Post by: Jappert on July 31, 2011, 07:34:10 am
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1340/firedecks.jpg)
Problem is, if all we do is complain, nothing will change. We need to start beating these decks down and I don't care how many losses I'll get vs mono aether decks, novabows or whatever, as long as I can get some wins vs :fire -decks.
We basically need two teams. One to beat down firestalls and one to deal with the immorushes. I know it will get tough and there is no consistent way to beat these decks a 100% of the time. But we can do better then 91-3 at least!
It's time for action.... Who's with me! (ps. let's use this topic for creating the best possible anti-cremation rush or anti-firestall)
Post by: Jappert on July 31, 2011, 07:45:21 am
- Steammachines don't die easily to their CC.
- Icelance to freeze the fahrenheits or to give killing blows. (better to chain freeze em when things get tough then to explode)
- Explosion for SoG's or nasty fireshields, we can't possibly pack enough though.
- Good luck!
STATS:
1-0 (dropped a firestall from #35 to #48)
1-1 (Firebolts....)
2-1 (won thanks to a cointoss!)
3-1 (killed nantukoshade's fire rush, those icebolts are lovely, and so was his low HP)
Post by: Fluffboll on July 31, 2011, 10:53:08 pm
Post by: wavedash on July 31, 2011, 11:23:57 pm
Post by: petersenk on August 01, 2011, 12:23:55 am
Post by: Camoninja on August 01, 2011, 12:35:09 am
Post by: Acsabi44 on August 01, 2011, 12:37:23 am
Personally I see nothing wrong with it. It is not a problem, it is an effect. An effect of fire being the most badass ;)
Post by: Onizuka on August 01, 2011, 03:07:02 am
Post by: johannhowitzer on August 01, 2011, 03:22:45 am
During Phase 1's Task 1 of Light Trials, this deck did very well against fire decks.
Post by: SnoWeb on August 01, 2011, 09:19:07 am
Edit: not allowable advertisement removed.
Post by: Bootsza on August 30, 2011, 07:02:48 am
I am going to try Jappert and JH's suggested decks (plus some ideas of my own) for an extended grinding session on gold and platinum to try and break as many firestalls as I can.
Post by: SnoWeb on August 30, 2011, 08:37:21 am
OK there is an obvious domination of fire decks but it is because these decks are usable without brainpower. The AI play them better because the fire cards are generally simpler to play. Also It is difficult to play a deck which is good against immo-rush and fire stall. There are some but not much. Finally you can see that if you do something specifically against fire rush and stall you'll have more SNova rush and poison deck ...
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/snoweb10.jpg)
I repeat myself but I believe the solution is more on having card able to soft-counter SoG, immolation and/or SN. With the coming of the new shards I would really like to see cards going in this direction.
Post by: Bootsza on August 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
I agree with you about new cards bringing greater balance to the game but until then it will bring me great personal satisfaction to try and find a versatile counter and then to plunder the Arena with it.
Post by: SnoWeb on August 30, 2011, 08:44:45 am
Post by: Bootsza on August 30, 2011, 08:46:41 am
Post by: Calindu on August 30, 2011, 09:10:49 am
Post by: Bonestorm on August 30, 2011, 01:53:19 pm
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/snoweb10.jpg)Just to point out that my deck had no SoG, Cremation or Supernovas. Fire is overly powerful as it is - it's hard to balance an element that has been powerful for so long. I agree that the three cards you listed are currently overpowered in today's game though.
I repeat myself but I believe the solution is more on having card able to soft-counter SoG, immolation and/or SN. With the coming of the new shards I would really like to see cards going in this direction.
Post by: SnoWeb on August 30, 2011, 02:28:16 pm
Just to point out that my deck had no SoG, Cremation or Supernovas.Which means it is neither a Firestall not an immorush. It is then perfectly fine. You are allowed to put fire decks sometimes.
I don't think fire is more powerful in general. I think it is better played by the AI due to it's zombified base strategy.
8 :fire + 5 :entropy + 5 :death + 4 :darkness + 2 :aether + 1 :earth = 25 and the :earth deck is climbing ...
edit: I just saw that said earth deck was an immo-grabo-rush deck ... sic!
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/snoweb11.jpg)
Post by: Jappert on August 30, 2011, 02:50:54 pm
I also found my suggested steammachine deck is alot less succesfull then a poisonstall with bonewalls.
I also found that Bonestorms deck is no firestall/immorush and I therefore lost against him 4 times! (not on purpose since I was trying to get my own fire mark based deck on #1)
EDIT:
Having alot of fun with this atm!
Post by: Artois on August 30, 2011, 06:54:28 pm
Post by: SnoWeb on August 31, 2011, 08:05:32 am
This deck is also quite efficient against the various Ghostmares ... Have fun.
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/mitope10.jpg)
A day after the fire decks start to fall and what comes next? Death and Entropy obviously ...
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/snoweb12.jpg)
Post by: Bootsza on August 31, 2011, 08:25:24 am
Lets deal with :death and :entropy later ;)
Post by: PlayerOa on August 31, 2011, 01:06:06 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/VRCT0.jpg)
Post by: poperekov on August 31, 2011, 01:40:14 pm
omg fire invaders :D
edit: oops didnt see last post :DD
Post by: Rember on August 31, 2011, 03:16:59 pm
Three in a row! What do I win?
You guys are slacking. :P
Post by: Djhopper :) on August 31, 2011, 03:18:01 pm
Post by: SnoWeb on September 01, 2011, 06:15:25 am
Just want to throw a pic here I just took:All these persons received a fire card with the oracle. If you do and you can build an efficient fire deck, you'll climb up the LeaderBoard quasi automatically. No need to see the picture three times to understand that their is an imbalance toward certain elements (Fire first but entropy and death too in a less drastic manner). The only thing we can hope for is that Zanz hear our call and give us more tools (i.e. cards) to restore the equilibrium. If not better be use to see red ...
(http://i.imgur.com/VRCT0.jpg)
Loving the updates on Leaderboards SnoWeb!Just for you then, Bootsza:
Lets deal with :death and :entropy later ;)
Made this morning just after Oracle time: 7 :fire + 1 :earth (being an immograborush) + 5 :entropy + 1 :aether + 4 :death + 5 :darkness + 2 :water (newcomers) = 25
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/snoweb13.jpg)
Post by: Jappert on September 01, 2011, 09:55:36 am
Thanks for the update Sno.
Post by: Bootsza on September 01, 2011, 10:14:33 am
Thanks for the updates. Jappert's poison / bonewall deck is working best for me at the moment.
Post by: Calindu on September 01, 2011, 10:15:28 am
The :aether deck is an fractix with crap load of control.Just want to throw a pic here I just took:All these persons received a fire card with the oracle. If you do and you can build an efficient fire deck, you'll climb up the LeaderBoard quasi automatically. No need to see the picture three times to understand that their is an imbalance toward certain elements (Fire first but entropy and death too in a less drastic manner). The only thing we can hope for is that Zanz hear our call and give us more tools (i.e. cards) to restore the equilibrium. If not better be use to see red ...
(http://i.imgur.com/VRCT0.jpg)Loving the updates on Leaderboards SnoWeb!Just for you then, Bootsza:
Lets deal with :death and :entropy later ;)
Made this morning just after Oracle time: 7 :fire + 1 :earth (being an immograborush) + 5 :entropy + 1 :aether + 4 :death + 5 :darkness + 2 :water (newcomers) = 25
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/snoweb13.jpg)
Post by: Jappert on September 01, 2011, 10:31:16 am
Yep, I think it is working :)Didn't work at all for me on the long term, had quite a few matches where a single bonewall would mean I win :(
Thanks for the updates. Jappert's poison / bonewall deck is working best for me at the moment.
Trying to counter Firerushes with this now: Dic's Firebeater+
Post by: Bootsza on September 02, 2011, 07:09:25 am
Post by: SnoWeb on September 02, 2011, 08:44:28 am
Yep, I think it is working :)Not really
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/nightm10.jpg)
Post by: Puppenmaedchen on September 02, 2011, 10:23:23 am
But as Bonestorm, no SoGs, no Cremations, no SNovas. And its not a Firestall either. Still not good though?The :aether deck is an fractix with crap load of control.Just want to throw a pic here I just took:All these persons received a fire card with the oracle. If you do and you can build an efficient fire deck, you'll climb up the LeaderBoard quasi automatically. No need to see the picture three times to understand that their is an imbalance toward certain elements (Fire first but entropy and death too in a less drastic manner). The only thing we can hope for is that Zanz hear our call and give us more tools (i.e. cards) to restore the equilibrium. If not better be use to see red ...
(http://i.imgur.com/VRCT0.jpg)Loving the updates on Leaderboards SnoWeb!Just for you then, Bootsza:
Lets deal with :death and :entropy later ;)
Made this morning just after Oracle time: 7 :fire + 1 :earth (being an immograborush) + 5 :entropy + 1 :aether + 4 :death + 5 :darkness + 2 :water (newcomers) = 25
(http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/10/08/58/46/snoweb13.jpg)
Post by: SnoWeb on September 02, 2011, 10:47:18 am
But as Bonestorm, no SoGs, no Cremations, no SNovas. And its not a Firestall either. Still not good though?It's fine don't worry. The idea is not to forbid any fire deck. We would like the favour the variety ... Being the only fractix in the top 25 is fine. The problem is also the very large Fire domination. As a matter of fact, Fractix happen to be a fire deck ...
Post by: Puppenmaedchen on September 02, 2011, 10:54:10 am
edit: grammar
Post by: Pineapple on September 02, 2011, 11:09:37 am
If I got more variety from the oracle I'd go for it, but its been phoenix, graboid and 7 different shields throughout the last days *roll*What's wrong with shields?
edit: grammar
Post by: Puppenmaedchen on September 02, 2011, 11:28:01 am
Ontopic: None of the posted decks works out for me in the long run. Even with the Bonewall-Decks I lose quite often.
Post by: Bootsza on September 02, 2011, 12:25:31 pm
Post by: SnoWeb on September 02, 2011, 12:29:29 pm
Yeah, I think a bigger dune scorpion deck is needed... if it is a potential answer at all...The problem is that this deck lacks defence as it is. You might want some SoG or play an entropy version with antimatter and pandemonium. Try Eternal Chaos for example it's quite reliable.
Post by: Jappert on September 02, 2011, 01:35:30 pm
I tried eternal chaos alot aswell. Nothing beats a platinum immorush with a good draw though....Yeah, I think a bigger dune scorpion deck is needed... if it is a potential answer at all...The problem is that this deck lacks defence as it is. You might want some SoG or play an entropy version with antimatter and pandemonium. Try Eternal Chaos for example it's quite reliable.
Post by: pervepic on September 02, 2011, 03:22:41 pm
Post by: Bootsza on September 02, 2011, 03:54:23 pm
Post by: ndclub on September 02, 2011, 04:37:26 pm
Post by: omegareaper7 on September 02, 2011, 05:55:12 pm
I fear that because arena is not considered for balancing that we will not get any demanded changes from zanz. However everyone has to agree that fire has long been far too versatile of a color in PVP and all cards are above average in strength(which alone should be enough to balance it). Putting a 3x mark on top of all this is insane because I cant think of any other deck type that still has a good chance to beat decks specifically built to counter it.Not all of fires cards are above average though........ Ash eater, fire spirit, i dare say even crimson dragon is balanced. Its just that fire has everything except for healing. Yes a couple cards could be nerfed a little bit, but overall, fire doesn't need to be nerfed.
Post by: zombie0 on September 05, 2011, 02:43:05 pm
Post by: Djhopper :) on September 05, 2011, 02:56:19 pm
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4139/fireleague.png)Fire needs nerfs :S
Post by: Camoninja on September 05, 2011, 04:57:21 pm
Post by: Jaymanfu on September 05, 2011, 06:19:11 pm
Post by: Jappert on September 05, 2011, 06:39:07 pm
Ya Ive gotten firebolt 3 times in the last 2 weeks and made the exact same really lame deck :x I feel bad but.... until it gets changed its gonna ruleThat's sad, if people keep reasoning like this we're never getting rid of these decks.
Why is it so hard to find that little tiny bit of originality and inventiveness from within yourself? Try to build something on your own! Don't copy other decks or use the same boring deck over and over.
Sigh...
Post by: CCCombobreaker on September 05, 2011, 07:03:47 pm
Post by: ndclub on September 05, 2011, 11:05:15 pm
If someone can convince me that fire as a whole is balanced for even regular pvp I sure would like to hear it.
Post by: Elite arbiter on September 06, 2011, 03:48:23 am
Arena is interesting, and in my experiments with my decks I'm noticing that the success of a deck is very proportional to the amount of fire in said deck. Even without doing Immorush or SoG and with a Fire Buckler as the oracle card, arguably the worst oracle card for it, my deck is still 6-0 so far. So it seems any fire rules. not just firestall and immorush. Of course, that might partly be because I focused in a perhaps less tapped into obnoxious feature.
(Also we know that the rest of them on the top page are either pandebonium, speed poison, or novarush)
Post by: Jappert on September 06, 2011, 05:27:54 am
I'm one to build a counter and deal with matters myself.
What we need is a decent counter, no nerfing! Build decks, test them, defeat immorushes/firestalls and tell us about it.
Post by: DarkArk on September 06, 2011, 06:41:05 am
What we need is a decent counter, no nerfing! Build decks, test them, defeat immorushes/firestalls and tell us about it.that would be much easier to do if the trainer got an arena update, id be all for building new decks and testing them if i knew i wouldn't loose any score or electrum heck i build my arena deck and play against it at least a dozen times before i finish tweaking it! but it's not the same as playing in the actual arena
Post by: Rember on September 06, 2011, 06:55:12 am
Just import ai6 decks? Tons of decks have been posted so far if you have no idea what to import.What we need is a decent counter, no nerfing! Build decks, test them, defeat immorushes/firestalls and tell us about it.that would be much easier to do if the trainer got an arena update, id be all for building new decks and testing them if i knew i wouldn't loose any score or electrum heck i build my arena deck and play against it at least a dozen times before i finish tweaking it! but it's not the same as playing in the actual arena
Even in the real game it's nigh impossible to lose elec/score in arena. :P
Post by: SnoWeb on September 06, 2011, 07:35:44 am
I understand what Jappert said about building deck specially efficient against fire decks. It might be a acceptable short term solution but It does not solve the problem: monotony. First not everybody reads the forum and/or is able to build such efficient decks. Second, even if you can you still have to fight a great majority of those decks.
I realised today that some people are so unimaginative that even when they don't get a fire card from the oracle, they keep the same 30 card fire deck and put five dead oracle cards to go to the 35 card limit! They might even have a more efficient deck that way that if they tried to create one from scratch (you know brainless is brainless). This should not be.
Post by: The_Mormegil on September 06, 2011, 07:39:31 am
Post by: SnoWeb on September 06, 2011, 07:45:32 am
Post by: Rember on September 06, 2011, 08:23:42 am
Random proposal: mark is of your Oracle Card's Element. Fixed.I welcome our new PSNbow overlords.
Post by: pikachufan2164 on September 06, 2011, 08:32:42 am
Also, Burning Pillar, Fire Pend, Fire Bolt, Rage Potion, Fahrenheit, Deflag, Fire Shield, Sanctuary = o hai thar FirestallRandom proposal: mark is of your Oracle Card's Element. Fixed.I welcome our new PSNbow overlords.
Cremation rush (via Immo, Golem, Gemfinder) would still work as they already do.
Post by: sharkweekk on September 08, 2011, 06:32:17 pm
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4139/fireleague.png)I'm glad someone got a screencap of my brief time at #1 :D. I do get to be a little bit proud that I had top decks in gold and platinum leagues, even if they were fire decks. At least my decks were my own making, instead of copying someone else's. My trick was immolation rush plus lots of control to take advantage of double draw as much as possible.
The reason, I believe that fire decks do so well in platinum is the fact that they are helped so much by double draws. Their control cards are cheap and one-off type cards that are boosted by being able to keep the card advantage when used. The creatures are fragile, but when the opponent uses a control card to kill one, they are only helping the arena deck keep card advantage. If they try to use control on a stick, the fire control cards can destroy it very quickly. Add that to the AI making fewer dumb mistakes with fire, and it's no wonder fire dominates.
Post by: gumbeh on September 09, 2011, 08:36:29 pm
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4139/fireleague.png)Cute.
I still believe the worst firestalls would be kneecapped if deck size wasn't doubled. I.E. when you buy Double Draw, you get Double Draw. Your deck size restriction goes up from 35/60 to 70/120. If you want a 120 card deck, you have to pack it with 120 cards yourself, and you can only have 6x SoG, 6x Fire Lance, and 6x Sanctuary, not 12.
The other cards which became very efficient in the AI side of the arena environment (the denial one: BH, Silence, Nightmare, EQ ...) already received a nerf (no chaining of more than 2)When did this happen? I don't see it in the patch notes on the wiki.
Post by: Rember on September 09, 2011, 11:26:46 pm
During beta zanz introduced 'guilt' so that you can't chain any of the mentioned cards more than twice in a row without a turn or something in between. I guess you'll have to look in the 1.28 patch info thread for his post.The other cards which became very efficient in the AI side of the arena environment (the denial one: BH, Silence, Nightmare, EQ ...) already received a nerf (no chaining of more than 2)When did this happen? I don't see it in the patch notes on the wiki.
Post by: gumbeh on September 10, 2011, 01:26:53 am
I'm gonna put up a silence / BH deck to test whether the guilt is overall or per card. I.E., can the AI do Silence, Silence, BH (silence guilt) - or must it do Silence, Silence, (guilt), BH+Silence. We'll see how it goes.
Post by: Rember on September 10, 2011, 01:35:28 am
I wasn't able to find a zanz post mentioning it, but google showed the "Guilt" term showing up often enough here and there.http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,27523.msg383811#msg383811
I'm gonna put up a silence / BH deck to test whether the guilt is overall or per card. I.E., can the AI do Silence, Silence, BH (silence guilt) - or must it do Silence, Silence, (guilt), BH+Silence. We'll see how it goes.
Just googled zanz's name and the aforementioned cards. :P
Cool experiment idea though, would be interesting to know the results since there isn't much detail about it.
Post by: couponlady on September 10, 2011, 04:59:15 am
I don't want a nerf either. We just have to admit that some cards in the arena environment are more efficient than in the classical PvP one. Those cards (IMO: SoG, immolation and SN) remain without a good counter (in the player side of the arena environment BH happen to be too slow to be really efficient without nymph). With such counter cards a greater number of deck would be efficient against the unimaginative fire decks (immorush and fire stall). Would be left only the most efficient imaginative and hot one (which is perfectly fine). The other cards which became very efficient in the AI side of the arena environment (the denial one: BH, Silence, Nightmare, EQ ...) already received a nerf (no chaining of more than 2) and already have counter cards (sanctuary, PA etc...).It's not just Fire decks that are the problem. A lot of times I get stuck playing against rainbow decks with lots of good cheap efficient creatures. There are many decks that use cards like Supernova. Once the opponent plays supernova I already know I probably lost game. The current #1 Gold Deck in the Arena is a Ghost of the Past Nightmare deck. It seems like these nightmare decks have become more popular. I was playing against a dark deck earlier and realized he was playing with Nightmare's. Once the opponent played some Time Pillars/Towers I knew I was probably going to loose. I wonder what card these people get from the Oracle? It seems like more people are making decks with Ghost of the Past and Nightmare.
I understand what Jappert said about building deck specially efficient against fire decks. It might be a acceptable short term solution but It does not solve the problem: monotony. First not everybody reads the forum and/or is able to build such efficient decks. Second, even if you can you still have to fight a great majority of those decks.
I realized today that some people are so unimaginative that even when they don't get a fire card from the oracle, they keep the same 30 card fire deck and put five dead oracle cards to go to the 35 card limit! They might even have a more efficient deck that way that if they tried to create one from scratch (you know brainless is brainless). This should not be.
Last card I got from the Oracle was a Fog Shield. I know it's not very creative but I decided to make a fire deck with Fog Shield. I figured since an upgraded Fog Shield cost only 1 it could work well with Immolation. Are the Sog's what makes the fire decks difficult to beat? Is it the Immolation's? Is it the big creatures like Fire Golem, Crimson Dragon or Fire Spirit?
Post by: macgawel on September 10, 2011, 05:32:17 am
I don't want a nerf either. We just have to admit that some cards in the arena environment are more efficient than in the classical PvP one. Those cards (IMO: SoG, immolation and SN) remain without a good counter (in the player side of the arena environment BH happen to be too slow to be really efficient without nymph).SoG gets some counters.
IMHO, the quanta-providers are so powerful for one reason :
They instantly give you quantum.
So the only one quantum counter - BH - is pretty useless, since it can affect quantum only at your turn.
You take quantum spells and some good - and cheap - cards and you can make a good deck.
A nerf could be to delay the quantum given, so that you can use it the turn you play your spell - at the end of your turn for exemple.
Post by: Siweisun on September 10, 2011, 03:58:10 pm
For quanta control, there's also pest and discord, but yes, Cremation could use a nerf. Watching the opponent play a lava destroyer and two minor pheonixes on turn one is not fun.I don't want a nerf either. We just have to admit that some cards in the arena environment are more efficient than in the classical PvP one. Those cards (IMO: SoG, immolation and SN) remain without a good counter (in the player side of the arena environment BH happen to be too slow to be really efficient without nymph).SoG gets some counters.
IMHO, the quanta-providers are so powerful for one reason :
They instantly give you quantum.
So the only one quantum counter - BH - is pretty useless, since it can affect quantum only at your turn.
You take quantum spells and some good - and cheap - cards and you can make a good deck.
A nerf could be to delay the quantum given, so that you can use it the turn you play your spell - at the end of your turn for exemple.
Post by: Siweisun on September 10, 2011, 05:14:50 pm
Post by: hainkarga on September 14, 2011, 06:59:12 am
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9302/firepr.jpg)
Post by: gumbeh on September 14, 2011, 08:30:16 am
delightfulXeno and I tried to do something about this yesterday, but we just kept running into non-fire decks.
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9302/firepr.jpg)
Skimming the rankings, i got the impression that many people might be banning themselves from using fire for one reason or another. At the time, it looked like only the top 50 or so players were primarily fire, and the majority had a wider spread of elements.
Kinda neat if only a few people are still doing that crap. Only the fire fans, players who are obsessed with using the optimum strategy, or jerks, perhaps?
Post by: hainkarga on September 14, 2011, 10:37:41 am
Good job, you just managed to change platinum leader.delightfulXeno and I tried to do something about this yesterday, but we just kept running into non-fire decks.
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9302/firepr.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1968/unledku.gif)
0h wait.. :p
You can't call these people jerks tho. They are just doing what they are allowed to do and what sounds logical. You cant accuse people of jerkness only because the rankings are all fire and bad taste to you. Its the same & natural in every game. I see this fire domination issue hard to fix without limiting game play too much, which generally sucks.
Post by: zombie0 on September 14, 2011, 01:58:37 pm
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on September 14, 2011, 11:23:22 pm
I've almost completely stopped using fire in all my decks because its so lame. (To make it seem allright to my brain, I can only power fire cards with upped Fireflies. Everything else is uncool.)
I'm a little slow, and short of upped cards though. Any chance a decent list could be made of the best decks to do this with? Not even close to the upped cards needed for most of them.
Post by: gumbeh on September 15, 2011, 12:44:31 am
Note I said OR jerks. It's still a somewhat baseless assumption, but because there are so many fewer fire decks than last I checked, and the heaviest concentration is in a small top-level bracket, I feel it's likely that most of those people are EITHER:Good job, you just managed to change platinum leader.delightfulXeno and I tried to do something about this yesterday, but we just kept running into non-fire decks.
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9302/firepr.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1968/unledku.gif)
0h wait.. :p
You can't call these people jerks tho. They are just doing what they are allowed to do and what sounds logical. You cant accuse people of jerkness only because the rankings are all fire and bad taste to you. Its the same & natural in every game. I see this fire domination issue hard to fix without limiting game play too much, which generally sucks.
- jerks, who make firestalls with the knowledge that it will annoy peopleoptimizers, who can't stand to put up anything less than the best possible deck (which is typically fire)fire fans, who aren't mean but just love fire
Post by: aluba on September 15, 2011, 03:16:32 am
Further more,i am doubt these makers can through the arena to win the trophy?
Without the system bonus like 3x power,double draw..etc.
I think they can't pass the arena if they met their own deck!
Last,fxck fire twice!!!!
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on September 15, 2011, 04:09:56 am
DrunkDestroyer's sentiment matches up exactly with what I think is causing there to be fewer fire decks, even if they're dominating the top levels. DD, you might find good, fun non-fire ideas in the "good lasting arena decks" topic (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28523.0).:P, I actually meant offensive decks, as in for playing against the arena, taking them down actively instead of passively.
I have fun making my own decks, even if they end up going 0-2 and kicked straight out to some speedbow grinder.
Post by: Siweisun on September 15, 2011, 09:38:38 pm
You're forgetting one kind of people: the kind that has never looked on the forums, so they have no idea how much people hate fire.Note I said OR jerks. It's still a somewhat baseless assumption, but because there are so many fewer fire decks than last I checked, and the heaviest concentration is in a small top-level bracket, I feel it's likely that most of those people are EITHER:Good job, you just managed to change platinum leader.delightfulXeno and I tried to do something about this yesterday, but we just kept running into non-fire decks.
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9302/firepr.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1968/unledku.gif)
0h wait.. :p
You can't call these people jerks tho. They are just doing what they are allowed to do and what sounds logical. You cant accuse people of jerkness only because the rankings are all fire and bad taste to you. Its the same & natural in every game. I see this fire domination issue hard to fix without limiting game play too much, which generally sucks.jerks, who make firestalls with the knowledge that it will annoy peopleoptimizers, who can't stand to put up anything less than the best possible deck (which is typically fire)fire fans, who aren't mean but just love fire
DrunkDestroyer's sentiment matches up exactly with what I think is causing there to be fewer fire decks, even if they're dominating the top levels. DD, you might find good, fun non-fire ideas in the "good lasting arena decks" topic (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28523.0).
Post by: Jappert on September 19, 2011, 08:07:26 pm
AM's were useless here ofc and I had a fairly good draw (both PA and Jade in starting hand, had to wait for my pulvy).
Still a very satisfying win and the firefighter strikes again!
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/65/firestallextinguished.jpg)
Dropped this guy from rank 5 to rank 8. That'll teach him! (700+ elec, yay)
Post by: zombie0 on September 19, 2011, 09:44:42 pm
Post by: Camoninja on September 20, 2011, 12:14:18 am
Post by: ndclub on September 20, 2011, 12:24:15 pm
Imagine those bolts trembling in fear when the Shard of Sacrifice makes it into the game! :DFirestalls rely on stalling. If you shard of sacrifice your stalling for them, they simply wait for all of the SOS to be gone and its back to being one turn KO'ed.
Post by: SnoWeb on September 20, 2011, 01:17:14 pm
Firestalls do not have purify ...Imagine those bolts trembling in fear when the Shard of Sacrifice makes it into the game! :DFirestalls rely on stalling. If you shard of sacrifice your stalling for them, they simply wait for all of the SOS to be gone and its back to being one turn KO'ed.
Post by: Calindu on September 20, 2011, 01:46:30 pm
I decided to give CCYB a try in Platinum Arena, I use a modification with PA and Jade Shield wich apparantly works quite well vs firestalls!Suddenly flying fahrens.
AM's were useless here ofc and I had a fairly good draw (both PA and Jade in starting hand, had to wait for my pulvy).
Still a very satisfying win and the firefighter strikes again!
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/65/firestallextinguished.jpg)
Dropped this guy from rank 5 to rank 8. That'll teach him! (700+ elec, yay)
Post by: ndclub on September 20, 2011, 08:54:21 pm
But they generally SoG out-heal enough poison to outlast every single SoS you got. Yes, they are getting a 1 hp per turn nerf but we shall see if it changes things all that much. Were also still not sure that the final version of SoS is survivable chained 6 times.(if they increase the hp loss as they were talking) Yes Fahrenheit would heal you back but in a PvP setting that would seem to be a player mistake.Firestalls do not have purify ...Imagine those bolts trembling in fear when the Shard of Sacrifice makes it into the game! :DFirestalls rely on stalling. If you shard of sacrifice your stalling for them, they simply wait for all of the SOS to be gone and its back to being one turn KO'ed.
Post by: Bootsza on September 21, 2011, 07:51:06 pm
It is a bit slow but I am having some good results against Firestalls and all kinds of standard arena decks. I am thinking about adding in some deflags for SoGs and other tricksy permanents.
Any thoughts?
Post by: pulli23 on September 21, 2011, 09:08:53 pm
But really, a half-upped (everything except the phoenixes) phoenix/gabroid rush I've never had any problems at all with firestalls. - Heck the AI seems to always waste the fireballs on my phoenixes.
Much more boring are those aether decks: if they get lucky and a 4-5 stream of aether shields is gg, I can't think of a single deck that is good "on average" and also good vs aether.
Post by: ralouf on September 21, 2011, 09:11:09 pm
Post by: redium on September 21, 2011, 09:24:41 pm
That said I have a mean monolife mitosis deck up that is 8/0. I hope that others don't always just do immorushes just to win or bank.
Post by: TheForbiddenOracle on September 21, 2011, 09:29:07 pm
I stole this from the strategy thread for Decay:IMO it's really too slow to compete with any kind of rush, and with only 4 sources of damage it's gonna take a while to get enough damage to win and you need 4 cards to start the combo (assuming your opponent has CC). I even managed to lose to a 1hp deck... Black Hole, Gravity Nymphs, and nearly any kind of rush. I don't know if I'm just unlucky but I still have not won with it. Maybe add some Pandamoniums?
It is a bit slow but I am having some good results against Firestalls and all kinds of standard arena decks. I am thinking about adding in some deflags for SoGs and other tricksy permanents.
Any thoughts?
Post by: ralouf on September 21, 2011, 09:30:12 pm
Post by: pulli23 on September 21, 2011, 10:20:56 pm
A deck with pulvy will kill aether deck (JMZ for example). My gold league killer with discord/BH to slow or prevent shield was good too (and I had 2 steal and one deflag too). You can also try to had a momentum/unstoppable in your deck, specially if you have growing creatures.Well I'm running 2 deflags.. It's just ragequitting when I see 4+ shields in a row. Might change my arsenic by a pulvy someday!
Post by: Jappert on September 22, 2011, 05:36:23 am
Take your Dim shield complaints elsewhere! This topic is about Firestalls and Immorushes!
Post by: dragonsdemesne on September 22, 2011, 06:41:20 am
Personally, I don't see fire stall as being as much of a problem as immorush, but maybe it's because immorush does better against my style of decks (usually slower rainbow control types) than fire stall does. Also, most of the cards that I think are the biggest culprits are used more in immorush than firestall.
Two of the worst offending cards in my opinion:
Explosion - This is just too cheap. It's so cheap, you can splash it in other decks by just making your mark fire in an otherwise mono deck. When compared to other permanent destruction (Steal, Pulverizer, Butterfly Effect, lucky mutants) I think it should cost at least 1 fire more in both forms. (Granted, this is also used in firestall)
Cremation - This is really powerful. In fact, most of the games I beat immorush, it's because their draw had few or no cremations. It could be changed to only work on fire creatures, or give less quanta on nonfire creatures, or require 1 fire to actually play it, so that it either takes 1 extra turn to play it in pillarless decks, or you have to use something else (nova, upped tower) to power it out on turn 1. Many times, with just one more turn, I'd be able to stabilize against such decks, or outrush them if that was my strategy.
Also, fire has the creatures with the highest offense/lowest defense ratio. This means that, in the absence of creature removal, fire is the best element. However, this also is one of its weaknesses, and can be taken advantage of by cards like otyugh, antimatter, and so on. I think that crimson dragon is reasonable, though strong, for instance, but I do think that minor phoenix and lava destroyer are too cheap. Minor phoenix should either cost 1 more fire to play, or be 3/1 at the current cost. Lava Destroyer is just... scary :p It should cost at least 1 more fire to play as well; it certainly should cost more than the unupped version, which is still a strong card, but more fair.
Well, that's my two cents. At least my lava destroyer arena deck is slightly unique, or at least as unique as can be done with such a card. It's got the core of the deck we all know and hate (6x destroyer, 6x gemfinder, 6x cremation, some explosions) but it's got a few cards on the side that aren't usually in such decks. Even if I'm going to follow an established archetype, which I try not to do, I will stamp my own style on it because I don't like netdecking; it shows a lack of skill, and often, they aren't optimized anyway.