7th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback

[ddevans96]

Both guildmasters told me they would decline any application that only included one element, that all applications have to have at least 2 elements selected, and that asking to be placed only in a certain element would not guarantee being placed in that guild, due to their method of putting teams in guilds fairly.

Element loyalty has nothing to do with guilds.

In fact, it also has nothing to do with war, because you can't choose the team you're on, unless you ban the other 11 elements, in which case you're overly expensive and might not even be chosen by that general. The only loyalty bonus should be trials.

[RavingRabbid]

Suggestion to the participants.

My Trial Overseer cents about lack of Phase 1.
I tried to come up with decent and creative tasks for Phase 1, and all was bad.
Also, in my previous experience, Phase 1 was just "have time, make points", which put almost everybody on the same level.

Now we don't have a Proving of Worthiness anymore. What do we have?

Phase 3.

In phase 3, try to not win it as a simple popularity contest, make it be your proving of worthiness.

Actions speak louder than words

[Onizuka]

My thought process on Phase 1:

I came into TrOship thinking that there would be a Proving of Worthiness.

I read past suggestion threads. At least in last one, there was a mix of pro and anti Phase 1. But there had been a 'Proving of Worthiness' in recent trials. So I created a Phase 1. Was it perfect? No. Was it good? Up to the person. Did I think it was good? Maybe, depending on how one part of it went. Would it actually fit 'Proving of Worthiness' to the people who are looking for Phase 1 to be that? No. I highly doubt it. It was probably just a same old Phase 1 that just proves activity. And it would probably be complained about again, for varying reasons.

And then there was brawl. Brawl, ultimately for this conversation, is a Phase 1 long term team event with voting. If trials was to start early June, then it either starts during brawl (what happened) or starts immediately/soon after brawl starts. And if there's a 'Proving of Worthiness', what about the people in Brawl? Isn't it just seemingly another round for them, where they might have to do a task for a group they didn't sign up for? And the fact that they'd have to do basically two rounds in one round if they wanted to be in trials and brawl (if it started during brawl). Neither of these made it seem like doing a 'Proving of Worthiness' was a good idea.

So I moved on to the idea of not having a Proving of Worthiness.

It lets the Brawl members not have to do more work. It still won't be a 'Proving of Worthiness'. It lets me not use my meh idea.

Sounded great to me.

If someone suggests a way in that Phase 1 actually becomes a way for people to prove their worthiness as a Master then it sounds great and would probably make it's way into next trials. Hell, next trials might have a proving of activity if people decide they rather have one and hate the idea of just a signup for Phase 1. Especially if it doesn't overlap with Brawl at that point. In which, unless a better idea comes around, the meh idea that I thought of this trials may come back for next.


Non-master Generals will be retaining the Soldier points this trials. This may change for future ones.  Q: If a soldier rises to general mid war and they come up near the top, what happens? Who gets what points (assuming there is still a division in points for the MasterGeneral and the soldier)?

I don't see why masters should be judged on placement and not the soldiers as well. I don't agree on loyalty points for being on the war team. Teams that get lower on the ranking should not get bonus points for being on the team. Not to mention no practical way to secure a place on the team you'd want to be loyal. No, banning every element but one is not a practical way. And asking the general to bid on you does not secure a place on it.


But being treated equally. Does this mean that both Masters and Challengers should get the same amount of points for War placement? Thoughts people?

War bonus points are a combination of achievement & loyalty bonus (ultimately less actual loyalty to an element more to the element of the war team you were on), so they aren't strictly a loyalty bonus (like trials bonus).


Guilds generating loyalty points: No. Not yet at least. I'd at least like to see guilds grow more before re-considering this. At current time I agree that trials are the only thing that will award loyalty points. I also want Guildmaster clarification on the ability of people to have joined a specific guild at the start and the current ability now to switch to a guild that they rather be in if they didn't start in the one they wanted to, and the planned switching ability in the future. (I hope a guildmaster sees this so I don't have to bother looking for them : P)


More Trials Loyalty points: I don't think this is a particularly good idea. I thought 3 was a good number. Half the amount of previous trials and not too much of an advantage over people who didn't participate in trials/that elemental trials before. Even disregarding the first part (half amount), I think 3 is a good amount. Too much and it becomes too much of an advantage for people who were here before, possibly allowing to overcome the Phase 1-2 points (even if thy count only if they get to the final battle, can still have the situation where master doesn't defend and only 2 challengers). So I think 3 is a good number, maybe 4. But 3 for this trials.


Also, I'm horrible at not talking till after a phase.

[MyNameIsJoey]

I agre now that i re-think about it ahtat 3 loyalty points is enough.

As for phase 1, I think the lack of proving of activity is great, I agree old phase 1 = brawl's job now, but i dislike the lack of a phase 1. I'm trying to think of a way to add a new, better phase 1, i'll re-post here when I find it.

And thanks oni for TrOing, i don't think anyone meant to criticize your job.

[Jen-i]

Perhaps proving of worthiness is simply you making a post declaring why you are worthy of being master - seems simple and straight forward to me - kind of like propaganda but for Trials. Actually propaganda for Trials would be awesome!!.

As to loyalty points - here's my suggestion.

Loyalty Bonus is for Challengers only
War Record Bonus is for Master's only

You then just have to weight the points so that it doesn't provide too much of a swing to one side or the other.
Perhaps something simple like this - and then provide 1 point per trials for each challenger.

Ranking	Points
War Winner	6
1st Loser	4
2nd Loser	4
3rd Loser	3
Remaining Losers	1
12th Place Super Loser	-1

[MyNameIsJoey]

<+ji412jo> I think phase 1 should be something that is not so easy to make, but not so time consuming. Have some small, but fun challenge , different for each element, in all of them.
<+ji412jo> Example : for fire, have a screenshot of highest fahrenheit damage done in a turn against an FG

Also, i think loyalty points should count in registration, i.e. when you count points to kick people out, loyalty should come into play.

[MyNameIsJoey]

Give points for doing it, and give points for who got the biggest damage, in that example.

[Elbirn]

In phase 3, try to not win it as a simple popularity contest, make it be your proving of worthiness.

Anything with a public vote will always be nothing more but a popularity contest.

Also, i think loyalty points should count in registration, i.e. when you count points to kick people out, loyalty should come into play.

But then the possibility of newcomers challenging for master-ship = non existent.

[MyNameIsJoey]

In phase 3, try to not win it as a simple popularity contest, make it be your proving of worthiness.

Anything with a public vote will always be nothing more but a popularity contest.

Also, i think loyalty points should count in registration, i.e. when you count points to kick people out, loyalty should come into play.

false. Take for example if kuro had not done any previous time trials. he still has 5 / 5 points, for a total of 10 and he's still totally in the trials for more points and more posts.

But then the possibility of newcomers challenging for master-ship = non existent.

[Annele]

If someone suggests a way in that Phase 1 actually becomes a way for people to prove their worthiness as a Master then it sounds great and would probably make it's way into next trials. Hell, next trials might have a proving of activity if people decide they rather have one and hate the idea of just a signup for Phase 1. Especially if it doesn't overlap with Brawl at that point. In which, unless a better idea comes around, the meh idea that I thought of this trials may come back for next.

I think I said this before, but what if it was only the deckbuilding part of the challenge? Then there would still be a 'proving of worthiness' but it would have everything to do with being a master.

[Onizuka]

How do you judge a propaganda post without it basically becoming what the TrO liked the best? Judging the effort seems the antithesis of the point of the propaganda post and seemingly any sort of polling would increase the event even longer (not to mention making Phase 3 kinda worthless).


I feel like disallowing masters to get loyalty points and only war points is kinda weird. It would be better if War wasn't so slanted to/against certain elements, where I feel like some elements will just simply never be on the playing field for being able to get the highest amount of bonus points. And what about challengers who just keep trialing and forever gaining more points..eventually it seems either we'd make a cap or continually upping the points ante in other phases to balance around the forever increasing bonus points.

Which also gives the idea of allowing the defending master war bonus and a reduced cap of loyalty points compared to challengers (who get a higher cap), but I like the current system of where both get both, but the challenger gets less war points. While the numbers may need to be conjiggered a bit to revolve around not imbalancing the points of the actual phases  (Also: Current thoughts on the current numbers? I played around with the numbers a bit and was wondering on other people's views on both the war point distribution and the loyalty cap #), the current system seems fine as it is.


On loyalty bonus tiebreaking kickouts: maybe, if it's needed. Currently I like that it only matters if you get to the final battle and not if you actually get there. I don't really think people who have trialed more deserve the spot more than people who haven't trialed as much for an element. Maybe if you vastly outtrial them but if 4 people have 1 and 1 has none I don't really think they deserve it more than the guy with none.

Right now I'm willing to cross that bridge if it comes this trials and ponder it for next if it will seem to be needed (ala no real different phase 1 scores)


On Phase 1 possibilties:
Different elemental things, maybe. Anything FG/Arena related will be seemingly one part time, one part deck, one part RNG, one part RNG, one part RNG, and one part having the score and electrum to burn (if having to do on a non-trainer account). I'm hesitant to make anything that I can seemingly put 3 'one parts RNG' into something without feeling like I am over-killing the joke (Read: I could probably fit a 4th in there).

Deckbuilding ala RR's last trials? It is one thing that is only partially beaten with a stick by brawl. One thing that concerns me is that the 'Not having a proving a worthiness doesn't allow a proving of worthiness' complaint still rings true when the actual proving of worthiness is simply the same as Phases 2 & 4 minus the parts where if you're building an artsy deck you probably get a loss for it and substituting in points for it. Which then you're possibly going down the PvE route in which anything harder than AI3/4 will probably become a test of RNG for either the tester(s) who have to test everything to see if what it claims to do is true or the players filling some task for AIs.

[MyNameIsJoey]

Just a tiny thing but
in phase 1 thread where you post loyalty points by alphabetical order, i think it should be seperated by elements.