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Offline CCCombobreakerTopic starter

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361186#msg361186
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 04:22:50 pm »
The first deck is 100% countered by this (if the AI doesn´t draw only 1 card because of a full hand). x
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Hahaha.
It is true that this all QT deck would probably deck an oracleBow if the oracle doesn't give a creature... but if the oracle card was a creature then the all QT fails pretty hard.  But I had already added a note in my original post pondering this decks functionality if you don't spin a creature.

And the first attempt can be countered by a deck with flying accelereted Titans.
Accelated titans probably is a good counterdeck,  if the oracleBow doesn't get any RTs early... but there are 6 in the deck,  so I think the oracleBow has at least a chance against any flying weapon based deck.

On a more serious note, your build if far from efficient.  4 hourglasses in a 60 cards deck...seriously?  hourglasses are what make this deck really run.  Think of the times you've beaten rainbow.  It was probably the times that she got few hourglasses out hence a slow start.  Also, your quanta is horribly unbalanced and you have 0 creatures.  Again looking at rainbow, she is evil because she has efficient creatures and the ability to smash your face in.  With no creatures to press them and only the deckout win condition, you give your opponent far too much time to set set up a strategy to win.  You have 11 PC cards while having only 6 CC cards, 3 being soft CC and 3 being slow multi CC.

If you want the most menacing oraclebow blueprint ever, it needs a ton of work.  This may work, but is by no means a most efficient build.
I do think some of this is solid, and adjusted a few things accordingly... but I don't think the deck can support 12 hourglasses, they take up too many permanent slots without giving regen and with only a 2x mark the deck probably can't ever sustain using more than 2.  I added a couple creatures to the deck because spinning a non creature does make the deck into just some lame ragequit deckout deck.  It also would have been countered by a 60pillar deck as teffy pointed out.  I changed the soft CC to hard CC, but I think I will regret it... the hard CC doesn't always get things I really want off the field, and the way the deck is set up is to choke out the opponent, and have enough regen to survive whatever they got out before you PCed them into oblivion.  That said, RTs put a threat on the field back into their hand, and usually they won't be able to replay it.  Even if they do replay it, it lost any buffs they'd have given it. 

I realize the FG rainbow is a really mean FG not just because all the PC but also because it has many angry creatures... but in an unupped rainbow trying to play against fully upped decks, I just don't see the real benefit of throwing in grabbies or other creatures that turn on their CC when I can use more PC to just shut them down.  I also didn't want to just copy an FG.  Rainbow is a mean FG, but I think this deck is even meaner on most occasions.
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Offline Essence

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361194#msg361194
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 04:44:00 pm »
Mad props, CCCB.  (Y? Because I C U.)

No, seriously, this will make it much easier to build a generic Oraclebow counterdeck in the long run.  Please, make the meanest OracleBow you can so that more people will suck in for it and my counterdeck will win that much more often. :)

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361220#msg361220
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 05:48:52 pm »
This deck has no shields. Are you kidding me? This loses so hard to Quinted anything it's not even funny.

Thanks for the idea, though. I'll try to improve this deck.

Offline CCCombobreakerTopic starter

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361223#msg361223
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 05:58:46 pm »
I really think you should test it against what you think will kill it...  Yes, a quinted creature sits on the field all game, but unless they supernova into a quinted creature in the first 2 turns, they will not likely be able to play it or quint it because this deck quanta starves people pretty badly.  This deck also packs ridiculous regen... enough to survive a quinted Lava Golem or forest spirit for a long time, even if they have the quanta to make it grow every turn.

And most decks people farm with run shields, so I would hope the AI would steal one at some point.  If I were to put in any shield, it'd probably be a dissipation field... but unless you did some testing and quinted creatures are really "tearing this deck up", I don't think it needs one.
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Offline Rastafla

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361225#msg361225
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 06:05:51 pm »
I used this deck exclusively for Platinum and i won over most rainbows with it.
Even got 3 wins in a row which were EMs. Was awarded an upped Discord for that.

The stray black holes could probably be swapped for something like another Oty or Overdrive for finishing off people easier.
Most Rainbows manages to get put some if not all sogs (due to upped qunatum towers midgame etc) so it might take a while but once you get rolling the ME is basically guaranteed. and you dont need to fear any shield effects either of some stray mono decks.

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361227#msg361227
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2011, 06:08:36 pm »
I used this deck exclusively for Platinum and i won over most rainbows with it.
Even got 3 wins in a row which were EMs. Was awarded an upped Discord for that.

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I tested a variation of the above deck (without 3x nymphs, but with 6x BH instead) against a tougher version of the OP deck (and by that I mean I built my own skeleton build) and... well, it failed pretty hard. .-.
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Offline Rastafla

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361229#msg361229
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2011, 06:13:23 pm »
I used this deck exclusively for Platinum and i won over most rainbows with it.
Even got 3 wins in a row which were EMs. Was awarded an upped Discord for that.

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I tested a variation of the above deck (without 3x nymphs, but with 6x BH instead) against a tougher version of the OP deck (and by that I mean I built my own skeleton build) and... well, it failed pretty hard. .-.
Yeah i know that wont work with only BH, in each platinumgame i had to use all 3 gravity nymphs every turn in the latter rounds because the sogs and the 200hp pool is a big obstacle. But generally 2 gravity nymphs is usually enough to secure the win.
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Offline MatrimKK

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361237#msg361237
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2011, 06:27:29 pm »
Very nice deck rasta : D
While I'm sure alot of established players have tons of nymphs, this really doesn't offer a general counter. 
This is heavily reliant on establishing a prolonged lock with amber nymph, you cannot achieve this with BHs. 
If you attempt this without a amber nymph lock you will run out of BHs and they will start playing SoG Sanc AM and destroy/steal most of your permanents after the lock is broken.  Without this lock or a bit of luck you are not going to outdamage the healing. 


Offline CCCombobreakerTopic starter

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361238#msg361238
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2011, 06:32:58 pm »
but maybe if you ran more armagios than chargers and landed a few with overdrive you could come out ahead if you can BH lock the oracleBow for a few turns before it breaks free...  Really makes me want to re-include the RTs...  But I am seeing a trend in gravity being hard to work around for the oracleBow. (BH + acceleration are mean)
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Offline Rastafla

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361240#msg361240
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2011, 06:40:00 pm »
I use chargers for one important reason. CC. every rainbow so far have used a little CC, the first charger or oty into play draws this (usually lightning) and as such my nymph is safe. I tried armagio and overdrive but in the end i preferred chargers.
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Offline MatrimKK

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361266#msg361266
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2011, 07:40:16 pm »
BH can not keep it in lock long enough to have armago accel to be a feasible win condition, imo this would fall into the got lucky win condition.
The reason Rasta's deck works so well is the amber nymph lock.  By the time the deck is generating enough quanta to get out of lock he'll generally have drawn a second nymph making -6 each turn to all quanta or drawn a BH to buy more time. 
As he said he'll generally draw out CC with a charger, if it's not safe he can wait to cover his nymph with a black hole. 
Point blank this doesn't work without at least 2 amber nymphs and I'm sure Rasta included 3 as an optimal build (since he has 4)
Props Rasta this is an awesome deck and thanks for sharing : D
But to count a deck that contains 3 ultra rares as a viable counter, no.  Also without the upped quanta sources this deck will generally not out perform a rainbow that focuses on perm denial.  I know, "hey Matrim why don't you have upped quanta sources!"  Easy answer I have ~ 200 ups mostly because I don't sell ups I win from FGs unless I have 6.  I've been playing just over 2 months and assume I'm a fairly average player (who has no nymph lol *sadface*)  While I'm sure plenty of established people have the resources to make counter after counter, I don't think the average player has the resources to do this. 

CCC nothing against you, but you posted this because you didn't feel you could compete to other players in your league when you spun certain cards on oracle.  This was your easy answer and you are now suggesting others to take this route.  How did this you make your situation better?  or do you just plan to post mono gravity counters?

Offline CCCombobreakerTopic starter

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Re: Gold League oracleBow: how to be better than mediocre without trying https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28268.msg361323#msg361323
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2011, 09:19:14 pm »
think about how long it takes the oracleBow to viably kill someone?  Yeah it gets a pretty good lock early, but it is one darn slow deck across the finish line.  2 acellerated armagios get up to 50 damage a piece per turn.  It seems totally feasible to be able to get them out and win 14-18 turns later.  The CC in the oracle bow doesn't really punish this kind of set up.  I realize that "hard counters" to the oracleBow may take a while to work out, and I hope we find some that aren't dependant on 3 ultra rares.  But clearly some decks are working against it because it surely doesn't win all the time.  I suspect rainbow rushes or upped immo-nova rushes work well as they can clog the oracleBows hands with PC while there are no targets for it... slowing it's draw and killing it before it can stack enough regen.

And 200 upgrades in 2 months is so far past average in this game.  I have been playing on and off for over a year and have less than 100 upgraded cards.  Which is one of the important reasons behind this deck... it is an FG level deck with <10 upgraded cards in it.  I know I can't reliably build decks around random cards that can win.  I tried 3 times and failed because people are bringing full upped decks against mediocre decks without upgrades.  When I spun cards that fit into good decks I ran them (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28144.msg384891#msg384891 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28144.msg384891#msg384891)), but if I get a card I can't realistically build around with what I have, then this is a viable fall-back.  If the arena was just about "look we play against player made decks" then I probably would make crazy fun or annoying decks... but the arena is also "look I build a deck and it farms for me", and to that end, why not make sure I am optimizing that aspect of the game? 

How did I make my situation better?  Well, by posting this I probably didn't... but the spirit of the EtG forums is when you discover something effective or useful you share it.  Look CCYB is a good deck, look IGT has a really high FG win rate, grabbow and psnbow are solid pvp1 options.  We don't expect every player that wanders across elements to reinvent everything useful, so we post it here to share that knowledge so others can learn from more than trial and error - community knowledge.  The arena has been implemented, and I swear I am not the only person that got a card and was like "how the heck do I use this?" or "man I thought that deck would work but it went 0-4, I thought this thing was supposed to help me, not just make me frustrated and sad".  I know the top members and active members seem pretty upset because they farm the arena more than the arena farms for them, but for someone with few upgrades but higher score... I hope the arena farms for me.  I play mostly against silver league because I haven't worked out decks with a good win rate vs gold or plat.  The arena isn't supposed to be set up so anyone can farm any league... if it takes ultra rares to farm platinum, that seems pretty legit to me... if it takes full upped well thought out decks to farm gold... yeah, it shouldn't be easy to beat player made FGs, whether they are immo rushes or rainbow control or spiders N wings or whatever.

The arena is still new, its meta is still being developed, there are lots of questions about if changes will be made to what is legal... they already raised the minimum card limit.  Shards may get axed.  QTs may get axed (unlikely though).  I know a lot of people were looking for something new and challenging... and the arena is.  We've both made and seen innovative decks.  We've both lost games and went "really they can do THAT with THAT?"  I know people are worried that oracleBows will take over the arena.. but it is every person who puts up a decks choice: Do I want to make something up?  Do I have the cards to make this work?  If I start farming here and play my own deck 2 or 3 times will it make me want to quit?  Do I think of this deck as my deck that I built that I want to crush its opponents or is this a deck I want people to go "oh, that's neat" as they play against it?  The arena is an asynchronous pvp experience.  When I pvp, I want a deck I expect to win most of the time against most possible matchups, how should my arena deck be different? 

When I build decks for the weekend tourneys, I don't go "oh that looks interesting I hope it works" and get smashed in round 1 by some mode of a deck in the pvp archive (no wait that totally happened my first tourney).  I go look at the archive, think about what people will likely run and build a deck at least has a chance vs immo-nova rush and firestall.  And when people build tourney winning decks we all want to see them, and we use them as reference points when we build decks.  Yeah, most of us still try our hand at innovation... and sometimes "joke decks" win matches, and someone at some point in the past invented the decks that are now "the standard". But usually when people "get serious" the same decks show up over and over, modded slightly to taste or personal experience... the legendary "power" bows that "no one knows what's in it but me".  And being secretive about it has advantages, but it doesn't benefit the community.

This oracleBow is my "arena" powerBow.  It wins 75%+, it makes me money, and instead of hiding it away so that no one else could know... I posted it here.  Everyone can see it, what it has, how it works.  People can use it if they want, people can build counters to it if they want.  It will slowly change and evolve if certain things become serious obstacles... but look, it's right here.  You can say it discourages creativity, but that is up to the people that see it.  They can copy paste the code, just like people can copy paste codes and go into pvp1 or pvp2 or BL or when they farm anything.  Or they can be creative, mod this deck, rework this deck, make their own deck.  I understand why people are reacting differently to this specific instance, and I agree that it is SUPER LAME that this works.  But it works, and people should have access to what works in the arena just as much as to what works anywhere else in this game.
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