. My experience is that the desynch is visual only and neither the turn nor the final outcome is affected, but again we need current screenshots and testing by staff before considering a new solution. If it results in timing out, that'd be problematic enough too.