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The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg524556#msg524556
« on: July 23, 2012, 12:40:05 pm »
Place comments and suggestions here.

Offline mrpaper

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg524564#msg524564
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 01:24:27 pm »
It was a fun event for me but some things that should be rethinked...
4 upgrades ain't much on a 40 deck card (at start).
skip 1st turn or lose a game is lame because most of us have the reflex of playing right from the start.  I would suggest if you have higher air, you can ask for redraw if you wish that way, the one with more air should have lots of quanta at start nd therefore be faster.
having 1 mark and 2 elements to play from the start makes some terrible and some great combos.. so games aren't always fun.  Maybe the opponents could choose the mark and/or elements? That way we would all have lame decks but it would be more fair  :D

Offline kev

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg524570#msg524570
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 02:01:00 pm »
So the number of quitters clearly points to a problem of motivation.  Here's a couple problems I saw:
  • After two rounds it didn't feel possible to catch up to the leaders.  Even if I won all my matches and they lost most of theirs, I'm behind.  It feels insurmountable.
  • Even if it was possible to catch the leaders mathematically, getting an early lead in ranks makes it much too hard.  One player went 3-0 against all three opponents in round 3 using one deck, for instance.  Incidentally this is also a problem with monos during the event.  I think randomizing elements so they don't match marks would be an improvement.
  • I heard one player say "You already have three ranks of my element.  Y u no let me win?"  He was joking and he ended up losing, but he was right that his opponent wasn't motivated to compete.  Maybe if you win a fourth you can assign a rank to a different element?
I hope the players who quit or wanted to quit have the motivation to share their thoughts.  :D

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg524577#msg524577
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 02:19:11 pm »
More elements(Earth>Water)~=Lower deck size>>>upgrades

4 upgrades is too insignificant, 8 barely makes it there, and 12 usually alright
I'd like to see get fire get a +1 upped card to use for each match/2 matches they win in phase 1 parts.

Completely random element would be preferable (think of it as you have no control over where you are born in the world).

I like paper's air suggestion, winning a battle that you were outdecked in is lulzy because they went first when they weren't supposed to. I'd also like to see earth not be able to lose by deckout.

I feel like the 3 shield rule is stupid. That it maybe is only really is there b/c of dims is annoying for decks that use shields that aren't dims.

Monos are stupidly powerful because of the earth restraint for duos/trios and I don't think you should be able to get a mark+element of the same element.

I'm also not against the implementation of a Grid II floating system for when a element vs element match is missed. Just have them fight as they would if they were matched that round, not from the future.

Other stuff maybe later.
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Offline Shantu

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg524582#msg524582
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 02:57:45 pm »
I think the event was fun, but I feel that there should be bigger twists in deckbuilding. I liked the level-up system, though I believe the Earth bonus was a bit too strong; stronger than Water, at least. Fire and Air felt alright, but it would be nice to avoid the 1st turn skipping, too many autolosses because of that.
I agree with Kev that catching up is close to impossible. If I hadn't had perfect rounds from round 2 onwards, I couldn't have caught up either.
I also agree there needs to be some kind of grandmaster level after collecting the 3 levels required for winning, like you learn bloodbending/metalbending etc. with appropriate bonuses. These bonuses should be small however, otherwise it further increases the gap.

My main gripe about the event was the rounds dragging on for so long. I know summer plays a part in that, but it literally sucked to wait for two persons to play in Fire while everyone else has already finished every game 3 days earlier.

There is another concern that needs to be addressed though: RNG.
The RNG is already heavily present in Elements, so we shouldn't rely on her outside the game this much. I have two proposals that could perhaps ease this:

- Allow to 'rotate' one of your elements into the alphabetically next one either for free or for a small price. If it was free, you could do it only once a round and only with elements you do not already have (say, you have  :life :light :entropy - you can't rotate life since you already have light). If it wasn't free, I could imagine the small price being like losing an upgrade or having to use +2 cards in your deck for each rotation. Or combine the two: limited but has a cost.

- Bans. Bans are fun. They lower the luck part by the powerful cards automatically getting disabled, so getting powerful elements doesn't mean *that* much. This system could also eliminate the evil 3 shields rule. I have the following ideas about how to handle the bans for phase 1:

1. Individual banning vs Tribe/nation banning
The first is pretty straightforward, everyone bans some cards from their opponents and vice versa. The tribe banning is slightly more interesting however. You get together with your fellow elementals ( :air :earth :fire :water separated) and decide on a number of bans that every other tribe must suffer. The exact number of bans can be specified in a number of ways, I will get back to that soon.  The person who has the highest level in their own element must send it to the organizer. If there are multiple people with the same level, total level is the deciding factor. Overall every nation receives 3 sets of bans (not necessarily public) which should encourage more creative deckbuilding.

2. The number of bans
If you go with individual banning, the number could be fixed (like always 5), changing randomly or with a pattern every round or maybe dependent on your bending levels. Not sure which is the best. If it is dependent on your bending levels, it can be further twisted, like you can ban thrice as many from an earth person as earth levels you have.
With tribe banning, you can also do the same. If unchanging, I'd go for about 6 cards/tribe. Otherwise I'd make it dependent on the number of people in the tribe and/or on their off-element bending levels. Just throwing out ideas so that you may get inspiration..

3. When the banning happens
Well the benning can happen either before the elements are given out - blind banning - or after you know your opponent's elements. If you go the tribe way I'd do it blind, since it would be too hard to cram another phase into the rounds. You could simply do it in phase 2 of the previous. Plan ahead while you beat each other up. I also think blind banning is more fun, especially if you have a larger number of bans to throw around. But that's just me.
If you go with individual banning, I'd still do it blind but you also have the option to do it after the elements have been given out since individually you don't have to organize anything. Give a day to send the bans in. No bans sent mean you are a masochist and don't ban anything.

For phase 2, I honestly have no idea at the moment, but it should probably use something different. Maybe tribe ban in phase 1, individual in phase 2.

TL;DR:
Fun, but needs more twists
Fix the catching up problem
Mastery levels
Faster rounds
Lower the effect of the RNG
 - Rotating elements
 - Bans


This is all I had in mind at the moment, I may post more later.

EDIT: Also, the character sheets of people who dropped out of the event in phase 2 should be kept, I think, just greyed out or in a spoiler. For archives sake.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 06:33:39 pm by Shantu »

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg524632#msg524632
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 06:17:55 pm »
Getting a level in native element is very hard. Only one player can level up each round, and that's after winning all 3 matches. Compare Phase 1, where you play 3 matches to level up 3 times.
People will generally pick which native element could benefit them the most. This is counterintuitive with the current leveling up for native element.
Suggestion made: increase the number of player leveling up during second phase. Maybe best 4 or such.
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Offline Shantu

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg524642#msg524642
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2012, 06:33:31 pm »
People will generally pick which native element could benefit them the most.

I did the opposite. I liked the Earth and Air bonus best, but after a lot of pondering I realized that if I joined those elements, I would have a harder time increasing my native levels. So I chose Water. This way I also didn't have to worry about EQs or mono fires all the time in phase 2.

Offline majofaTopic starter

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg525113#msg525113
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 09:11:39 pm »
Just some thoughts so I don't forget:

:air
I didn't really see a problem with this rule, I think people are just not used to playing with it. I always said it takes discipline to become the Avatar. The Air-benders were in last place after the first round, so I think they need all the advantage they can get.

:earth
The Earth-benders got off to a quick start, I'm not totally sure if this was due to the benefit they got. It was more likely due to all the veterans bunching up in this element.

:fire
We originally had the upgraded cards at 5 per level, but reduced it by one. 4 was not enough, especially at the beginning. It'll probably be 5 per level next time. Also, I had thought about adding: 'You can't be decked out by your opponent if your Fire-bending is higher', but decided to leave it off.

:water
I predicted the Avatar would come from the Water-benders. Thanks to some stellar rounds from Shantu and the RNG absolutely hating Onizuka, it came true. Thoughts on the 'can't be poisoned rule'?



General stuff:
Mono decks were too powerful and won't be allowed next time.
---
'Too hard to come back'
The in-element tournaments were designed to eliminate players who were too far behind, unfortunately, the amount of players quitting in the middle of the event messed this up. Some lower level players stuck around longer than they should have.
Also, I believe Shantu only won one game in Round 1 - Phase I, but then won the Water-bending tourney and stormed back into contention.
---
Round scheduling was a little more sporadic than I would have liked, but in some rounds I was put in a position where only half the games had been played.
To partially fix this, the in-element tournament will be broken up into rounds, instead of the tourney as a whole.
---
What happens when you're at max level?
I like the idea of advanced bending, so I'm open to ideas of what advantages these would give.
I don't like the idea of being able to 'level up' another element, except for possibly of your 'own element'.
---
Randomization of elements was a main part of this event, as :earth and :water both directly affected this.
Maybe the elements could be separated into 'tiers', so that you're guaranteed to get a top tier element?
Banning of cards I don't like.
---
3 shield limit.. besides Wings and Dim Shield, when would you ever play more than 3?


Good feedback so far, guys... keep it coming!

Offline Shantu

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg525129#msg525129
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 09:54:11 pm »
:earth
The Earth-benders got off to a quick start, I'm not totally sure if this was due to the benefit they got.

It was a really big boost early in the event, being able to choose your mark while everyone else was stuck with one. But when other people started getting earth levels, the 'gap' was reduced, since everyone now had a choice. What I am trying to say is that 1 mark vs 2 marks to choose from is a lot bigger difference than 2 vs 3.

:water
I predicted the Avatar would come from the Water-benders. Thanks to some stellar rounds from Shantu and the RNG absolutely hating Onizuka, it came true. Thoughts on the 'can't be poisoned rule'?

I didn't find much use for the no poison rule. There was only one instance when I fought a death opponent, in the first round. I even got an autowin from it, but still lost. I'd say it wasn't significant, but other water-benders may have different experiences.

Round scheduling was a little more sporadic than I would have liked, but in some rounds I was put in a position where only half the games had been played.
To partially fix this, the in-element tournament will be broken up into rounds, instead of the tourney as a whole.

The rounds will have to be kinda short though, otherwise it will drag on even longer.

Randomization of elements was a main part of this event, as :earth and :water both directly affected this.
Maybe the elements could be separated into 'tiers', so that you're guaranteed to get a top tier element?
Banning of cards I don't like.
Tiers are highly subjective so I don't really like them. For example, most people would put Death in Tier 3 (as shown in that tier topic somewhere, not long ago) but I would put it at Tier 2.
But how would you do it? If you have no water levels, you get 2 elements. Would they come from the top1 and top 2 tiers? And would a 3rd element always come from Tier 3?

3 shield limit.. besides Wings and Dim Shield, when would you ever play more than 3?
Big bad stalls, like a Miracle/Stone skin stall. Drawing 3 shields out of 40+ is hard, though it still worked. There was also a round where I really wanted to have more Bonewalls..

Now I really need to stop throwing feedback around, too many walls of text.

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Re: The Avatar - Feedback and Suggestions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42188.msg525387#msg525387
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 05:48:45 pm »
Do I have a say in this?? since I join this event quite late, subbing rootranger

from the feedback here, I also strongly believe that earlier rounds are a stepping stone. but I do not think I have much say in this since I miss them.
Rng plays a role in choosing elements and stuff, because I have a few rounds where I can make a deck which opponent cannot beat, and yet lose to certain decks which I cannot find an answer.

when i join this, people start looking for subs. Me myself also notice it become difficult to win in later rounds when others have a good stepping stone already. but this event is interesting, and to be avatar, well you need luck to be chosen too :)
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