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RedRevive

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Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16626#msg16626
« on: January 11, 2010, 01:52:43 am »
Metagame: The strategy which transcends the prescribed ruleset


Similar to Daxx asking you all to post your decklists for the tournament, I would like to know what you thought was most prevalent in the tournament today.  Second, I also think Daxx wanted to see if common elements or cards were present in the winning decks, and asked us to post them for that reason also.

Well, after talking in the chat about it briefly,
it appears that this was metagame card #1 . . .




I would like to pose this question: do you think not having the shard of gratitude cards in a player's deck caused him/her to perform worse than if he/she did?

PuppyChow

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16627#msg16627
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 01:58:36 am »
I have no clue why everyone had those in their deck. I guess they just wanted to show off "HAY! I HAZ SOG!". Since they really aren't that OP.

They destroy decks with low damage output, but other than that, all they do is provide a small amount of stalling. *Most* decks, especially some of the ones I saw posted, would have been better off making the draws less random (and therefore making the deck more consistent) by taking the sogs out. 1-3 SoG *usually* has no profound effect. It starts getting helpful once you get 4-6 out, but that's late game, and by then most of the tourny decks I've seen would have either won or lost already.

RedRevive

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16629#msg16629
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2010, 02:04:25 am »
I agree somewhat with you Puppy, mostly on the decks that played firebolt stall.  SoGs heal you on a heal-per-turn (HPT) basis, meaning that when a certain player (coredeathTT :P) got the necessary fire quanta to one shot me, he did so, and my three SoGs did absolutely nothing to save me. 

However, that being said, playing SoGs against Elite Arbiter's phase dragon / posion deck was a life saver, since I mitigated a lot of DPT (damage per turn) using four SoGs.

As puppy said, the more you can play earlier, the better, but at 2 quanta per shard, it's quite expensive to play more than two of them early game.


What about flying weapons?

minipika12

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16630#msg16630
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2010, 02:05:44 am »
I would say that Animate Weapon was pretty popular, too.

Offline Amilir

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16643#msg16643
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2010, 03:36:16 am »
I have no clue why everyone had those in their deck. I guess they just wanted to show off "HAY! I HAZ SOG!". Since they really aren't that OP.

They destroy decks with low damage output, but other than that, all they do is provide a small amount of stalling. *Most* decks, especially some of the ones I saw posted, would have been better off making the draws less random (and therefore making the deck more consistent) by taking the sogs out. 1-3 SoG *usually* has no profound effect. It starts getting helpful once you get 4-6 out, but that's late game, and by then most of the tourny decks I've seen would have either won or lost already.
Anything less than a pure damage rush will be slowed significantly, not just a small amount.  Weak damage decks, like morning star, are completely destroyed.  In the time the deck gains, it can get to its main purpose.  With a bit of creature control, you can lower your opponent's damage below your healing, and then kill him leisure.  If your control is strong, you can even stop a damage rush. 

More importantly, it combines very well with other forms of defense.  Once I got set up, immortal creatures and firebolts were the only things that could kill me, if my opponent didn't have either, I could just rewind everything and be invulnerable.  Heavy permanent control could keep me from setting up in the first place, but few decks take that much without pulvy, which was unupped.

Other decks were based on fire bolts, where five turns of quanta building is a massive advantage.

It isn't that strong -- if you take it unassisted and compare it to dragons. Throw in turtle shield or dusk mantle and it doubles in power.  Zap a dragon or two, and your opponent won't even be able to lower your life.

You do need to use it properly for it to be incredible, but is.  It's also a decent card to throw in nearly any deck, though not always the best.

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16645#msg16645
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2010, 04:07:38 am »
Do you think not having the shard of gratitude cards in a player's deck caused him/her to perform worse than if he/she did?
Most definitely yes! All four players in the Final Four played at least 3-4 Shards of Gratitude. It's just too powerful to pass up. Take, for example, a mirror match between two identical mono-Fire creature decks. If both decks are exactly the same but deck #2 has Shards of Gratitude, it will win the damage race more often than not. It slows the game down to a crawl to the point that control decks completely own any sort of aggro strategies. That's why the slower decks like Firebolt were so successful.

I have no clue why everyone had those in their deck. I guess they just wanted to show off "HAY! I HAZ SOG!". Since they really aren't that OP.

They destroy decks with low damage output, but other than that, all they do is provide a small amount of stalling. *Most* decks, especially some of the ones I saw posted, would have been better off making the draws less random (and therefore making the deck more consistent) by taking the sogs out. 1-3 SoG *usually* has no profound effect. It starts getting helpful once you get 4-6 out, but that's late game, and by then most of the tourny decks I've seen would have either won or lost already.
Well, in an upped-legal format, Shard of Gratitude isn't really that powerful, because most decks can set up much faster to offset the benefits SoG provides. The format for this tournament was much slower because upgraded cards were not allowed. Because of the speed of the format, Shard of Gratitude's ability was amplified.

PuppyChow

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16649#msg16649
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2010, 04:50:19 am »
True, but isn't that true with pretty much every upgraded card? I mean, if elite otys were allowed, everybody would use them simply because they would then have a leg up on the other cards.

So yes, I guess you're right in unupped format. But in the pvp "metagame", as in pro duels in general (not just in tournaments), most matches are played using upgraded cards. So SoG is not "the" card to have in a deck for a normal metagame duel. In unupgraded tournaments, yes, it may be the card to have. But I hardly consider this tournament to be metagame  :-\.

And I advocate banning SoG from unupgraded tournaments such as this one was in the future.

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16652#msg16652
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2010, 06:07:52 am »
So yes, I guess you're right in unupped format. But in the pvp "metagame", as in pro duels in general (not just in tournaments), most matches are played using upgraded cards. So SoG is not "the" card to have in a deck for a normal metagame duel. In unupgraded tournaments, yes, it may be the card to have. But I hardly consider this tournament to be metagame  :-\.
Metagame is relative to the playing format and rule restrictions. In this particular environment, Shard of Gratitude dominated. Because both Shard of Gratitude and Shard of Divinity are upgraded and are a great addition to nearly any deck, I...

Quote
And I advocate banning SoG from unupgraded tournaments such as this one was in the future.
...totally agree with you.

bombo

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16658#msg16658
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2010, 09:00:20 am »
I play in the tournament 1 round...I win 1 match vs Redrevive.....than today im go to read the decks of other partecipant ,mostly the winner use deck with shard of gratitude, animated weapon ecc..... the cards suggested when in the rules of the tourney were prohibited to use upgrated card. Than I ask me, how i can think to win a round with my death deck without the hated shard of gratitude, 6 morning glory, or other 6 rare card that i cant have never. I think that the rule of the tournament have to be changed.......

Jumbalumba

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16660#msg16660
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2010, 09:50:28 am »
I don't really see any discussion on Shard of Divinity but I feel it is also overpowered in a non-upped format. Arguably it is better than Shard of Gratitude in a format that allows Shards as people would learn to pack Steals and Deflagrations.

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16663#msg16663
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2010, 10:53:43 am »
I play in the tournament 1 round...I win 1 match vs Redrevive.....than today im go to read the decks of other partecipant ,mostly the winner use deck with shard of gratitude, animated weapon ecc..... the cards suggested when in the rules of the tourney were prohibited to use upgrated card. Than I ask me, how i can think to win a round with my death deck without the hated shard of gratitude, 6 morning glory, or other 6 rare card that i cant have never. I think that the rule of the tournament have to be changed.......
If I am understanding you correctly, you didn't realize that Shard of Divinity, Shard of Gratitude, Animate Weapon, and upgraded Purify were allowed until after the tournament...? If that is the case then I don't know what to say other than read the rules more carefully next time. If you feel that it isn't fair that some upgraded cards like the Shards were legal, then I share that sentiment.

I don't really see any discussion on Shard of Divinity but I feel it is also overpowered in a non-upped format. Arguably it is better than Shard of Gratitude in a format that allows Shards as people would learn to pack Steals and Deflagrations.
Yeah, Shard of Divinity is probably overpowered in an unupped tournament environment. It really wasn't in very many decks, though. Shard of Gratitude was more of a factor, and caught me completely by surprise. I didn't realize so many people had it.

Offline Jangoo

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Re: Tournament Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1923.msg16668#msg16668
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2010, 01:11:56 pm »
From what I saw in the spectate, Sog as well as all the other compromises concerning upped cards shifted the balance in favour of people who have them.
Now I am not saying that this is necessarily bad because you want to have played a lot of games for a reason and thus have some advantage in a tourney I suppose.

Clearly, the SoGged decks performed better but so did those decks that were allowed to include Animate Weapon.
For me, the Ãœber-card of this tourney was Animate Weapon because it enabled Top20 players to not only show off their guns but also show off that they even have 6 of them unupped!

 And that is truly elitarian ...

 

blarg: