Post by: serprex on September 29, 2019, 04:42:32 pm
Phase 2 will end in:
Phase 2 has ended!
Phase 2 has ended!
Phase 2 - The Battle Round
The rules for this phase are quite detailed, so be sure to read through them all carefully.
General Structure:
- Each player will play 4 Bo5 series
- Players who selected the 'I hate Brawl' task will play up to 3 additional matches. These matches will be exclusively between players who picked this task (plus STANDINs, if needed, see below)
- Trialists will play a match against every other player in-Element (including the defending Master, if there is one)
- Remaining matches shall be off-Element matches
- Challengers trialing for the same Element shall have the same off-Element opponents
- If the number of participants does not allow for exactly 4 matches for each player, STANDIN opponents will be used.
- STANDINs will have 8 elements of their choice.
- All STANDINs used to fill up 4 matches will be treated as in-element opponents.
Element Declaration:
Send element picks by:
I hope everyone's sent picks by now
I hope everyone's sent picks by now
- PM TrOs 8 elements. These are your chosen elements. You may only use an element as many times as you chose it. (you may use your in-element element without restriction, ofc)
- To players in the Light and Air trials, or playing worldwideweb3 in their extra matches, please send in your elements to DoubleCapitals and serprex only.
- Players who have not submitted elements by the end of the above deadline will have their 8 elements randomly assigned.
Deckbuilding Rules:
- Decks may be of any size, and you may use any mark.
- Decks must be at least 60% in-element (including pillars and pendulums).
- You may have two games per match where your deck may be only at least 40% in-element. You must inform your opponent after the game that you made that choice.
- You may only use an off-element as many times as you picked that element in your choices.
- "Other" cards are allowed every match. They are counted as in-element.
- Mark cards are treated as pillars of the Element whose quanta they produce for all deckbuilding rules
- Using a Pillar/Pendulum/Mark-card counts as using the Element that Pillar/Pendulum/Mark-card belongs to.
- Matches start with 3 upgrades. Each game you may use an additional 3 upgrades (so 3 in g1, 6 in g2, 9 in g3, etc). You may use an additional 3 upgrades for each Relic in your deck.
Game Rules:
- After every game, you must tell your opponent what Elements you used if they ask, but you should not share decklists or specific cards.
- In the event of a disconnect (Opponent not responding, CPU takes over), the players should play it out vs the AI on both sides
- If the same player wins in both "games", they are considered the winner of that game.
- If the two "games" result in wins for different players, the game is voided, and players may not switch decks before the next game.
- If it is obvious that a game will never end (e.g. if both players have zero net damage output -- where they can both heal off the damage done each turn easily -- and will never deck out, and both players have no means of breaking the stalemate), that game is voided, and players may switch decks prior to the next game.
- If a desynchronization error is detected and leads to weird circumstances, take screenshots immediately. Then the players should replay the match, unless it was clear who was going to win.
- Voided games do not count towards Elements used.
- In the event that an illegal deck is used in any game (whether that game was voided at the time of the match or not) the user of the illegal deck will be given a loss for that game (and their opponent a win).
- If you lose access to the Elements the Game during a game , the opponent should have the CPU take over, and they should play vs the CPU. If the opponent wins, the game is a loss for the person who lost connection. If the CPU wins, the game should be replayed with same deck and mark, unless the player who lost connection can prove that they'd win despite any series of draws from the opponent.
- Trials Overseers are the final arbitraters on all matters. If you have any issues, contact TrOs IMMEDIATELY.
After a Match, plus Scoring:
- If you win a match, post a topic in the TRIAL BATTLE RESULTS SECTION (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/trial-battle-results/), titled: [Trials 13 - Phase 2] [YourElement] YourName NumberOfWins - NumberOfLosses OpponentsName [OpponentsElement] (e.g. [Trials 13 - Phase 2] [Light] Mobian 3 - 1 shockcannon [Fire])
- Once Phase 2 finishes, you will have 2 days to post your decks in this topic.
- If you lose a match, wait for your opponent to post the topic detailed above. Then post in that topic to confirm the result.
- Once Phase 2 finishes, you will have 2 days to post your decks in this topic.
- NO DECKS SHOULD BE POSTED UNTIL AFTER ROUND 2 HAS ENDED.
- If you will be unavailable for deck posting during the 2 day deck posting window, please send the deck to the TrOs beforehand, with the title '[Phase 2 Decks] - YourName'.
- Please save your decks for easy posting after the round ends. We recommend sending your decks for each match as a PM to yourself to easily copy/paste into the post during the 2 day window.
- If a game is not played before Phase 2 ends, it will be ruled a forfeit for the player who made the least attempt to ensure the match was played. i.e. a win for the demonstrably more active player. If both players can provide sufficient evidence that they tried to make a match happen, but were unable to complete it, the TrOs reserve the right to award up to 0.25 points (per game) to each player for a draw.
- Each game is scored independently, and a win awards 1 point.
Here are the matches (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/trial-battle-results/13th-trials-phase-2-match-results-and-countdown) . Pretty tables inside!
For matches:
Time is up!
Any player who does not post their Phase 2 decks during the 2 days between the end of matchs and the beginning of Phase 3 will have that match marked as 0 wins.
Deck Submission Deadline:
Time's up!
Post any questions below, we're happy to help!
Post by: TeRevised on September 29, 2019, 07:08:39 pm
Post by: Submachine on September 29, 2019, 07:13:38 pm
Weren't like 3 days left for Phase 1 submissions?No need to worry, Phase 2 is just updated early. We still have time for Phase 1, though much less than 3 days.
TIME TO ENTER THE TRIALS
PHASE 1 DONE
Post by: Wyand on September 29, 2019, 08:35:42 pm
:entropy should forget Grabbow and SoSe decks? A Grabbow uses 6-10 elements depending
on variant, a bit less used by SoSe. Rules let us use 8 Elements ONCE. It is crazy that by the current
rules an :entropy trialist cannot really use bows whatsoever. Grabbow is one of :entropy's
most important asset.
Please allow everyone to choose one :rainbow between their chosen 8 Elements.
Post by: serprex on September 29, 2019, 08:50:48 pm
Post by: Wyand on September 29, 2019, 08:53:58 pm
screw important decks.
Post by: Wyand on September 30, 2019, 12:09:38 am
which enables players to run 0% in-element decks in one game. This is called Trials of [element] for a reason.
Post by: MyNameIsJoey on September 30, 2019, 12:37:15 am
Post by: shockcannon on September 30, 2019, 12:37:26 am
0% in-element is kinda iffy though in my opinion. I'm fine if it stays because I know exactly how to crush people with this rule but also not a huge fan. I think it can stay with some restrictions, like you have to use a 40% in element deck for the first two matches. That way there might be less possible elements to use by that point, making it not a complete guess as to what the opponent might bring. If a player can manage to win the first two using only monos, then they'll be rewarded by having a massive range of decks they could use. Maybe even pushing it so you can't play the <40% in-element deck until after 3 games, giving players a chance to 3-0 and end the match if they really don't want to face a random mono that they can't predict.
Post by: Wyand on September 30, 2019, 12:52:57 am
Well wyand, after 13 trials its difficult to always come up with something new and refreshing. Try it out, hell you might enjoy it. And if you dont theres a feedback thread to make sure the mistake isnt made again
I'm sure it is hard to figure out new rulesets. I admire the volunteers doing this work. That still doesn't explain the extreme idea of 0% decks.
Pointing to feedback thread isn't useful when Flash will die, and chances are good this is the last Trials. It would be more practical to ask ppl
before deciding possibly controversial rules. I don't know how the community operated in the golden days, but how things went in
2018 and 2019 made me feel that everything is very casual and not really planned now. I know that we are in the decline, but still.
Having conversations and discussions before events seem a better idea than letting ppl complain afterwards.
Post by: shockcannon on September 30, 2019, 12:53:58 am
Post by: Ginyu on September 30, 2019, 01:05:56 am
I do not see 40 % as that big of a problem as your own element will still make up most of your decks, so trying that out seems like a good idea.
A proper reason for bow bans would also be great. It is totally fine to restrict its usage to maybe 2 times, but leaving them out completely will restrict an already tight meta even more.
I might have missed the rule, but are these 8 off-elements for all your matches (probably not counting the I-hate-Brawl tasks?) or for each match?
Post by: InsignificantWeeaboo on September 30, 2019, 01:07:50 am
I might have missed the rule, but are these 8 off-elements for all your matches (probably not counting the I-hate-Brawl tasks?) or for each match?
Each match, element usage resets between. Otherwise, we would've seen a bunch of monos in various matches.
Post by: serprex on September 30, 2019, 01:16:20 am
...
A proper reason for bow bans would also be great. It is totally fine to restrict its usage to maybe 2 times, but leaving them out completely will restrict an already tight meta even more.
I might have missed the rule, but are these 8 off-elements for all your matches (probably not counting the I-hate-Brawl tasks?) or for each match?
I opted to keep rules simple, jijo had mentioned implementing :chroma pick as only allowing 2 cards at most from each element used, but it seems unnecessary. I've trialed for Entropy with restrictions that made grabbow difficult to field before, it was fine. Adding in :chroma rules would pretty much be creating "Wyand wants to be able to run Grabbow in every event" rules. Jen will be facing the same disadvantages, so it won't cause an issue in Entropy's points going into Phase 3. Full blown rainbows can wait for Phase 4. While there may be some issues with the current rules, I don't believe there's anything which will be such a big deal when in the end it's only for 4 Bo5s. I at least think it'll require actually playing out to determine the merit of these theories
Each match uses the same set of 8 elements, but yes, each match happens in isolation from the other in terms of available elements. Bans will be per-match
edit: additionally, there's a "theory of enabling mindgames" in creating options for players which some might say is broken. I feel that a lot of people when they try to design a good game (& creating pvp events is essentially game design, we've built games on top of Elements, just as mapmakers built games on top of Broodwar) they lean towards creating a grey blob. But good games often have plenty of irregularities for players to try undermine their opponents with
Post by: iancudorinmarian on September 30, 2019, 07:51:00 am
Post by: dawn to dusk on September 30, 2019, 08:09:17 am
I'm not a huuuge fan of the 0% rule, but I'm interested to see how it will pan out. I would be in favour of changing it to 20% in-element (6 in-element cards, allows splashing, allows Entropy to run CPWyrms, etc), but I am curious to see what happens here.
Post by: Submachine on September 30, 2019, 08:19:14 am
Following this logic, the off-element game per match is silly, but I have no preference whatsoever.
Post by: Wyand on September 30, 2019, 08:48:10 am
Adding in :chroma rules would pretty much be creating "Wyand wants to be able to run Grabbow in every event" rules.
At last, admitting that it would be at least considered if the idea would have spawned originally from someone else. Try to understand,
it is not about me. You haven't even cared to check how many times I ran Grabbow in various events. I raised my voice because I
found it ridiculous that an Element loses one of its strongest decks due to strange rules, and it doesn't really matters if Jen must
abide to the same rules, it is utterly irrelevant. Other "arguments" I heard so far were:
- It is only 4 matches ("...so it doesn't matter if rules are not optimal...." it is friggin' Trials dammit!);
- Let's try it out and see if we/you like it... (yeah, works for a fresh community when we have no idea about what should work);
- ... and if you didn't like it give feedback ("you may freely complain afterwards" - hell yeah, totally western capitalist view, like a print
on a food item's box, and see before: the game is dying, have fun with afterwards feedback).
We are not in an experimental phase of the game. As I wrote earlier: pre-planning together is much more efficient than telling ppl
give feedback after the event.
Also, I can live with the 40% in-element rule, tbh I like to plan decks with only 40% in-element. I just don't think it is a good idea,
for me the Trials should be about my element.
But 0% stuff is completely rubbish, as shock said it brings in too much unpredictability. In g#1 you can expect the element's decks
oooooor 7 different monos / a dozen of different duos. Cool. Ginyu's idea with Tinkerer actually might work. Don't know if players
would exploit it using a dead mark, but I think it would be logical to everyone to actually USE the mark, f.e. CP Wyrms/Psions.
Imagine if, once per game, your opponent could bring "The Deck" or Grabbow. For no reason other than that it's a strong deck. I firmly believe 0% in-element rule and allowing Rainbows should never be allowed to co-exist.
I never wished them to co-exist. I always wanted to allow Rainbows AND scrap 0% rule.
I assumed that we don't use rainbow decks in Trials because that does not represent the mastery over a single element.
Might be true, except for :entropy since Nova is an :entropy card. (Using that logic we should also ban SoV, since every element can make
its SoV deck, and the same applies to Lightstalls, too.) Also using SoSe dictates using other elements as well in your deck,
so it hurts :entropy's shard, too.
If you think I'm angry: yes I am. If you think I'm angry because things don't go my way: you are mistaken.
What pisses me off that there isn't a real conversation, there are no real arguments, just the things I listed.
What pisses me off that there isn't a real conversation, there are no real arguments, just the things I listed.
Post by: Submachine on September 30, 2019, 09:16:56 am
I assumed that we don't use rainbow decks in Trials because that does not represent the mastery over a single element.
Might be true, except for :entropy since Nova is an :entropy card. (Using that logic we should also ban SoV, since every element can make its SoV deck, and the same applies to Lightstalls, too.) Also using SoSe dictates using other elements as well in your deck, so it hurts :entropy's shard, too.
Something does not click with this response. ?_? The connection between Nova and SoV is very thin, almost non-existent. It's also not in response to my quote. But here are a few counterpoints, since you were asking for them:
- SoV can be used in duo decks, which the current rules favor.
- SoSe can be used in Entropy mono with Supernovas.
- If a deck is hurt, using other decks is the easiest option. If NovaBows were the only decks worth fielding by Entropy, your argument would have more power, but Entropy has more options than that. Just because it's the most fun/effective/etc to use, it does not mean it must be used at least once. Plus, the current rules don't necessarily disallow it, you just need to be efficient with the used elements.
Post by: Wyand on September 30, 2019, 09:48:06 am
I assumed that we don't use rainbow decks in Trials because that does not represent the mastery over a single element.
Might be true, except for :entropy since Nova is an :entropy card. (Using that logic we should also ban SoV, since every element can make its SoV deck, and the same applies to Lightstalls, too.) Also using SoSe dictates using other elements as well in your deck, so it hurts :entropy's shard, too.
Something does not click with this response. ?_? The connection between Nova and SoV is very thin, almost non-existent. It's also not in response to my quote. But here are a few counterpoints, since you were asking for them:
- SoV can be used in duo decks, which the current rules favor.
I think this is a misunderstanding. Yep, they are vastly different cards. The reason I mentioned SoV
and SoDstall because they share something important with Grabbow: the option to make
a (more or less) viable variant for any Element.
Quote
- SoSe can be used in Entropy mono with Supernovas.
The only situation where a Mono SoSe is a good idea, when you are forced to play Monos (did that in last year's 12 Lives).
Quote
This will never be the case, since every Element has more options than using only its power decks.
- If a deck is hurt, using other decks is the easiest option. If NovaBows were the only decks worth fielding by Entropy, your argument would have more power, but Entropy has more options than that. Just because it's the most fun/effective/etc to use, it does not mean it must be used at least once.
By this thinking we could ban anything (Devs, RT, Animate Weapon, anything you don't like) and
casually say "use other decks".
Quote
- Plus, the current rules don't necessarily disallow it, you just need to be efficient with the used elements.
Grabbows use 6-10 Elements. Good luck building a not-crippled Grabbow. (I know: "lel, just win first 2 games with monos
then win with a 6 Elements Grabbow".)
Post by: serprex on September 30, 2019, 10:30:48 am
I gave a flippant response earlier to Wyand because I recognize we're both stubborn, so both sides feel the other side isn't listening. Not interested in writing long opinion pieces
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on September 30, 2019, 04:00:00 pm
I opted to keep rules simple, jijo had mentioned implementing :chroma pick as only allowing 2 cards at most from each element used, but it seems unnecessary.
Quote
[29.09.2019 22:55:29] TheonlyrealBeef: I guess as long as you limit it to max 2 cards per element, most elements couldn't care less about it being an option and cannot abuse it.It looks like jijo is already Master of Darkness :silly:
Both rainbows and low in-element percentages are low on elemental loyalty, so lowering the in-element to 40% but not allowing rainbows invalidates that argument. Honestly, already with just 50% in-element people can make Adrenastaves, Catitans and RoL Hope with any element, to name but a few decks. Air SoFree and SoPa Wardens may be added to that list with 40% in-element, 0% is even worse. If you wanted rules that spurt creativity, why not increase the in-element percentage (60-80%)? It invalidates many historical meta decks and forces players to come up with new ways to counter known low off-element decks. It even makes rainbows irrelevant since you do not have enough off-elements to make proper use of it. Alternatively, allow pends to only count as half in-element to get rid of those lame 10 pends 2 in-element card decks.
An entirely different proposal to the rainbow issue, is to allow unlimited uses of each element. This allows people like me that do not need many off-element cards, to use more for bans, while people like Wyand get to play their rainbows. And with serprex' favorite same rules for everyone in the same element argument, I really do not see any good reason not to. It may make predictions harder at first glance due to more available elements, but bans can neglect that.
Post by: MyNameIsJoey on September 30, 2019, 05:08:28 pm
Post by: kaempfer13 on September 30, 2019, 05:19:58 pm
who is jijo?AND HIS NAME IS JO-eh
Post by: serprex on September 30, 2019, 11:11:43 pm
Final changes made before P2 begins:
- Decks must be 60% in-element
- Two decks in a match may be 40% in-element instead
- Bans have been removed
- Other cards count as in-element
The removal of bans render rainbows more accessible
Post by: kaempfer13 on September 30, 2019, 11:16:03 pm
Post by: Wyand on October 01, 2019, 12:12:23 am
Dunno if I'm happy with the removal of bans. Strange. I kinda liked bans last year.
Post by: dawn to dusk on October 01, 2019, 12:36:00 am
Post by: serprex on October 01, 2019, 04:27:51 am
Post by: worldwideweb3 on October 01, 2019, 05:06:47 am
Post by: worldwideweb3 on October 01, 2019, 06:19:32 am
Post by: Wyand on October 01, 2019, 09:44:33 am
Quote
PM TrOs 8 elements. These are your chosen elements. You may only use an element as many times as you chose it. (you may use your in-element element without restriction, ofc)
Which means I have 8 elements counting my own element, too, or that isn't included in that number? In other words: do we have to "ban" 3 or 4 elements?
Post by: Ginyu on October 01, 2019, 11:12:59 am
Post by: worldwideweb3 on October 01, 2019, 12:15:05 pm
You always have access to your own element, you do not need to pick that. Also, you can take off-elements more than once.
This is right.
Post by: Submachine on October 01, 2019, 01:22:35 pm
Do we send the same elements for all matchups or can they be different?
Post by: serprex on October 01, 2019, 03:30:42 pm
Post by: serprex on October 09, 2019, 02:36:17 am
Post by: Wyand on October 09, 2019, 10:20:03 am
Post by: Ginyu on October 09, 2019, 01:21:22 pm
Post by: serprex on October 09, 2019, 03:05:06 pm
7 days seem a bit much. I will likely get my matches done in time, but if others need some, 3 more days will include next week's weekend.
3 days would only reach beginning of weekend. But 4 or 5 could work
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on October 09, 2019, 04:10:07 pm
Maybe those 3 days were calculated based on the original timer above phase 2 matches, which is not the actual match timer. As the OP here makes clear, Monday 14 October is currently the last day of matches. Adding 5 days makes that Saturday 19 October.7 days seem a bit much. I will likely get my matches done in time, but if others need some, 3 more days will include next week's weekend.
3 days would only reach beginning of weekend. But 4 or 5 could work
For me, this would change nothing, since my availability on that Saturday is non-existant.
Then again, it's mostly everyone else that needs to play their matches.
Post by: worldwideweb3 on October 09, 2019, 06:37:00 pm
Post by: Wyand on October 09, 2019, 06:47:52 pm
Quote
Oa 3 - 1 w3
Post by: Submachine on October 09, 2019, 07:26:14 pm
(Especially as a TrO? Seriously?)
Either is fine by me, though this year we had some poor TrO comments already. This is my feedback, act more professionally.
Post by: worldwideweb3 on October 09, 2019, 07:30:37 pm
Speaking in allcaps is immature. But it’s just www, so that explains it. :silly:
(Especially as a TrO? Seriously?)
Either is fine by me, though this year we had some poor TrO comments already. This is my feedback, act more professionally.
This is not a job. We're humans. Its a place to have fun.
(http://www.girardatlarge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Party-Pooper-243x300.jpg)
Post by: DANIEELA on October 09, 2019, 07:38:48 pm
Post by: Submachine on October 09, 2019, 07:41:33 pm
Post by: shockcannon on October 09, 2019, 07:54:47 pm
Congrats, you have completed the test to see if you are noob enough to waste your time with my spoilers. Please click "menu" and then "ok" the next you play me to receive your prize.
Post by: serprex on October 09, 2019, 08:01:45 pm
So you do not care to be a good TrO or about the players, only about your own fun. All positions come with a level of responsibility. If you cannot show that, you might as well just step down from your duties and have fun elsewhere.
You're putting words in www3's mouth. Please move this argument to PMs if you'd like to continue the discussion
Post by: Wyand on October 09, 2019, 08:43:26 pm
Speaking in allcaps is immature. But it’s just www, so that explains it. :silly:
(Especially as a TrO? Seriously?)
Either is fine by me, though this year we had some poor TrO comments already. This is my feedback, act more professionally.
This is not a job. We're humans. Its a place to have fun.
That's what I think about Trials, too. Arrived home lately, just to work another hour after dinner... (and I'm not
talking about decktesting now. That'll happen after this.)
Congrats, you have completed the test to see if you are noob enough to waste your time with my spoilers. Please click "menu" and then "ok" the next you play me to receive your prize.
You've lost this one, shock. I just pressed 'quote'. :P
Post by: shockcannon on October 09, 2019, 08:44:14 pm
Post by: Ginyu on October 09, 2019, 09:24:45 pm
Maybe those 3 days were calculated based on the original timer above phase 2 matches, which is not the actual match timer. As the OP here makes clear, Monday 14 October is currently the last day of matches. Adding 5 days makes that Saturday 19 October.7 days seem a bit much. I will likely get my matches done in time, but if others need some, 3 more days will include next week's weekend.
3 days would only reach beginning of weekend. But 4 or 5 could work
Ugh, they were. I didn't realize they were different. Glad to know before it's too late, although my schedulings should still be in time.
Post by: Submachine on October 10, 2019, 06:44:20 am
Best of luck for the remaining participants!
Post by: worldwideweb3 on October 11, 2019, 10:44:50 pm
Post by: serprex on October 14, 2019, 08:39:36 pm
Post by: serprex on October 16, 2019, 04:08:48 pm
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on October 22, 2019, 07:23:38 am
Post by: serprex on October 22, 2019, 03:30:36 pm
Post by: dawn to dusk on October 23, 2019, 02:44:54 am
Post by: serprex on October 23, 2019, 06:11:28 am