4th Trials - Suggestions and Feedback

[ZephyrPhantom]

thats why you run a deck with 6 explosions

Exactly why I run 6 discords 

exactly why i run a BE!

Exactly why one would run a quartet that everybody thought was a rainbow. See, we elementals can be creative!

I think the current PvP Phase 2 restrictions are fair enough - for an Element like Earth, we all managed to field at least slightly different decks, and in the end it was really about matchups, luck, and some small tweaks - which seems to imply we'd done a decent job at deckbuilding.

[Bhlewos]

Half and half for Gravity. Against numbers it was mainly Catatitans vs. Discord/BH, but against nilsie I think both of us were afraid of Reverse Times, so we got pretty creative with our decks to avoid being wrecked by it. I saw a lot of variety there.

[agentflare]

Fire just says: no for creativity. There's really only 2 decks that Fire can run that are effective.

• Some version of Immo-Golem/Phoenix
• Some version of a Fire Stall

Unless you're a badass like Essence who runs a Fractal Brimstone eaters.

[Higurashi]

Fractix beats both with different builds, but the point remains. This is, however, more of a problem with Fire. Nonetheless, I wouldn't mind more off-element cards. Being in Aether, I can certainly Fractal or TU anything, but unless I have some other cards from the duo element, it's a bad idea. The balance of that doesn't really bother me; it's more the viability of different fun decks than the usual tried and true.

I also noticed only 6 cards making Spike's Light/Time duo a lot less optimal. One-dimensional elements could use the ability to use more off-element cards in order to make Master's Tournament more balanced.

[TStar]

Entropy had much the same problem.  6 off-element cards means you can't really use off-element pillars and have to rely on pendulums for any combos, but then Discord tears you apart unless you use a Nova build, which throws everything back into having to either use rainbows or hope RNG favors you by getting your Discord out first in a mono/duo.  Jen-i and MatrimKK both echoed my frustration in that the battles were determined more by whomever won the coin toss and RNG than they were by deckbuilding prowess or skillful playing.  Some elements can likely fare better than others in this type of format but others it isn't even about RPSing well.  Of the 9 games played by the challengers I think strategy and counterdecking were a factor in only 2 of them.  The rest was all about who got the coin toss and/or Discord out first.  It's just incredibly frustrating when you are competing to be Master of an element and the rules do not allow players to really show off their skills in deckbuilding or playing.  One possible solution if these same rules are utilized in the future would be to ban certain cards within each element that tend to eliminate the skill factors involved.  As it stands, if seems like a lot of points are going to be handed out to the player with the best luck because I don't think these Trials have really let any player show off their skill yet.

[MatrimKK]

The main problem with discord was that you were only allowed 6 off elemental cards.  While this encourages creative deck building, it leave you with few competitive options.  The second problem was that you were limited to either using a mark with pendulum to power six cards, or nova with a small rainbow option.  In reality I only ended up building 3 decks, which I did minutes before I used them in the duels.  While this rule set was restrictive, I felt it simply didn't encourage variety.  My first deck was designed to be a bit controlling and able to power thru discord if needed.  My second deck couldn't care less if you played discord.   My third deck was actually designed to operated better under the effects of scramble and was specifically designed to get a first turn discord.  I don't feel over pillaring helps much versus discord here, as much of the time you simply top deck too many pillars when you need actual cards, though its much worse to draw cards and be forced to discard I realize.  I think the only decks here that didn't use discord were stalls, and you couldn't hope to stall effectively unless you could care less about discord.  While I was able to deck build against several situations I found one in particular to be problematic, which thankfully no one played   Of course luck played a role in some of these matches, its a card game were you draw random cards.  I felt there was a lack of competitive variety, while I do agree with Higs this forced many away from the "tried and true."  I do agree a ban of discord would have hugely changed the deck building process, this could be said also for and eternity. 

[YoungSot]

The main problem with discord was that you were only allowed 6 off elemental cards.  While this encourages creative deck building, it leave you with few competitive options.  The second problem was that you were limited to either using a mark with pendulum to power six cards, or nova with a small rainbow option.  In reality I only ended up building 3 decks, which I did minutes before I used them in the duels.  While this rule set was restrictive, I felt it simply didn't encourage variety.  My first deck was designed to be a bit controlling and able to power thru discord if needed.  My second deck couldn't care less if you played discord.   My third deck was actually designed to operated better under the effects of scramble and was specifically designed to get a first turn discord.  I don't feel over pillaring helps much versus discord here, as much of the time you simply top deck too many pillars when you need actual cards, though its much worse to draw cards and be forced to discard I realize.  I think the only decks here that didn't use discord were stalls, and you couldn't hope to stall effectively unless you could care less about discord.  While I was able to deck build against several situations I found one in particular to be problematic, which thankfully no one played   Of course luck played a role in some of these matches, its a card game were you draw random cards.  I felt there was a lack of competitive variety, while I do agree with Higs this forced many away from the "tried and true."  I do agree a ban of discord would have hugely changed the deck building process, this could be said also for and eternity. 

Yeah, we darkness challengers decided to balance our games by imposing houserule bans on problematic cards. It helps a lot if you have a screwy meta-game for your matches.

[bucky1andonly]

The problem is not the rules, it is the players.  It was obvious that entropy challengers were going to use discord, so why didn't you all get together and just say that no one will use discord.  6 off element cards is plenty for any element, it is the players that resort to using the same old strategies.  Don't blame the restrictions, blame yourself.   

Yeah, we darkness challengers decided to balance our games by imposing houserule bans on problematic cards. It helps a lot if you have a screwy meta-game for your matches.

Was going to say the same thing, then I got the "while you were typing a new reply has been posted" message.   

[MatrimKK]

No one could get a hold off DSS, who obviously put all his faith into LA. 
While discord can obviously be disruptive, I felt I planned around it. 

[~Napalm]

Well, I think I've expressed my dislike of the new Off Element rule for the Final Battle in chat enough. So I'll bring the discussion over here, where it belongs. I find that limiting the Off Element usage during this portion of the Trials is a great idea, but I think this rule just goes a little too far.

As Marisa said in chat, she cannot use any Fun decks at all, rather she will be forced to use Optimal decks. I personally had all sorts of plans that were shot out of the water by this new rule. In essence, I feel that the new rule is LIMITING creativity, rather than promoting it by being overly restrictive. Forcing players to use different elements should promote creativity, but when you can use each off element only once, it forces optimality and makes the event much more stressful to all involved.

I would like to suggest the following rework of the rule for consideration in future trials:

"You may not use an off-element card more than once. You may not use an off-element more than twice. If you use Lightning and Quintessence in your first deck, you may not use them again throughout the remainder of the Phase. You can however use any other Aether cards in one more deck. After an off-element has been used in two different decks, you may not use that off-element again throughout the remainder of the Phase. You may use 'other' cards at any time throughout the Phase. You may use any mark at any time throughout the Phase, regardless of how many times you've used it before"

This way, the off-element restriction is still in place, but one can get more creative with their choice of decks. For example, a Fire Finalist could use Flying Fahrenheits in one deck and Unstable Gas in another deck, allowing for a little more creative freedom while still encouraging a wide variety of decks.

I rest my case, ~Napalm. Discuss.

[Jocko]

.

I couldn't agree more.

[bucky1andonly]

Nice quote, where did you find that at?