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Opponents, Strategy and Decks => The Arena => Topic started by: QuantumT on July 01, 2011, 06:49:40 am

Title: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: QuantumT on July 01, 2011, 06:49:40 am
I think there need to be a couple banned cards in arena, namely Supernova and Quantum Towers. The problem with them is that people have decided that they'll just toss whatever the oracle card is into the same old rainbow deck because it can handle some dead cards. The result is that at least half the decks you play against are basically the same thing.

If Supernova and Quantum Towers were banned, it would force people to try and use their cards, or at least give a bit more variety.


Different solution proposed by majofa.

Just a thought. When the Oracle spins it lights up X amount of elements. You can only use cards of those elements in your deck. (Any MARK) ... X could be anywhere from 2-12. The element of the card you get is always lit up.

(forgive my poor editing skills)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd209966/oracle_wheel.jpg)

Thoughts on this?
Picture of how it might look by Xenocidius:

(http://i53.tinypic.com/2ns3ok0.jpg)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Flama on July 01, 2011, 06:54:32 am
Totally agree.

The 5x Oracle cards are mandatory, IMO, 'cause of changing decks. But if you add QT's, SN's to it, you just change those 5x Oracle cards and keep your BH/EQ/Discord/SN decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: TimerClock14 on July 01, 2011, 07:02:47 am
No.

That makes the arena biased. Unbiased arena > Biased arena.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Isei on July 01, 2011, 07:38:09 am
zanz did talk about adding some "guilt" to the AI.  Something like, they won't chain the same spells multiple turns in a row.  This could help balance out supernovas, potentially.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: EvaRia on July 01, 2011, 07:43:10 am
No.

That makes the arena biased. Unbiased arena > Biased arena.
What, and having every single deck used the same cards is unbiased?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Sevs on July 01, 2011, 07:46:34 am
I think it would make decks much more unique. and it seems that many events focus on creating decks with restrictive deckbuilding. this would add to that. I would support that.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: QuantumT on July 01, 2011, 07:48:36 am
zanz did talk about adding some "guilt" to the AI.  Something like, they won't chain the same spells multiple turns in a row.  This could help balance out supernovas, potentially.
The guilt (nice term for it btw) only covers BH, EQ, silence, and nightmare.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: nilsieboy on July 01, 2011, 07:49:12 am
i'd just like the shards being banned, it doesn't make sense to see decks with 12 SoG.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: TimerClock14 on July 01, 2011, 07:58:27 am
EDIT: RESERVED FOR MOAR WEEL THOUGHT OUT POST
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Isei on July 01, 2011, 08:27:06 am
The guilt (nice term for it btw) only covers BH, EQ, silence, and nightmare.
That doesn't mean it couldn't be extended to other cards.  The main question is if it would benefit the arena.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: coinich on July 01, 2011, 10:10:33 am
Banning cards is a horrible idea, because the selection of those cards is arbitrary complaints.  What decides if a card is overpowered now?  "Oh noes, my opponent brought Antimatter!  Someone please ban his deckchoice so I don't lose again!"
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: SnoWeb on July 01, 2011, 10:39:31 am
Banning cards is a horrible idea, because the selection of those cards is arbitrary complaints.  What decides if a card is overpowered now?  "Oh noes, my opponent brought Antimatter!  Someone please ban his deckchoice so I don't lose again!"
I agree. The guilt suffers the same problem.

IMO, all problems come from the double draw. I think this feature should cost more (in skill points). Some suggested to create more level in dexterity (with a step similar as the HB draw). I agree but I also would like to see the double draw cost at he end more than 30 skill points (e.g. 2x15 instead of 20). In the same idea the multiple mark should cost a bit more (15 instead of 10).
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Rastafla on July 01, 2011, 12:35:17 pm
The problem is not the cards. If the problem is with the cards you balance them not prohibiting them. The next step in that line of reasoning is removing QTs and Novas from the game.
Gimping the AI? Thats just absurd.

The problem is the design of the "platinum" arena. The bonuses are too great and not balanced. When you allow players to build any decks with up to twice the amount of HP and doubled the natural drawpower and doubled card count and thrice the amount of quantageneration from the start, you create problems, one of the problems is called imbalance. It doesn't take a genius to know it wouldnt work. Its a pure design problem. Because contrary to the customdesigned FGs humans targets a weakness and then goes after that weakness 100% and with the all the bonuses piled on top each other you get imbalance levels off the scale.

This is a pure design problem. Its no surprise I vote No.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: QuantumT on July 01, 2011, 01:20:15 pm
I would like to point out to anyone claiming that the choices of cards as arbitrary is incredibly inaccurate. It may or may not be the best solution, but there is a very specific problem that this is trying to address.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Leo on July 01, 2011, 01:59:06 pm
IMO, all problems come from the double draw.
What if... the person with Double Draw skill would be allowed only 3 copies of each card in the deck, instead of 6?
This way, he/she would draw as a god, but would only pack 6 SoGs, steals, explosions..., i.e. (which is the biggest problem right now, i think).
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 01, 2011, 02:11:07 pm
I do think that the Arena suffers badly from a lack of deck variety at the higher levels, for rewards that are questionable considering the difficulty. I don't think a flat ban on big rainbow quanta cards is the best answer, though. I'd rather see the Oracle come up with newer and tougher restrictions, because 10 cards in a 100+ card deck with double draws are not much of a limitation, especially considering you're usually going to spin something halfway decent every couple of days.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: pervepic on July 01, 2011, 02:19:23 pm
I totally agree with Rastafla; and I agree with Snoweb too, Dexterity (double-draw) should cost (a lot) more and quanta generation a bit more.  But I don't like banning cards and making AI stupid.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Seraph on July 01, 2011, 02:52:18 pm
I don't think anything should be banned, but I do really hope for one thing, stopping nova and pillars from ending up in the oracle, it's just kind of stupid, as it's not forcing you to use a card really, but it does cause trouble

also, I don't think double draw is that bad, because double draw can lead to horrible draws. I had an immoskellie deck the first time I made an arena deck, and it flopped with double draw, because the draws are a lot more inconsistent. The same way, you see people getting a chain of 6 silences in the top 15 cards of the 70 card deck.

Arena decks are OP, but that's kind of the point
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: The_Mormegil on July 01, 2011, 03:23:31 pm
I post here my feedback on the main thread too, because that's the reason i voted for No.

Add a score bonus for every bonus spin, based on League. Turn Arena into the Ultimate Challenge, worth it not for money, not for rares (Bronze is for those), but for SCORE. Turn it into something only the true PRO will farm, and with the best decks against the best decks. That way it will become worth it: I trust this community to create decks up to the challenge if you can gain more score with this than with AI3 farming. Because, frankly, it's kind of sad that the ultimate frontier of this game is level 3 pummeling.

Every time you get a rare spin, you gain 35 / 105 / 315 / 945 extra score. 1000 score for three consecutive wins on Platinum? I bet it WILL be farmed.

Of course, the number can and probably MUST be tweaked. But I trust veterans' judgement on this subject: finding a good balance will result into Arena becoming really awesome, balanced or not.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Hyroen on July 01, 2011, 04:04:30 pm
In theory, all cards are currently balanced, otherwise we should be seeing some serious balancing in 1.28. Should Supernova and Quantum Towers be overpowered, they will be taken care of. I think the "stats" we assign to our decks also require some sort of strategy. A rainbow deck may not benefit from a 3x :aethermark as much as a Mono-Aether. A Lava Golem rush might not benefit from 200HP as much as a :light / :earth stall.

I personally like the Arena the way it is, and if there is a problem in design, maybe the discussed "guilt" should apply to any card that is reused from your previous Arena deck. For any reused card, the deck suffers 5HP "guilt/age"?

A no from me...
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: CCCombobreaker on July 01, 2011, 04:19:42 pm
I agree, unless people get heavy PvP pieces (immo/golem, gotp/nightmare, or other nasty deck pieces) then it doesn't make much sense to not run the rainBro deck.  I made a rainbow deck on day 1 with skeleton and went 10-4.  Day 2 I got puffer fish and used the same deck but with the new card and went 17-8.  BH, steal, deflag, SoG, Sanc, hourglass.  I never played it myself, but I bet it just denied people and decked them, maybe the skeletons or fish slowly killed them?  Anyways, I really regret this trend or my partaking in it.  Today I got soul catcher and made some silly immo death hybrid.  I doubt it will go 2:1 on wins, but the rainBro decks get old fast.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 01, 2011, 04:27:34 pm
In theory, all cards are currently balanced, otherwise we should be seeing some serious balancing in 1.28.
This theory falls flat because card balance varies wildly in different environments. A card that's balanced for PvP might be completely overpowered in the hands of a 200 HP deck with double draw and 3x mark.

The issue on the table isn't even necessarily that supernova and quantum towers are overpowered per se, just that they're overcrowding the arena and hurting variety. When the Oracle gives you a random card to build a deck around, half the time it means "build a standard rainbow deck that happens to have 5 extra cards which will hardly matter since you're drawing through the deck at double speed anyhow." Doesn't really foster creative deckbuilding.

That said, a universal ban really isn't called for. I like your suggested guilt penalty, although I'm not sure if you mean -5 HP for each copy or just for each card type. I'd be all for a fairly hard cap (I don't think completely non-overlapping decks would be a particularly onerous requirement), so -5 per copy sounds better to me. It might make sense to make it span a couple of decks (maybe any decks used in the past 3 days?), too, otherwise it would be pretty easy to circumvent--if it was just your last deck then you could put up your standard rainbow and run it until the HP loss starts hurting, switch to a throwaway deck with zero overlap, then go in the next day and reuse your regular deck base without penalty. You'd still get to use standard decks 90% of the time.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Leo on July 01, 2011, 05:13:06 pm
By reading all the posts I come to the conclusion that.. yes, Arena decks shouldn't have QTs. Or SoGs. That's it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: TheCrazyMango on July 01, 2011, 05:21:00 pm
if these were to be banned, surely creamation would also be banned
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: QuantumT on July 01, 2011, 05:31:14 pm
if these were to be banned, surely creamation would also be banned
Cremation doesn't allow you to more or less ignore your oracle card.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Tea is good on July 01, 2011, 06:08:01 pm
Lol i just through dead skeletons into an aether stall, you can basically do that with all the cards.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Essence on July 01, 2011, 06:13:32 pm
I think there need to be a couple banned cards in arena, namely Supernova and Quantum Towers. The problem with them is that people have decided that they'll just toss whatever the oracle card is into the same old rainbow deck because it can handle some dead cards. The result is that at least half the decks you play against are basically the same thing.

Wait -- on the one hand, people are complaining that Platinum is too hard -- and on the other, they're complaining that half the decks are virtual clones of one another?  Dude -- build a counter to the clone army, improve your win percentage, share your counter with everybody, and watch as people move away from that archetype because it's not successful anymore.

Ta-da!  let's use one problem to solve the other! 
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: QuantumT on July 01, 2011, 06:23:30 pm
I think there need to be a couple banned cards in arena, namely Supernova and Quantum Towers. The problem with them is that people have decided that they'll just toss whatever the oracle card is into the same old rainbow deck because it can handle some dead cards. The result is that at least half the decks you play against are basically the same thing.

Wait -- on the one hand, people are complaining that Platinum is too hard -- and on the other, they're complaining that half the decks are virtual clones of one another?  Dude -- build a counter to the clone army, improve your win percentage, share your counter with everybody, and watch as people move away from that archetype because it's not successful anymore.

Ta-da!  let's use one problem to solve the other!
Except that won't really work. With an FG's boosted mark, denying them the entropy quanta to get going doesn't really work. You might be able to build a dedicated denial deck with some gravity nymphs, because they have enough SNs than BHs won't really phase them.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Rastafla on July 01, 2011, 06:57:48 pm
I think there need to be a couple banned cards in arena, namely Supernova and Quantum Towers. The problem with them is that people have decided that they'll just toss whatever the oracle card is into the same old rainbow deck because it can handle some dead cards. The result is that at least half the decks you play against are basically the same thing.

Wait -- on the one hand, people are complaining that Platinum is too hard -- and on the other, they're complaining that half the decks are virtual clones of one another?  Dude -- build a counter to the clone army, improve your win percentage, share your counter with everybody, and watch as people move away from that archetype because it's not successful anymore.

Ta-da!  let's use one problem to solve the other!
Except that won't really work. With an FG's boosted mark, denying them the entropy quanta to get going doesn't really work. You might be able to build a dedicated denial deck with some gravity nymphs, because they have enough SNs than BHs won't really phase them.
That last part of your comment is the design flaw in the arena, THE problem, that there are far too many copies of each card when a deck is duplicatedand when every card at 6 goes to 12. It doesnt matter what the player does he will get overrun or denied with almost no resistance. 

There are a fixes to this imho. One Annoying and one easy.
1# The fix is that when you pick double draw dont duplicate the deck, simply force the use of 60-120 cards from your library before you can press submit. This of course requiters zanz to extend the deckbuilding window in the arena to accommodatemore more than the current 60.

2# Keep the duplication and extra draw as it is and if you activated it, no more than 3 copies can be put in the deck, that way when the deck is duplicated there will be 6 copies in the final deck. The only exception would be the oracle card that would have 10 copies which seems fair and would make decks centered around what card you got. Now there wont be any, way too overpowered rushes I believe.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: pervepic on July 01, 2011, 08:22:09 pm

Maybe obligation of using 6 cards that oracle gives prevents coping each-others decks a bit. And again, compared with the cost of hp and double draw and upped cards, dexterity should cost more imo.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: TheCrazyMango on July 01, 2011, 08:35:41 pm
2# Keep the duplication and extra draw as it is and if you activated it, no more than 3 copies can be put in the deck, that way when the deck is duplicated there will be 6 copies in the final deck. The only exception would be the oracle card that would have 10 copies which seems fair and would make decks centered around what card you got. Now there wont be any, way too overpowered rushes I believe.
rasta, 1337 idea is 1337
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Chromatophore on July 01, 2011, 08:47:04 pm
2# Keep the duplication and extra draw as it is and if you activated it, no more than 3 copies can be put in the deck, that way when the deck is duplicated there will be 6 copies in the final deck. The only exception would be the oracle card that would have 10 copies which seems fair and would make decks centered around what card you got. Now there wont be any, way too overpowered rushes I believe.
+1
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: moomoose on July 01, 2011, 09:02:10 pm
im one of these offenders, basically because i dont own enough (upgraded) cards to make the decks i want, so ill just make a deck i have with the added junk cards from the oracle
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: coinich on July 01, 2011, 11:44:10 pm
I like Sno and Rasta's ideas; they avoid the banning problem altogether.  The points are too "cheap" as it is and perhaps limiting ALL cards to that half number double draw would be an ideal solution.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: lskpiano on July 02, 2011, 12:12:06 am
I voted no because I worked really hard for those QT's and SN's and I want to be able to use them!  I do see the problem, though, and think Rasta's suggestion or something like it would be a good solution.

Thanks,

LSK Piano
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: MeetJSquared on July 02, 2011, 01:48:00 am
Please no banning cards, cause that reminds me too much of MtG.  I don't understand the point of creating a card then deciding you can't use it.  Nerf/Buff is all good, but no complete bans.

And I like the idea of 3x copies of cards so with double draw you have 6 max and not 12.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Essence on July 02, 2011, 02:30:50 am
This whole thread is a bunch of panic for no real reason.  Talk to me again in a month now that it's live, and we'll see if you have a legitimate concern.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: pikachufan2164 on July 02, 2011, 02:46:19 am
Please no banning cards, cause that reminds me too much of MtG.  I don't understand the point of creating a card then deciding you can't use it.  Nerf/Buff is all good, but no complete bans.
The cards are balanced for regular PvP (completely unupped or fully upped, single mark, single draw, max 6 copies of non-Pillar/Pends), but not for situations where one can get FG stats, abuse the double-draw mechanic, and spam denial/control cards to achieve a lockdown.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Pineapple on July 02, 2011, 03:37:32 am
I think that reducing the maximum copies of non-pillar cards from 6 to 3 or 4 would fix many problems, including the supernova problem. As for the inherent problem with rainbows, we could always limit the maximum number of non-other elements to 5 or 4.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: TimerClock14 on July 02, 2011, 03:39:19 am
This whole thread is a bunch of panic for no real reason.  Talk to me again in a month now that it's live, and we'll see if you have a legitimate concern.
What this smart person said.

My philosophy with updates: Don't knock it till you try it.....for a month or more.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: coinich on July 02, 2011, 02:38:50 pm
This whole thread is a bunch of panic for no real reason.  Talk to me again in a month now that it's live, and we'll see if you have a legitimate concern.
What this smart person said.

My philosophy with updates: Don't knock it till you try it.....for a month or more.
I've been saying it for days.

Though I wonder if we'd gain anything by splitting double draw from double deck.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: siriosirio on July 02, 2011, 03:29:40 pm
i d'ont like idea of banned card but maybe restrict the arena deck in mono , duo & trio?
so peopel have to think what deck creat for arena
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: twixy10 on July 02, 2011, 05:15:39 pm
This whole thread is a bunch of panic for no real reason.  Talk to me again in a month now that it's live, and we'll see if you have a legitimate concern.
What this smart person said.

My philosophy with updates: Don't knock it till you try it.....for a month or more.
I've been saying it for days.

Though I wonder if we'd gain anything by splitting double draw from double deck.
That would be horrible, double deck is actually a handicap for some decks. Withouth it (and still with double draw) some decks would become OP.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Gerberos on July 02, 2011, 08:01:32 pm
What are you guys whining about? If everyone uses the same deck just build a deck that works well against that specific deck > Win every time.
Or is it that your deck loses against these rainbow decks and instead of changing deck you want to force others to change?

Rock is OP, Paper is OK.
-Scissors

I'm also against this "guilt" system. Why would you make the AI not play what's most beneficial in that situation. His mission is to mercilessly crush the opponent, not to figure out the least frustrating way to do so.

Let everyone play as they want, with the cards they feel most comfortable with.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Nihilus on July 02, 2011, 08:15:58 pm
Banning cards is alwais a lame idea.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: QuantumT on July 02, 2011, 08:23:25 pm
What are you guys whining about? If everyone uses the same deck just build a deck that works well against that specific deck > Win every time.
Or is it that your deck loses against these rainbow decks and instead of changing deck you want to force others to change?
My complaint is about the lack of variety, which I find dull.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Essence on July 02, 2011, 08:50:36 pm
Fortunately, the Arena is dynamic.  If you counter the rainbows hard, people will stop building them because they'll stop working.

Nuff said.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: ntz on July 02, 2011, 09:15:36 pm
million time agree !! no dirty rainbows in arena ..

thanks for this topic
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: FSK on July 02, 2011, 09:37:14 pm
How about random-banning?  There are 5-10 cards that you're not allowed to use, semi-randomly selected?

I'd like to see more mono-decks.  How about a 50% chance that you're required to submit a mono deck?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Gerberos on July 02, 2011, 09:46:08 pm
Fortunately, the Arena is dynamic.  If you counter the rainbows hard, people will stop building them because they'll stop working.

Nuff said.
This.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 02, 2011, 10:09:06 pm
How about random-banning?  There are 5-10 cards that you're not allowed to use, semi-randomly selected?

I'd like to see more mono-decks.  How about a 50% chance that you're required to submit a mono deck?
Like I said before, I'm all for the oracle handing out tougher restrictions on deck building. Picking banned cards at random probably wouldn't do a lot of good, though. Even if it was picking out 10 cards, chances are you'd only be missing 1-2 power cards; still plenty of others to go around. Similarly, I'd like to see more incentive for creative mono/duo decks, but outright forcing them is probably not the way to go.

I think a simpler way to handle these kinds of restrictions would be to pick 2 entire elements at random and ban them (possibly counting "other" as an element.) That subtly nerfs rainbows without banning them outright, and if your heart is really set on putting together a rainbow deck there'd always be some variant you could put together if you were creative (which is the point.)

Alternately, another take on the mono requirement might be to pick a random element (which may or may not be the element of your assigned card) and require your arena deck to use at least 12-15 cards of that element. Again, you can still put together a rainbow-slanted deck with that limitation (especially if your assigned element is :entropy) but it takes a little bit of adaptation.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Marvaddin on July 03, 2011, 03:43:39 am
I didnt read all the thread, but, voted yes.

Its interesting when you fight vs duos FGs-like, I just played vs a Water-Air duo with both types of fishes, dragons, permafrost, EE... Its interesting. Had many other fun fights. What ruins the experience is the amount of rainbows. Im all up to banning QT. Dunno really about Supernova, because it at least costs entropy, but QT really deserves it.

Like people said, anyone can create a rainbow deck and simply insert any semi-decent cards he gets from Oracle.

Im also up to ban shards.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Rastafla on July 03, 2011, 11:16:24 am
Then why not ban the FG Rainbow? Its absurd to ban QTs and Novas. The danger is the 12 copies of cards that deny you hard, there's no stopping that card advantage when its abused and not balanced.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: tharsonius on July 03, 2011, 11:43:12 am
I voted No. I mean if ppl build many Rainbow decks there are enough counter to handle it. And im also againt setting skillcosts higher. I mean gold and platinum league are not meant to be easy, their rewards are very high  so they should be more challenging then a fg. I really like the system its  way more challenging then before.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: digitalevil1 on July 03, 2011, 12:19:03 pm
I personally don't like building rainbow decks, so my platinum decks are usually only ever mono with a different mark for creature skills etc.
I also agree that going up against the same deck over and over again is boring, but rainbow decks (in my opinion) are usually quite simple to counter.
So if you are coming across too many of them, just build a counter deck :).

I had 6 or 7 straight wins yesterday on platinum and a couple EM's, just because I knew what I'd likely be up against.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 03, 2011, 01:03:41 pm
LESS QQ MORE PEWPEW!!

works for CSS should work here :P



big font = important, must read

PLATINUM REWARD IS ENORMOUS, THAT UNTO ITSELF IS MORE THAN ENOUGH REASON TO NEVER BAN A CARD
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Xenocidius on July 03, 2011, 01:08:05 pm
I personally think only Shards should be banned.

SoDs become incredibly OP with 200 HP and Miracle, and I've seen SoGs in at least half the decks I've played against in Silver.

There's a reason why FGs don't have Shards.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: coinich on July 03, 2011, 01:37:17 pm
I personally think only Shards should be banned.

SoDs become incredibly OP with 200 HP and Miracle, and I've seen SoGs in at least half the decks I've played against in Silver.

There's a reason why FGs don't have Shards.
Shards are absolutely no more powerful in a 200hp environment than they are in a 100hp environment.  If anything, it just means that Miracle is more powerful when you have more health to heal.  Arena challenger decks are already bringing more permanent control as it is.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 03, 2011, 01:42:45 pm
And I believe that reason is, not because of the usage, but in the early days, there weren't as many shards, so putting them into fg decks would only have increased the number of shards drastically, and considering they are more rare than weapons, as a developer, you wouldn't want your game rampant with shards in the early goings.  But now, I don't see any reason why some of the fgs can't have their decks changed a bit to incorporate some shards.  The community now has lots, and are fairly easy to come by.

And again, refer to the extra large text in my previous post.  If you haven't played any FGS yet, then you don't know how much money you make for an average game.  It is 4-5x more when you win against platinum and fgs you can win upped cards. 



----TIP----
If you can't seem to win against platinum level, try a lower one.  If you cannot beat bronze, then maybe your deck sucks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Xenocidius on July 03, 2011, 01:58:34 pm
And I believe that reason is, not because of the usage, but in the early days, there weren't as many shards, so putting them into fg decks would only have increased the number of shards drastically, and considering they are more rare than weapons, as a developer, you wouldn't want your game rampant with shards in the early goings.  But now, I don't see any reason why some of the fgs can't have their decks changed a bit to incorporate some shards.  The community now has lots, and are fairly easy to come by.

And again, refer to the extra large text in my previous post.  If you haven't played any FGS yet, then you don't know how much money you make for an average game.  It is 4-5x more when you win against platinum and fgs you can win upped cards. 



----TIP----
If you can't seem to win against platinum level, try a lower one.  If you cannot beat bronze, then maybe your deck sucks.
I believe that FGs aren't even allowed Shards. I'm not sure though, it's something only Zanz can clarify. As for decks, I've tried JMZ classic and several CCYB variants, and although Silver is somewhat easy, Gold isn't - again, mostly because of Shards.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 03, 2011, 02:19:04 pm
i use my voodoo deck, same one i use against fgs, and i win plenty against platinum, shard or no shard, as long as they have creatures i have usually won.


----Tip----
If you want to make money, go farm false gods, the arena I would assume is more for a competitive aspect other than pvp.  So really, the money shouldn't be the issue ever.  It is to see if you can beat these over powered decks. 


Personally, I like challenges, so there is no reason to ban any card just because you can't seem to win.  Build a better deck, or go play level 0!!
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: zse on July 03, 2011, 08:17:08 pm
2# Keep the duplication and extra draw as it is and if you activated it, no more than 3 copies can be put in the deck, that way when the deck is duplicated there will be 6 copies in the final deck. The only exception would be the oracle card that would have 10 copies which seems fair and would make decks centered around what card you got. Now there wont be any, way too overpowered rushes I believe.
Great idea! I'm all for it. Now where did I see that posted before, oh yeah, there it was: :P
Another patch:
- Fixed the bug that didn't allow adding upped cards to the regular deck
- Added a button to test your own Arena deck
- When the AI is drawing 2 cards per turn it will refrain from chaining more than two of the following:
Silence
Nightmare
Earthquake
Black Hole
Great thing to be able to test own Arena deck!

I think chaining those cards wasn't the real root of this problem. I think it was more due to the fact that there was 12 of those in a double-sized deck, so could that thing be changed somehow? For example using Dexterity Skill that doubles card drawing and deck size would also forbid you to use more than 3 or 4 same cards (doubled to 6 or 8 ) in your Arena deck.
Great minds think whatever...
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Demacry on July 03, 2011, 08:55:45 pm
Like in an RTS game, the cards/units should be universally the same throughout all the match types. Changing the stats of some cards or completely banning others would do more than break the staleness of some of the decks used in the arena, it would take away the options for other potential uses of the cards as well (ie. using quantum towers in combo with upped dissipation shield and a x3 :entropy mark in a mono-entropy deck).

The only time I used a rainbow deck with the oracles cards was Day 1 with the skeletons. Since then Ive actually been enjoying just trying to make a deck that conforms to the handicap and is still effective. I dont think the problems presented by SN and QT are present as much in Bronze, Silver, and to an extent, Gold. My suggestions to fix whatever the percieved problems with the Arena are would be to add a secondary, minor handicap to Gold and either two minor handicaps to Platinum or one major handicap.

Some of possible caps could be, -not being able to reuse cards used in the previous day's deck, -no more than 3 element types to the deck, -must use # of cards in the day's deck, etc. etc.

I also think that if diversity is the goal then players only having enough SP to max on 3 of the 4 benefits could go a ways to forcing some adaptations.

I'm nowhere near as experienced with this game as several of the people who have already posted on this subject but even I know that if everyone is choosing the same options the answer is not to lock those doors but to either present more options or just make those doors a weird shape.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: lskpiano on July 03, 2011, 09:19:12 pm
Rock is OP, Paper is OK.
-Scissors
This.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Marvaddin on July 03, 2011, 10:04:39 pm
And I believe that reason is, not because of the usage, but in the early days, there weren't as many shards, so putting them into fg decks would only have increased the number of shards drastically, and considering they are more rare than weapons, as a developer, you wouldn't want your game rampant with shards in the early goings.  But now, I don't see any reason why some of the fgs can't have their decks changed a bit to incorporate some shards.  The community now has lots, and are fairly easy to come by.
This really fits your portrait, I think.  :P

I assume veterans had a lot of shards a long time ago. Although, of course FGs were never a place to farm rares. Really dunno why zanz never had the *bright* idea of creating a shard user FG. How about both SoDs and SoGs, plus Sanctuaries, Miracle, Granite Skin, PA, Spine Carapace, Bonds, and some critters? In fact, some Druidic Staves, Adrenalines and AWs could be good, too. Hmmmm... maybe FGs arent supposed to have a superb healing skill, along with superb PC, CC, best critters, increased drawing rates, etc, all packed in a single deck.

The community has lots of Shards. And fresh players, will it be simple to a starter get Shards, needing 6 consecutive wins in bronze league to get a chance of getting a random rare?

To person that asked, Rainbow FG deck is surely suboptimal, and I would still be up for removing it, if you ask me.

Platinum rewards are good, ok. So, should be hard opponents, correct. Like there is no way to create hard decks not using QT. It wouldnt make it easy, just interesting. If its even close to easy (and I seriously doubt it), the dinamic reward system would correct it. People would beat Platinum, its rewards would decrease, people would play other leagues. But again, I believe its far from happening.

I stick with my opinion: ban QT and Shards would make it INTERESTING, not easy. But lets see. If in some weeks you guys are tired of facing rainbows, maybe your opinions can change. While there are like 40-50% of rainbows, I think I will just not play Platinum too much.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: wavedash on July 03, 2011, 11:12:03 pm
I cannot understand how this poll isn't overwhelmingly pro-ban. You can make a deck with 6 Quantum Towers, 6 Supernovas, 3 Graboids, three Recluses, Lava Destroyer, Pegasus, and then just throw in whatever crappy card the Oracle gave you. Might there be a more effective deck than that? Sure. Does it go against the spirit of spinning the Oracle and forming a deck around what Lady Luck gives you? Definitely.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: coinich on July 04, 2011, 12:21:11 am
I cannot understand how this poll isn't overwhelmingly pro-ban. You can make a deck with 6 Quantum Towers, 6 Supernovas, 3 Graboids, three Recluses, Lava Destroyer, Pegasus, and then just throw in whatever crappy card the Oracle gave you. Might there be a more effective deck than that? Sure. Does it go against the spirit of spinning the Oracle and forming a deck around what Lady Luck gives you? Definitely.
Because pro-ban is a horrible idea that arbitrarily bans cards based on what people play?  The environment needs time to develop counters, not immediately remove cards because we haven't collectively come up with a solution.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: willng3 on July 04, 2011, 12:36:02 am
I'm tempted to go pro-ban simply because I don't feel it's right that Black Hole is largely ineffective against a large percentage of decks where it should serve as a hard counter in most normal cases and yet is laughed at because it can't keep up with the speed/quanta generation at all. 
On the other hand, Rainbow has always had nearly 50 Quantum Towers in its deck so this is definitely not the first time we've encountered this type of problem. 
In saying that, however, I'm almost certain than very few of us expected that type of deck format to appear on such a wide scale and it does bother me that this is the case since as of right now there is still currently no single deck listed here on these forums that has a great enough winrate to be known as a Rainbow(FG) counter.  The potential for 500 of these types of decks to exist at any one time is what makes me concerned for the following reason:
There are a fair number of people who upon receiving Rainbow as their FG of the day from the Oracle would opt to refresh the page rather than fight that FG just because there is a greater chance of them winning against almost anything else even if it is a completely random pairing process against a normal FG grinder.
So if the Platinum metagame becomes nothing but these types of decks then isn't there a possibility of it becoming completely unplayed altogether?

I'd feel much more at ease if there was a limit set on these cards altogether as they are completely balanced and playable in moderation.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Ashebrethafe on July 04, 2011, 01:11:19 am
I voted no, because I don't think it would really solve the problem -- how do you know that rainbow decks are the only ones that can handle the dead cards? (They're not the only large competitive decks, if that's what you're going by. My mono-fire deck had more than 50 cards when it reached 500 score, and I had just won five pvp1 matches in a row.) Also, rainbows aren't the only decks that use Quantum Pillars/Towers -- my water deck currently contains every card of that element, and uses QPs to power the abilities of the Toadfish and Mind Flayers.

On the other hand, I wouldn't just throw the cards in and let them be dead draws. I'd buy pillars/pendulums (if necessary) and change the quantum base so they could be played -- or if they were pillars or pendulums, put in something that could be played with the quanta they generated -- and maybe take out some of the less powerful cards. For example, when I took my main account to the beta, it had an earth deck and I spun a Burning Pillar; my Arena deck was my existing deck plus the five BPs and five Lava Golems for them to power, and minus six Stone Pillars and four Stone Dragons.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 04, 2011, 08:58:26 am
My voodoo deck beats the rainbow decks in platinum silly.  As long as they have creatures it is usually an easy win, just like when I face the FG rainbow.  So it's not like there is no suitable deck to use, it's just that people choose not to use it.

@ Marv
I think Zanz wanted people to donate in the early stages of the game, and that was how they got shards. 

Farms can still exist I think.  I threw together a miracle/morningstar farm, with fire as my mark and I had ruby dragons from the oracle.


@ the rainbow deck makers
Expand your mind and be more creative.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Antervis on July 04, 2011, 03:40:22 pm
I don't think some cards should be banned, but I really believe some cards should be limited. Every third arena deck is a doubled rainbow with BH/steals/explosions/EQ, this makes farm REALLY hard. You can do nothing when stealing/exploding not only permanents, but even pillars is so cheap to the enemy.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: jmdt on July 04, 2011, 05:08:00 pm
I'm tempted to go pro-ban simply because I don't feel it's right that Black Hole is largely ineffective against a large percentage of decks where it should serve as a hard counter in most normal cases and yet is laughed at because it can't keep up with the speed/quanta generation at all. 
On the other hand, Rainbow has always had nearly 50 Quantum Towers in its deck so this is definitely not the first time we've encountered this type of problem. 
In saying that, however, I'm almost certain than very few of us expected that type of deck format to appear on such a wide scale and it does bother me that this is the case since as of right now there is still currently no single deck listed here on these forums that has a great enough winrate to be known as a Rainbow(FG) counter.  The potential for 500 of these types of decks to exist at any one time is what makes me concerned for the following reason:
There are a fair number of people who upon receiving Rainbow as their FG of the day from the Oracle would opt to refresh the page rather than fight that FG just because there is a greater chance of them winning against almost anything else even if it is a completely random pairing process against a normal FG grinder.
So if the Platinum metagame becomes nothing but these types of decks then isn't there a possibility of it becoming completely unplayed altogether?

I'd feel much more at ease if there was a limit set on these cards altogether as they are completely balanced and playable in moderation.

When I see rainbow, I rush him out of the gym.  Rainbow gets stronger with time...so don't give him any.  DFSBE FTL.

As far as quantum towers, I don't have a problem with them per say.  Honestly, when I see Quantum towers when they are not the oracle card it to me is a sign or poor deck building.  Anyone can stick quantum towers in a deck with 5 cards and make a rainbow.  I'd like to see more creative decks, especially from the folk in platinum that have the upgrades to make almost anything.  T500 should be about creativity and a deck building showcase, not a place to have the same rainbow and move 5 cards in and out every few days.  So should QT be banned, no.  However, people should learn not to use them as a crutch.  Ideally we see a majority of duos with mono's and trios sprinkled in.  A few rainbows don't hurt, but only if they are somewhat creative/unique in design.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: The_Mormegil on July 04, 2011, 05:13:24 pm
However, people should learn not to use them as a crutch.  Ideally we see a majority of duos with mono's and trios sprinkled in.  A few rainbows don't hurt, but only if they are somewhat creative/unique in design.
Problem with that is that Rainbow-like decks WORK. And you are paid for your deck -> you want your deck to work. If payback is too low and you don't want it anymore you get farms. To get rid of both you need to get rid of both deck payment AND spins. But that would just lead to people not really caring.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: CCCombobreaker on July 04, 2011, 05:21:34 pm
The problem to me, is that the 'anyone can make this' rainbow + oracle decks outperform many other deck builds.  My 2 oracleBow decks went a combined 50-26 (skeleton, pufferfish), but when I tried to build a legit mono air with wings, and even put a full upgrade fractix, both fell out of the top 500 within 10 games.  People say 'they will build counters to the oracleBow, and change the meta', but that just isn't happening yet.  Most people still use FG farmers which get hosed by 8steal, 8 deflag, 6 EQ, 8 BH, 8 Thunderstorm, 6 RT decks.  Until the meta evolves, why should I get creative if my creative decks get played 10 times and make me no money? 
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: jmdt on July 04, 2011, 05:32:50 pm
The problem to me, is that the 'anyone can make this' rainbow + oracle decks outperform many other deck builds.  My 2 oracleBow decks went a combined 50-26 (skeleton, pufferfish), but when I tried to build a legit mono air with wings, and even put a full upgrade fractix, both fell out of the top 500 within 10 games.  People say 'they will build counters to the oracleBow, and change the meta', but that just isn't happening yet.  Most people still use FG farmers which get hosed by 8steal, 8 deflag, 6 EQ, 8 BH, 8 Thunderstorm, 6 RT decks.  Until the meta evolves, why should I get creative if my creative decks get played 10 times and make me no money? 
I've made 2 non rainbow decks and both have > 90% win rate.  Do they use mean cards, of course.  Both are also legitimate trainer tested decks that contain thought and synergy.  I'd like to argue a duo or trio based on a mean combo of cards would be more effective than a rainbow based on the same combo.  Rainbows are can do anything, but at the cost of speed.  With a mono/duo/trio you must make your deck more focused, but it gains an advantage in speed and reliability.  Even in T50, I put up monos and duos as 'biting farms'; these were built on sound deck principles and in their own right were successful PvP decks.  Getting feedback, many of these decks had >50% win rate, some even closer to 75%.  Non rainbows work, they just take work to get there.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: The_Mormegil on July 04, 2011, 05:34:58 pm
Non rainbows work, they just take work to get there.
While rainbows work, and they don't take work to get there.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Leo on July 04, 2011, 06:13:34 pm
This is a game in which people play to WIN. If Rainbow decks are the best, win/lose wise, people will use them.
This is why Platinum has the same deck over and over. And it IS broken. C'mon, 12 Explosions, 12 Steals, 12 SoGs...

In my opinion, QT should be banned, and SNovas too.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: willng3 on July 04, 2011, 06:23:10 pm
When I see rainbow, I rush him out of the gym.  Rainbow gets stronger with time...so don't give him any.  DFSBE FTL.
After 25 games DFSBE managed to kill Rainbow a whopping 4 times.  Every single game I drew a Quantum Tower, over 80% of my games consisted of immediate SN play; in other words, if I lost, it had nothing to do with bad luck.  So yeah when I said there wasn't a reliable counter to it on the forums, I meant there wasn't a reliable counter to it on the forums.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Calindu on July 04, 2011, 07:11:59 pm
Now i think we need to take out BH and SoG's/Sanctuaryes.I just got decked out by one guy with 8 SoG's out at a moment.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Avenger on July 04, 2011, 07:26:43 pm
No.

That makes the arena biased. Unbiased arena > Biased arena.
What, and having every single deck used the same cards is unbiased?
I don't think they use the same cards. I saw very diverse decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: jmdt on July 04, 2011, 07:36:36 pm
This is a game in which people play to WIN. If Rainbow decks are the best, win/lose wise, people will use them.
This is why Platinum has the same deck over and over. And it IS broken. C'mon, 12 Explosions, 12 Steals, 12 SoGs...

In my opinion, QT should be banned, and SNovas too.

There is no data to support that rainbow decks are the best for platinum.  We do however know it takes much less effort and deck buiding skill to put a working one together.  I have a duo and *gasp* a trio with over 90 % win rates.  God forbid someone actully take time to plan out, quanta balance, and test a deck before submission to the arena rather than dumping a bunch of cards and QT's together.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 04, 2011, 08:51:45 pm
There is no data to support that rainbow decks are the best for platinum.  We do however know it takes much less effort and deck buiding skill to put a working one together.  I have a duo and *gasp* a trio with over 90 % win rates.  God forbid someone actully take time to plan out, quanta balance, and test a deck before submission to the arena rather than dumping a bunch of cards and QT's together.
Also, I think it bears consideration that putting rainbows together, by and large, takes vastly less money than duo/trio decks. True, rainbows are often fatter and costlier to build than your typical mono/duo/trio--but once you build them you have a lot of cards that can easily be reshuffled into other decks. There are plenty of different styles of rainbow decks that have varying strengths and weaknesses despite sharing a good number of cards (particularly towers/supernovas)--once you have one, you can easily build others. Mono/duo/trio decks, in contrast, are by their nature more specialized and it's a steeper investment to build them since you need a huge pool of cards for each individual element. Towers are the biggest culprit, especially with pendulums in the mix--being able to get your game going one turn earlier makes them a hugely important upgrade, you need tons of them, and they're not easily transferable between decks of different elements. So that might be a contributing factor to lack of variety.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: jmdt on July 04, 2011, 08:55:25 pm
There is no data to support that rainbow decks are the best for platinum.  We do however know it takes much less effort and deck buiding skill to put a working one together.  I have a duo and *gasp* a trio with over 90 % win rates.  God forbid someone actully take time to plan out, quanta balance, and test a deck before submission to the arena rather than dumping a bunch of cards and QT's together.
Also, I think it bears consideration that putting rainbows together, by and large, takes vastly less money than duo/trio decks. True, rainbows are often fatter and costlier to build than your typical mono/duo/trio--but once you build them you have a lot of cards that can easily be reshuffled into other decks. There are plenty of different styles of rainbow decks that have varying strengths and weaknesses despite sharing a good number of cards (particularly towers/supernovas)--once you have one, you can easily build others. Mono/duo/trio decks, in contrast, are by their nature more specialized and it's a steeper investment to build them since you need a huge pool of cards for each individual element. Towers are the biggest culprit, especially with pendulums in the mix--being able to get your game going one turn earlier makes them a hugely important upgrade, you need tons of them, and they're not easily transferable between decks of different elements. So that might be a contributing factor to lack of variety.
In the platinum ranks, any player should have a ton of upped cards.  This includes towers/pendulums.  Most gold players will have a share of upped towers and pends as well.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 04, 2011, 09:10:45 pm
In the platinum ranks, any player should have a ton of upped cards.  This includes towers/pendulums.  Most gold players will have a share of upped towers and pends as well.
It depends a bit on your gold:score ratio. A dedicated FG farmer is going to have pretty much all the upgrades they would ever want by the time they hit platinum, because most of their money is coming from card sales that don't affect their score. Someone grinding the whole way up via AI3 and T50 is not going to have anywhere near everything upgraded, and chances are most of their upgrades are going to be aimed towards rainbow decks (because again, it makes economic sense to upgrade the most flexible cards first instead of sinking 50k into building a more specialized mono.) I regularly see unupped cards in gold and plat, although admittedly there's no real way to tell if that's because people are unwilling to sink points into boosting the upped card limit for their arena deck or if they're unable to field a fully upgraded arena deck. By the time you're high enough level to max everything, yeah, you've got everything upgraded period.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Marvaddin on July 04, 2011, 09:29:36 pm
Rainbows are can do anything, but at the cost of speed.
Rainbows dont need speed. They use a lot of cheap cards they can use to control opponent creatures and permanents in early game. And, with double draw, there is not much a normal deck can do. Rainbow FG has 'just' 6 steals and 8 explosions, and its already a lot. With more, and some EQs, you will most probably have no permanents until you are dead. Wanna create a immo deck? Good, but your creatures will die, and you wont bring it even to 100 HP, even more with it having shards. Its just efficient. People could learn how to create a fun duo, but why they would do that? To have a worse win rate?

Maybe Voodoo has a chance... if they dont start using Momentum, RTs, etc.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: ryanaj on July 04, 2011, 09:38:38 pm
if quantum towers get banned i will have to stop playing the arena because i cant afford to keep buying n selling cards because gives me useless card maybe jus add a approximate 30% coin loss for using rainbows?, or some kind disadvantage for using rainbows?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: omegareaper7 on July 04, 2011, 09:41:13 pm
Rainbows are can do anything, but at the cost of speed.
Rainbows dont need speed. They use a lot of cheap cards they can use to control opponent creatures and permanents in early game. And, with double draw, there is not much a normal deck can do. Rainbow FG has 'just' 6 steals and 8 explosions, and its already a lot. With more, and some EQs, you will most probably have no permanents until you are dead. Wanna create a immo deck? Good, but your creatures will die, and you wont bring it even to 100 HP, even more with it having shards. Its just efficient. People could learn how to create a fun duo, but why they would do that? To have a worse win rate?

Maybe Voodoo has a chance... if they dont start using Momentum, RTs, etc.
I have never used a rainbow, except for todays deck.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 04, 2011, 11:05:58 pm
I am gonna make decks based on the oracle cards.  So I am not noobing out like the rest.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: CCCombobreaker on July 04, 2011, 11:26:53 pm
Calling the oracleBow users noobs is just not the case.  I have about 90 upped cards that go into 3 decks: vNG, MonoAether, and TADAbow.  Being in gold league, when I've put up unupped decks based the oracle card that are modeled after successful pvp decks or FGs with good win rates vs farm decks, they get hosed because what good is an unupped FG or a good pvp2 deck with unupped cards?  If I can use my upped cards, I do... But when the oracle gives cards that don't fit into mods of those decks... Why not build oracleBow and go 30-10 for the day?  It isn't being noob, it's being efficient.  Maybe it's less creative, but in a game where the forums is full of efficiency studies, why are we calling people trying to be efficient noob?  When CCYB or RoL hope were showed efficient, a lot of people started using it or mods of it.  If the oracleBow works, and everyone uses it or mods of it... How is that different?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Addicted on July 05, 2011, 01:01:01 am
not sure if its been suggested, but rather than banning cards, why not have the oracle pick your mark.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: parasite99 on July 05, 2011, 01:07:28 am
nah cards are more fun...

I upgraded 16 cards today just to put a deck in Arena...this is getting expensive but addictive also.
I allways check what my "babies" do between farming.
At least my deck is 15-0 at gold atm and brought me back 75 electrum (need another 23925 and I'll balance my electrum again).
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 05, 2011, 01:20:37 am
i earned 1k score and i dunno how much electrum i won during that time, but it only took 20min roughly against gold.   thats insane
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Newbiecake on July 05, 2011, 03:10:05 am
Let me imput some opinion here: Ban QTs, and not SNs.

As said many times already, although efficient, 12 of Steals, Explosions, SoGs, and whatnot is just incriminating to the spirit of the Arena and to players.

If QTs are banned, SoGs will not be much of a problem because you will need to run an SN based deck to fuel spam them efficiently.

Here's why SN is not a problem: if QTs are based, decks that want to splash in a few elements (such as Entrodulum-oraclecard decks), still somewhat bases their strategies over the oracle card. Also, SN is VERY important to creative deck building. For example, I just got Wyrm as my card today. I decided to run off 1X Entropy Mark, Chaos Powers, and of course some Wind Pillars, but I thought that is just boring. As a result, I switched it to 2X mark, tossed in SNs, Wings, some CC and PC, AND the vital cards: The Death and Aether spider which helps me web down flying creatures. You see, without SNs, I only have myself a boring, uninteresting deck. But with it, it is possible to further utilize effective synergies of an element and make creative decks.

The poll does not have an option to ban just one of those. Please change it QT. :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: LifeLockable on July 05, 2011, 03:50:17 am
I would personally like to see QT banned for the simple fact that facing rainbows over and over and over again is a s boring as hell because its the same thing, and dont sit here and try to tell me to "build a deck to counter it" because that is impossible with player made FG decks the term "rainbow" is taken to another level

I wouldnt ban SN becaue you need entrophy to set it off so your not locked down from turn one

I personally refuse to make a rainbow for arena and my decks to pretty well...though I had a GREAT deck in gold today that got 15 wins but then it lost three times and got knocked out of arena...I dont think thats cool LOL I know this isnt the discussion for this but I wanted to throw that in xD
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Marvaddin on July 05, 2011, 04:08:19 am
Looks like I got some opinions. We should restart the poll. Ban QT? Ban SN? Ban Cremation? Ban QT and SN? Ban QT and Cremation? Maybe QT, SN and Cremation??

Anyway, Im sure QTs deserve the ban :P
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Newbiecake on July 05, 2011, 07:22:58 am
Looks like I got some opinions. We should restart the poll. Ban QT? Ban SN? Ban Cremation? Ban QT and SN? Ban QT and Cremation? Maybe QT, SN and Cremation??

Anyway, Im sure QTs deserve the ban :P
+1 to you sir. Wait, this isn't the LoL forums. Too used to saying that. :P
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 05, 2011, 08:16:04 am
nothing needs to be removed, i have no problem beating these decks.  i think this thread is just a place to complain about losing to something too hard for some people.  here is a suggestion, make a better deck

-edit-

How about instead of complaining about cards, you complain about the fact that your deck can become inactive without it ever playing a game.  my new deck i put up has played 1 and lost but it went down from 257 to 360, whether or not it plays another game, it could break 500 and become inactive.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: QuantumT on July 05, 2011, 09:30:31 am
nothing needs to be removed, i have no problem beating these decks.  i think this thread is just a place to complain about losing to something too hard for some people.  here is a suggestion, make a better deck

-edit-

How about instead of complaining about cards, you complain about the fact that your deck can become inactive without it ever playing a game.  my new deck i put up has played 1 and lost but it went down from 257 to 360, whether or not it plays another game, it could break 500 and become inactive.
From OP:

The result is that at least half the decks you play against are basically the same thing.

If Supernova and Quantum Towers were banned, it would force people to try and use their cards, or at least give a bit more variety.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: sharkweekk on July 05, 2011, 09:37:48 am
This thread seems very strange to me. Lots of people are complaining about how platinum is too hard, or too boring. With conditions like that, I'd think that no one would try to challenge those repetitive decks that constantly beat everyone down so hard. People are surely voting with their feet and playing against the weaker leagues in arena instead of throwing themselves against the same wall repeatedly. Then I pull up the game and I see that everyone is playing platinum and no one is playing gold, so it can't be that bad for everyone. If platinum is too hard for you, you probably should move down to gold. In my experience the gold decks have a better variety and are easier to beat. I was honing my deck last night and was getting EM wins in about half of my games against gold, that's a cool 300 :electrum per game.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: Tiko on July 05, 2011, 10:00:09 am
I did not vote in the poll, because I feel the results are very two-sided. Partially, it would sure to get rid of the most annoying (and boring somewhat) decks floating around - which are, with False God powers, are really hard to take on sometimes -, but on the other hand, Quantum Towers and Supernovae can be also the spine of some very interesting, even creative and original decks. Although sadly, there's not much experimenting around lately, as I see it, especially in the Arena.

The best target(s) for a possible banning, in my opinion, would be the shards; as there is a reason why False Gods too are prohibited from using them. It is a solution that would cripple some of the decks in subject too, though, it would still leave a notable amount untouched.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: QuantumT on July 05, 2011, 10:18:17 am
Old poll locked and new one with more options added.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Calindu on July 05, 2011, 10:30:18 am
SoG,maybe sanctuary too,is not funny to be deck-outed by 12 SoG's and rest pillars and sanctuaryes.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: coinich on July 05, 2011, 10:48:37 am
Bring a Pulvy.  Problem solved.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: pie on July 05, 2011, 10:52:36 am
How about instead of banning cards , If Dexterity = 2 ( Double deck/draw ) then you can't have more than 3(?) of the same card in your arena deck .
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Calindu on July 05, 2011, 11:04:02 am
How about instead of banning cards , If Dexterity = 2 ( Double deck/draw ) then you can't have more than 3(?) of the same card in your arena deck .
In that case no one will use Dexterity.

Bring a Pulvy.  Problem solved.
I can't use pulvy with RoL/hope.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Seraph on July 05, 2011, 02:20:41 pm
I'm confused about the premise, do you mean to ban the cards entirely? or just to ban them from being the oracle given cards

I really wish pillars in general (and maybe novas) weren't spinnable in the oracle, because they aren't really cards at all, but building blocks of decks. Hmm, I'm babbling now, but you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 05, 2011, 03:10:03 pm
How about instead of complaining about cards, you complain about the fact that your deck can become inactive without it ever playing a game.  my new deck i put up has played 1 and lost but it went down from 257 to 360, whether or not it plays another game, it could break 500 and become inactive.
This has more to do with the fact that losses have a huge impact on rating. If your deck doesn't have an 80%+ win rate from the get go it's going to flush out pretty quickly.

By the same token, though, a deck can climb back up in the rankings pretty easily as other decks get wiped out. Just because a deck hits 500 doesn't mean it will never get played again--there's a good chance that a bunch of decks above it will get drummed out to make room again, so you often get a second shot. If you lose again at that point, though, you're pretty much outta luck.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova and Quantum Tower from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: coinich on July 05, 2011, 10:50:26 pm
How about instead of banning cards , If Dexterity = 2 ( Double deck/draw ) then you can't have more than 3(?) of the same card in your arena deck .
In that case no one will use Dexterity.

Bring a Pulvy.  Problem solved.
I can't use pulvy with RoL/hope.
Bring another deck.  No deck can win vs everything; expecting to float through Arena like you can AI3 or halfbloods is completely wrong.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: FSK on July 05, 2011, 11:14:12 pm
The problem is the double-draw.  Cards that are balanced for 1x draw are unbalanced with 2x draw.

Consider explosion.

With 1x draw, you're sacrificing one draw to cancel one of your opponent's draws - balanced.

With 2x draw, you're sacrificing 1/2 draw to cancel one of your opponent's draws - broken.

Many of the low-cost cards are balanced for 1x draw, but unbalanced for double-draw.

I'd like to see an area of the Arena where double-draw isn't allowed.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: majofa on July 05, 2011, 11:17:05 pm
The problem is the double-draw.  Cards that are balanced for 1x draw are unbalanced with 2x draw.

Consider explosion.

With 1x draw, you're sacrificing one draw to cancel one of your opponent's draws - balanced.

With 2x draw, you're sacrificing 1/2 draw to cancel one of your opponent's draws - broken.

Many of the low-cost cards are balanced for 1x draw, but unbalanced for double-draw.

I'd like to see an area of the Arena where double-draw isn't allowed.
Bronze League
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: QuantumT on July 06, 2011, 12:19:52 am
Yet another poll added
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Ace of Souls on July 06, 2011, 12:58:28 am
When I was thinking about ways to solve the problem, I didn't think it was a big deal in terms of balance.  I thought the arena would be less fun if people just used the same rainbow deck + the oracle's cards.

But, now that CCCB outlined just how easy it is to to that, I get the feeling more people are going to switch to his oracleBow deck idea, and make the arena even more monotonous.

In my opinion, it's a bad idea to just ban cards that encourage the oracleBow deck idea, and instead encourage their use some other way, like making the oracle's cards not count towards your deck's limits.  In other words, with the 5 copies of the card the oracle uses, plus the 6 you can use, you are allowed 11 copies of that card in your deck.  This allows new decks that wouldn't be possible with standard rules, and therefore a neat challenge for skilled deckmakers.

OR, in reference to the poll you created, crutch decks by requiring them to include 5 of some specific quanta source for the element of the card they got from the oracle.  So the only sources could be mark, pillars(except qualtum pillar), pendulums, ability (devour, etc...) , or the likes of soulcatcher, solar buckler, etc.

I think that just banning rainbows altogether is a bad idea.  I have seen a few good decks that needed rainbow pillars or supernovas that didn't just clone the oracleBow.  A mass mindgate deck, mass improve deck, and even a clever rainbow poison deck that I'm afraid to leak out many more details of :p  Rainbow quanta sources are a necessary addition to quite a few good decks.  And telling these players that their deck isn't allowed isn't fair to them.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 06, 2011, 01:01:48 am
Voted NO.  Why you ask, and you did say to explain.  EVERYTHING IS JUST FINE THE WAY IT IS.  If you haven't noticed by your previous polls, majority of people do not want any change at all.  So quit QQ'ing about the way the arena is and suck it up and play the way it is.

This IS NOT supposed to be super easy so everyone can make 50k electrum a day.  Give it up already, majority rules, and that means no change.  I request a topic lock please, because you cannot fix what is not broken.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: LifeLockable on July 06, 2011, 01:11:18 am
Look i think that the arena should be a simple challenge of skill, and incorporating more deck building rules would open up a new spectrum of things to the table not only challenging the players of arena but the deckbuilders too, rainbows make the challenge aspect of it zero for the deckbuilding, that is why I'm voting yes in the limitations because I want to see what people come up with then just a rainbow with a bit of everything in it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: inthisroom on July 06, 2011, 01:22:01 am
At first, I voted everything's fine, but then I changed my vote to SoG, I don't mind SoG being part of the game but if something had to be removed, the shard of gratitude would probably be the only option that wouldn't cripple the game too much, even though I think in a Rainbow they would probably just be replaced by Sanctuaries so it wouldn't change that much.

I don't believe removing SN or QP would be a good idea, they're part of too many different decks and it would mutilate the game, in the old t50 you had to face a lot of speedbows and regular rainbows already and even though they can be annoying, the right deck can beat them a fair number of times.

So here's my vote: Everything's fine, but if anything had to be altered, SoG would probably be the only option.

And here's my advice: If you can't beat them, play a lower league or build a better deck.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Addicted on July 06, 2011, 01:23:38 am
I think people are forgetting about the people who don't play this for hours and hours each day, or haven't played for a VERY long time. I have CCYB 1.27 with all upgraded cards and thats about it for upgraded cards. I don't have stacks of electrum to go and by cards and upgrade them, just to be thrown into an arena deck for 3 days.

Making rules cutting out the cards that new people use to farm is just gonna make their decks get pushed down the list.
If i had money, then i would make crazier decks to test out. I play trainer just because i like making decks i can't afford here. I got a photon in the oracle so i just threw up my T50 farming deck (fire rush) and that saves me from spending alot more money to build a deck then i win from letting it sit in the arena
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: QuantumT on July 06, 2011, 01:27:14 am
I think people are forgetting about the people who don't play this for hours and hours each day, or haven't played for a VERY long time. I have CCYB 1.27 with all upgraded cards and thats about it for upgraded cards. I don't have stacks of electrum to go and by cards and upgrade them, just to be thrown into an arena deck for 3 days.

Making rules cutting out the cards that new people use to farm is just gonna make their decks get pushed down the list.
If i had money, then i would make crazier decks to test out. I play trainer just because i like making decks i can't afford here. I got a photon in the oracle so i just threw up my T50 farming deck (fire rush) and that saves me from spending alot more money to build a deck then i win from letting it sit in the arena
So use unupped cards. With double draw and the like, you should be able to build very competitive decks without upped cards.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 06, 2011, 01:32:04 am
Don't dictate how a person should make their arena decks.  That is the bottom line of all of this, and you QT said you were bored of seeing all these rainbows, well the same problem existed in t50, lots of rainbows.  No one is forcing anyone to participate.  The rainbows are not that hard to beat, so if you like money, vote no.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: LifeLockable on July 06, 2011, 01:50:07 am
The difference of T-50 SpeedBow decks and arena speedbow decks is they simply are outclassed with double draws and double the card it just overwhelms everything, I realize a perfect deck doesnt exist but I have played like 200 arena games today and have only run into a mono or duo like four or five times, which is just rediculous, its taking the fun out of the game and I need my rares that I cant get otherwise or else I wouldnt play arena at all
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Addicted on July 06, 2011, 01:59:32 am
Its not just upgrading cards, its just buying them. If i spend 1000 electrum to make a deck that makes 100 electrum that is a big loss for new people. 1000 electrum or more is easy to spend on a new deck where you have none of the cards
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 06, 2011, 02:04:49 am
play the rank you can beat.  meaning, if you cant beat platinum go down to gold.  if you cant beat gold, go down to silver.  if you cant beat silver go down to bronze.  if you cant beat bronze, go to ai3.  if you cant beat ai3, uninstall your browser.

I can beat platinum regularly, so there is at least one deck good enough to do so.  Grinding in general is boring, so complaining about just rainbow decks is pathetic.  how about if everyone made firestall decks and we werent allowed to use reflect shields?  wouldnt be very fun would it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Ace of Souls on July 06, 2011, 02:44:17 am
I don't think people are complaining about losing a lot to rainbow decks.  Rainbow decks are just one more deck to beat.  You can't just say, "rainbow decks are hard to play against so they shouldn't be allowed."  I think the complaining is due to the lack of variety from T500 since a rainbow deck doesn't need much changing to incorporate the oracle's pick for a card.

If you want to encourage variety, I think you need to find a way to do that which DOESN'T remove part of the game.  Incentivize the oracle's card more than just providing it for free if you want more decks to use the oracle's card.  If zanz's goal was creative decks, then removing 1 of the 13 pillars in the game is just going to make creativity harder.

Bucky is right.  A ban on quantum pillars and supernovas just because they're easier to incorporate the oracle's pick isn't fair to the people who do use quantum pillars "correctly" in their arena decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: QuantumT on July 06, 2011, 02:54:16 am
Believe it or not, it's actually restrictions that encourage creativity. When you allow people to do whatever they want, they'll usually just do the same things over and over.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 06, 2011, 04:07:18 am
The stats are made so that Platinum players can have all the advantages of a False God, and in effect build their own False-God-like decks. By that logic, they should have the same limitations as False Gods.

Are Quantum Towers and Supernovas banned in False Gods? Rainbow, Destiny, Dream Catcher, Chaos Lord, Jezebel and Lionheart (to a small extent) all use one or both of these cards. However, that still leaves 23 Gods that do not. Compared to at least 90% of Platinum decks using them, this could be a problem. So maybe they should be banned.

As for shards, no False Gods use shards. None. I personally think they are not allowed to. The obvious reason for this is that no one wants to fight a deck with 12 SoGs + 12 SoDs. Yet these decks are scattered all around Platinum.

I don't know if QTs and SNs should be banned. It would add a LOT more variety, but there are other ways to do this (Oracle chooses Mark, deck type, etc.). However, in my opinion, shards do need to be banned, at the very least against double draw opponents.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: hainkarga on July 06, 2011, 04:32:37 am
How many people here are actually NOT using any of the suggested cards to ban?  And what category are you in, I wanna grind each category for a bit to see what decks are there.

lmao @ marv
rage more please, it entertains me
Voted yes to ban QP, and not using any of the cards in the poll. Won 60, lost 5 times with my duo in platinum after modifying once.  i submited another duo w/o mentioned cards, its 8-0 atm (i expect a very nice rank with it) and intend to make non-rainbows as often as i can. But I only find rainbow decks tasteless and boring, i think they are technically fine to fight with/against.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: SilentFH on July 06, 2011, 04:41:26 am
As for shards, no False Gods use shards. None. The obvious reason for this is that no one wants to fight a deck with 12 SoGs + 12 SoDs. Yet these decks are scattered all around Platinum. In my opinion, shards do need to be banned, at the very least against double draw opponents.
Agreed with this.

I think though, I will change my mind on the new poll cast. While I still think the shards should not be permitted to be used by arena decks (The AI controlled ones), I'm going to change my mind on the quantum tower issue and say they are okay. (I originally voted ban QT, for reference).

The reason I say this is because I feel in some cases, setting up a sub-optimal rainbow is the only hope for some of the oracle chosen cards. As an example, I got a dusk mantle from the oracle a few days back. Needless to say, my attempt at making a build around FIVE of those shields failed miserably (Tried to make a GotP/Nightmare build with hourglasses). Had I thought to make some sort of rainbow though, I strongly suspect I may have had a better chance of not getting knocked out in an hour or two, perhaps even earn myself some electrum. My point would be that if you were to remove quantum towers, you would probably have a knock-on effect of further cards players would want banned because you simply would be too disadvantaged by the oracle's pick of a card.

But perhaps then I'd need to explain why my above thoughts should apply only to quantum towers and not shards. Asides from Xenocidius' point, Shards just make any deck much better and much more advantageous than it would normally be to run, even more so when combined with false-god like properties. On the other hand, quantum towers can only do this if the rest of the build either works with the oracle card, or can function well to offset the disadvantage of the oracle's choice.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: jmizzle7 on July 06, 2011, 05:03:26 am
 Global Moderator Comment This is a discussion, not a soapbox upon which forum members are allowed to harass other forum members. Disagreements happen, and are a part of any controversial discussion. Any flaming/provoking will be removed, and the offending user will be messaged/disciplined accordingly.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 06, 2011, 05:53:57 am
My point would be that if you were to remove quantum towers, you would probably have a knock-on effect of further cards players would want banned because you simply would be too disadvantaged by the oracle's pick of a card.
Sure, but you know you dont need submit decks everyday. If you get a useless card, skip submitting a deck with it. After 3 days your deck just get -8HP, and still can fight.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: SilentFH on July 06, 2011, 06:07:26 am
My point would be that if you were to remove quantum towers, you would probably have a knock-on effect of further cards players would want banned because you simply would be too disadvantaged by the oracle's pick of a card.
Sure, but you know you dont need submit decks everyday. If you get a useless card, skip submitting a deck with it. After 3 days your deck just get -8HP, and still can fight.
That is very dependent on your previous submission though, as the previous build must get to such as position where you don't have to use the oracle's next card.
To expand further on my example, the day before dusk mantle, I got a hope shield, so obviously RoL/Hope seemed like a good option. It got to 16-8 but upon ageing dropped out of the T500.

Next oracle card was dusk mantle.

Not many options left for me there...
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: kiszol on July 06, 2011, 02:50:13 pm
Banning QT and SN cards from Arena is clearly unfair with smaller players because of the lack of upgraded cards. They usually have some upped QTs and SNovas but that's all. Think about it. Using double draw and 2x or 3x mark will not solve the problem. Why should have the more experienced players more variety in their deckbuilding?

I have 2 suggestions to solve this problem:
1. SoGs definitely have to be banned, no question about that. Decks with 6x SoG and 6x Sanctuary are clearly unfair and kills the game, this is no fun at all.
2. Maybe QTs and SNs should be banned from the Gold league (while QPs and Novas still could be used imo) and QT, QP, SN and Nova cards should be banned from Platinum. This way the players with more Electrum and upped or unupped cards will must be creative and build less boring decks. However "smaller" players, who are in Silver or Bronze league will still be able to use all of their cards.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: LifeLockable on July 06, 2011, 03:30:21 pm
I agree with what kizol says about ze banning the higher up you go the more restrictions, seems like it would keep the challenge aspect up because the rainbows arent that deadly in silver and bronze
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: SriVastra on July 06, 2011, 03:44:26 pm
Shards are definitely a problem for me.  I'm not exactly an advocate for banning them, but I saw a decent argument for it at the very least.  It does seem that the platinum league is where players can, in a way, create their own false god decks, and it is very true that false gods do not use shards.  My solution to this has just been not to play the platinum league at all.  To me, this definitely says something is wrong.  The only reason I can think of for playing in platinum (or gold, to a lesser extent) is to get my butt kicked.  On purpose.  Who would want that??

This is also coming from a not-as-new-as-his-forum-status-would-suggest-but-still-nowhere-near-the-scrooge-mcduck-level-of-wealth-that-most-people-on-here-seem-to-have-achieved player *gasp*...   so I'm still trying to amass my fortune and build a "decent" deck.  The issue is I can't think of any way to beat what is essentially a false god with 440hp and a possible (read:probable) 60+ regeneration.  ...ok, maybe a firebolt deck with some HEAVY stall tactics.  But that's it.

As far as banning anything other than shards goes, I don't think there is a problem.  You can ban the more "broken" cards all you want, but there will still always be a "best" deck that people will copy.  Right now I'm seeing nothing but rainbow decks or some version of tiny creature -> immolation/cremation -> phoenix/lava guardian (or 'flaming baby decks', as I call them).  If you ban QT, or nova, or immolation, or any other card (possible exception for shards), someone will just build a new "best" deck out of what cards remain and then people will start wanting the core cards in there banned too.  That being said; holy crap people!  Show some creativity!  I just played 20 games in silver league and at LEAST 10 of them were flaming baby decks that weren't even using the oracle card, with most of the remaining 10 being standard rainbows with the oracle card just thrown in.

Closing topic:  Skill points

When I first started playing the arena, I thought dexterity was just a double draw.  Shortly thereafter, I find out through a first hand thwomping that it is also a double DECK.  As in it takes your 35-60 card deck, and doubles what's in it.  Simple concept.  Simple, but broken.  Allowing 12 copies of every card into a single deck is ridiculously overpowered.  12 earthquakes?  There go all my pillars.  12 deflagrations?  There go all my permanents.  12 of any damage spell?  I'm either about to lose my creatures or most of my face.  12 shards?  You just took the false out of false god.  That advantage is just...yeah.  Bad.  Evil.  Nasty.  Do not want.  I no can has win.  Etc.

My suggestion for the above issue is rather than doubling up the deck, why not just double the deck limit?  One of the best features of dexterity is a huge card pool that makes it nearly impossible to deck out.  Allowing a player to create their own 70-120 card deck while still using the 6 copy rule would radically diminish the problem without banning shards.

For the rest of the skills, I am of the opinion that they should all cost more.  My reasoning for this is, again, the buggery I receive every time I try to play platinum.  Every single deck has their skills maxed out.  Everyone is the same.  No strengths or weaknesses, just maxed out in all regards.  If you raise skill costs, you create more room for personality in the decks that will be made.  Not only will it make bronze and silver a little easier (which, by definition, they should be) but it will cause gold and platinum decks to differ in skill.  Some will have high health pools, but not a ton of upgrades.  Some will have huge decks and a more powerful mark but not quite so much hp.  This, to me, is a much better option than just having every deck be the same kind of kick-your-face-in powerful.

Now allow me to be the first to say...  tl;dr  ;D
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 06, 2011, 04:07:56 pm
I won an upped shard of divinity, which means you can win upped shards of gratitude.  So banning them would mean you can no longer win them.  Who wants that?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: VegeForsaken on July 06, 2011, 04:36:40 pm
i cant come out with a suggested solution right now, but id like to suggest the point of view, wich comes out mostly from the fact i played MTG for years, and saw wizards' mistakes.

i dunno if those cards are imba in the arena contest, cant say really; it's true that Arena feels bit overcrowded with reknowned raimbows, and that few players try to use fantasy and take it easy doin funny yet not that strong decks.
But banning cards, wich is a specifical arrangement for a specifical issue aint the right point of view imo. Point is not Where do i restricts things, point shud be, how i encourage players at havin the desired behaviour. me; why wud i want to play arena? why wud i want to make new and various decks for arena ai? why i wudn want to put the oracle card in the usual and functional old raimbow? etc.. This is the questions on wich Zanzarino shud focus at right now imo. Dont ban, encourage ppl to have fun/gain from the behaviour you and us all wud enjoy the most.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: willng3 on July 06, 2011, 04:51:50 pm
I won an upped shard of divinity, which means you can win upped shards of gratitude.  So banning them would mean you can no longer win them.  Who wants that?
Except that you win upped shards from the special spin which is completely unaffected by the cards currently in your deck; banning them from decks in the Arena wouldn't affect winning them at all.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: bioglond on July 06, 2011, 04:54:42 pm
Agree to VegeForsaken.
How about modify an arena deck's oppotunity to be played against based on its card usage? The more popular card you put in your arena deck, the less frequency it would be played against. That should encourage people to be more creative.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Rainchild on July 06, 2011, 06:16:59 pm
Agree with Bioglond.


Each card could have a 'weight' calculated by counting how many of those cards exist on the top500 decks.

'Weight' of the deck would be the average 'weight' of it's cards.

The 'weight' of the deck could influence how often it gets played.


'Light' decks would get more opponents, 'heavier' decks would get less opponents.


The 'weight' of each different card could be calculated from the top500 decks once per day, around the time Oracle resets.


This would encourage people to try to use varied cards, and we would encounter more and more different decks.

(It still might not mean that certain decks wouldn't be on the top, as they tend to lose less? But that's ok.)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: omegareaper7 on July 06, 2011, 06:47:06 pm
Agree to VegeForsaken.
How about modify an arena deck's oppotunity to be played against based on its card usage? The more popular card you put in your arena deck, the less frequency it would be played against. That should encourage people to be more creative.
No, 1/500 chance is low enough.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 06, 2011, 07:52:35 pm
Quote
Except that you win upped shards from the special spin which is completely unaffected by the cards currently in your deck; banning them from decks in the Arena wouldn't affect winning them at all.
That was not my point.  The fact that we can win such a rare card already upgraded now compared to when people had to donate to get them, then to the point where you could win unupped shards very easily from t50.  Donating costs money, so that is very user independant, but t50 any could do, and get them easily, now we have a new way to win upgraded ones.  So it should be hard, especially since we can still win upgraded cards from fgs, there is no reason to ban any card being used in arena decks.  People need to suck it up and stick it out or go back to farming FG's.

The reward dictates how hard something is.  So since arena can be harder than fgs, the reward is more.  Banning cards could make it easier, well most likely would, and the reward would have to be lowered as well, to keep balance.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 06, 2011, 08:02:33 pm
No, 1/500 chance is low enough.
What if it was the ranking algorithm that was skewed? Keep the number of matches unbiased, but make it subtly harder to stay in the top 500 if you've got a cookie-cutter deck. I think that a system designed to promote the few best versions of various deck styles would be keeping with the spirit and theme of T500.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: majofa on July 06, 2011, 08:11:42 pm
Just a thought. When the Oracle spins it lights up X amount of elements. You can only use cards of those elements in your deck. (Any MARK) ... X could be anywhere from 2-12. The element of the card you get is always lit up.

(forgive my poor editing skills)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd209966/oracle_wheel.jpg)

Thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Jaymanfu on July 06, 2011, 08:14:51 pm
That would be a lot of fun trying to make the best deck with the elements given.

Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Jenkar on July 06, 2011, 08:21:04 pm
As i said in chat : i believe things should be dependent on your league.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Amilir on July 06, 2011, 10:08:55 pm
majofa's idea is the best I've seen by a wide margin.
I could probably think of more reasons, but I know what I want.  Vote majofa!
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 07, 2011, 01:49:26 am
Gotta love majofa's epic editing skills :D

Seriously though, that's a great idea, but you say shards would still be allowed? That implies that other cards would be allowed, and therefore Quantum Towers. Still, the elemental restrictions would limit their usage, so it's not a problem. Is X constant or random?

I imagine in-game it would grey out all the boxes of the elements you are not allowed to use.

(http://i53.tinypic.com/2ns3ok0.jpg)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: parasite99 on July 07, 2011, 02:02:38 am
+1 for majofa's idea

would bring some fun and creativity in Arena
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 07, 2011, 02:26:09 am
Give it up already, majority rules, and that means ban SoGs.
Oh, yeah, and looks like majority will in some time vote to ban QT, lol (although we know majority does not rules, lol).

I also liked majofa idea, although would prefer 4 elements allowed at least.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (New Poll added)
Post by: Ashebrethafe on July 07, 2011, 03:03:34 am
I voted not to require a certain fraction of the deck to match the Oracle's element. I think newer players, who may have cards in only one or two elements and not much money to buy more, should be able to add or assimilate the Oracle card into their current deck and see how it performs. (By "assimilate," I mean add it along with the right number of pillars to get a good QI for the card's element.)

On the other hand, such decks may be better than I think -- my current deck at any given time is probably not one of the "standard" decks that people are protesting; and being an "indefinitely new" player (I keep resetting my accounts), I have only played bronze league so far.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 07, 2011, 04:46:25 am
Exactly, what Ashebrethafe said.

Stop this nonsense altogether.  New people don't start out with every card, so their decks won't be uber rainbow types.  You can play against what ever deck they stick into the arena at bronze level if things are too hard the way they are.  I believe that is why there are different levels.  If you are too bored playing against rainbow decks, ask all 500+ people in what ever category you like playing if they would kindly come up with something more creative, because their deck bores you.  Honestly, if you are bored playing against any kind of deck, take a break until the next set of cards are released.  You will come back to brand new cards and new decks to play against. 

Also, since the arena is still new, the idea that someone that has hardly played it can't really know what is best in terms of change for it.  Being bored after such a short time only means the problem is not the arena it is the person playing against arena decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 07, 2011, 06:04:40 am
^ Lolololol, looks hopeless.

More I play, more I hate arena being 80% rainbows. And looks like people is just realizing the same thing.

I think if we are going to have elements restrictions, this shouldnt apply to bronze league. Like said, newbie players dont have many cards, and in bronze league people is not allowed to use double draw, that is part of the problem.

More I think more I believe the simple way to solve the problem would be ban QT (and shards of course).
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: zse on July 07, 2011, 07:07:19 am
I think that idea Majofa suggested is just utterly terrible. How on earth would that encourage people for making NOVEL / INVENTIVE decks? All that would cause is making ONLY bunch of no-brain aggros that use the biggest hitters from given Elements. Less room for creativity on deck building leads to even worse decks than the ones we see now.

-1 for Majofa


If anything needs to be done to these brain-fart Rainbow decks, I'd like to see yet another Skill added for giving limits on how many Elements you can use. My idea would basically work like Wisdom Skill, but instead of buying more upped cards for deck, you'd use Skill points to buy more Elements:
0 points = Mono,
2 points = Duo,
4 points = Trio,
6 points = Quartet,
 ... 
22 points = Full Rainbow.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 07, 2011, 09:16:07 am
Oh such a good idea like this every one will use monbrainless deck and keep their point for the other skills.
majofa idea needs work but looks far better
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Angelic_Dawn on July 07, 2011, 09:31:49 am
Zse's idea is quite nice  (, at least in my humble oppinion =) )

It allows any starting player play with the element's he/she got (instead of picking a random forced element they might not even have)
Tho in my oppinion it should be even more expensive

Like so

0 points = Mono,
3 points = Duo,
6 points = Trio,
9 points = Quartet,
 ...
36 points = Full Rainbow.

As even a Starting player who has run trough the basics quests will have at least 500 points, so that'd be...  7 Points  Enough to use even three diffrent elements. (of their choice)


But then again as the Froggy man said that might inspire mono/duo/trio  Decks who totaly disregard the Oracle card just like The rainbows your trying to get rid off.
Would probaly inspire ("Lava") Rush With a dash of or totaly ignore the oracle card.



Short:

Possibly best to get a combination of two such effects  (At least thats what i think =P )

Random Spin a few Elements (3 or so)

And allow for additional buy of more

Like so

6 points = +1 Element of your Choice   
(Why six? -Well as i said in the upper bit, anyone running trough the Quests/Tutorial Will have at least 500 Aka 7 points so they can pick at least 1 element of which they've got cards)

12 points = +2 Element of your Choice
18 points = +3 Element of your Choice
24 points = +4 Element of your Choice
 ...

54 points = Full Rainbow.   (+9 Elements)
(Aka we dont ban rainbows, but still allow them for those who can make such an epic one it doesnt even need a lot of god powers)
 http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28283.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28283.0.html)

Ps: Maybe 6points per additional Element is the wrong number, But you get the idea =p
 

Will this work? Maybe looks like it has a better shot (At least in my head =P )
Probaly not, as most people will still try to get off easy.

So far my pennies, ~Angel.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: kiszol on July 07, 2011, 10:00:37 am
Angelic_Dawn: This is a good idea, but full rainbow would be far too expensive that way. I guess having just mono and duo decks in Arena is not the point, is it? If there are 1 of 4 or 1 of 5 rainbow decks, that's ok imo.
So a maybe better "system":

Mono: 0 additional points (color of the oracle card)
Duo: 4 additional points
Trio: 5 additional points
4-6 used elements: 12 additional points
7-12 used elements: 20 additional points

majofa's idea isn't bad either, but there must be some difference in bronze and platinum about it. For example this rule won't effect bronze at all, it would light up 9 elements in Silver, 6 in gold and 4 in Platinum. This way new players still would be able to play the "full" game.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 07, 2011, 11:13:31 am
Mono: 0 additional points (color of the oracle card)
Duo: 4 additional points
Trio: 5 additional points
4-6 used elements: 12 additional points
7-12 used elements: 20 additional points
This will turn many of the bronze league deck mono fire rush, mono emerald rush or mono aether.  The problem is not really duo or trio, its mainly rainbow.

SoGs in every deck is boring too. Actually I think supernova is a bit OP as a card (the unupped one is fine) but that's another thing though.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: SnoWeb on July 07, 2011, 11:37:23 am
If anything needs to be done to these brain-fart Rainbow decks, I'd like to see yet another Skill added for giving limits on how many Elements you can use. My idea would basically work like Wisdom Skill, but instead of buying more upped cards for deck, you'd use Skill points to buy more Elements:
0 points = Mono,
2 points = Duo,
4 points = Trio,
6 points = Quartet,
 ... 
22 points = Full Rainbow.
This is interesting.
+1 for Zse's idea.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: The_Mormegil on July 07, 2011, 12:39:02 pm
Majofa's idea is awesome and solves more problems than just rainbow decks. It creates a new dimension to deckbuilding that actually forces people to think about each of their decks. I support it 100%.

Just a sidenote: since rainbows are still a part of this game, I think the elements chosen by the Oracle should be 3-5 OR 12, with different chances (like, 1/13 chance of getting 12 colors lit).
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 07, 2011, 12:57:15 pm
Or simply 1-12, each with even probabilities. In other words, 12 allows for any deck, 11 allows for a rainbow with no cards from 1 element (cards with abilities using that element's quanta could be used though), etc.

And what about the Mark? Would any element be allowed for that?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: petersenk on July 07, 2011, 01:01:24 pm
Also the idea with a restricted color pool does not necessarily need to apply to all the leagues there are (and still, the oracle might still open up all colors for you ocasionally, no?). Why not have more such leagues with different rules? Maybe as some "global" side-ladders or something, where anyone is free to participate.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 07, 2011, 02:11:09 pm
I loved zse idea, better than majofa's.

Im all up to balance the skills, by the way. No need to add more levels, I think, because players shouldnt be able to create super decks. Double draw cost could increase, while HP and mark cost could decrease, and add this skill of using more elements. Wants double draw and lots of elements? Ok, but then you will pay a lot and sacrifice amount of HP and upgraded cards. However, I just think duos should be allowed for free.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Calindu on July 07, 2011, 02:29:39 pm
New idea:The oracle cards needs to be playable.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: SriVastra on July 07, 2011, 02:51:29 pm
The only problem I see with Majo's idea is what if it picks three elements that you have few or no cards in?  I don't imagine a lot of players have full sets of everything.  Especially if you're indecisive like me and keep selling all your higher end cards to buy new decks that wind up sucking. :P

I do like the idea of buying extra colors with points.  I'm a little iffy on letting the oracle choose more than one color for you though.  If you get lucky, it'll choose all the colors you need for your "usual" no-brainer deck and we're right back to the first problem.  I don't want to see 1st place taken up by a bunch of beefed up rainbow lovers who got a lucky spin.

Maybe give the hp penalty for keeping your deck around a boost?  I mean, 2hp after a day is nothing.  It doesn't get noticeable until 5 days in when you lose 32, and even that isn't usually a huge deal since most rainbows run 6 phase shields and several sundials.  That way, you would be hard pressed to keep your deck around for more than a couple of days.  Even if you did get a lucky spin for your colors and pile all your points somewhere else, it wouldn't last long.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: UTAlan on July 07, 2011, 03:06:25 pm
I am completely against any of these limitations on Oracle/Arena. The more restrictions you put on this, the less creativity you can have in your deck building. Yes, some people will just throw their card into an oracleBow and not have any fun with it whatsoever, but that is their choice. If they can stay in the top 500 of their league with an oracleBow, by all means have at it. In the long run, the ability to make unique, strong decks will give the most rewards over time.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Hodari on July 07, 2011, 03:14:16 pm
Of the ideas so far, having the number of colors allowed be something you have to spend points on seems like the best.  An even better option though might be to simply add a few more counters for rainbow decks.  Then if rainbows become too popular people can just add those counter cards to their decks and this will force things to balance out again.  What about something like a card which deals 1-2 damage to your opponent for each different type of quanta they have in their pool?  Against a mono or duo this would hardly be noticeable and even a trio would be about the same as a thunderbolt, but against a rainbow 12-24 damage each would add up pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 07, 2011, 03:29:30 pm
I am completely against any of these limitations on Oracle/Arena. The more restrictions you put on this, the less creativity you can have in your deck building.
As counter-intuitive as it is, restrictions tend to help creativity. The old proverb that necessity is the mother of invention speaks to this; unique problems beget unique solutions.

That said, anything that outright bans entire types of decks is going to be a bad solution. It's only putting off the problem; whack rainbows, and there will probably just be a couple of other common archetypes that take over (cremation rush and life rush already seem fairly popular, and a rainbowless environment would likely consist of the same few popular mono decks over and over again.) Not exactly a big improvement. Randomized restrictions from the Oracle are a better solution, since at least that way you're forcing diversity. The best solution would probably be one that encourages but does not require diversity. Introducing more counters for specific deck styles would be one possibility, although again, focusing too much on nerfing particular problem decks is not going to fix diversity issues in the arena itself. I still think the ideal solution here would probably involve having the arena give a slight boost (in terms of ratings or payout) for decks with a more unique construction vs. carbon copy decks that are essentially the same as a bunch of others already in the same league.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 07, 2011, 03:32:42 pm
Please discontinue this topic.  Let people play what ever deck they want to.  It is ridiculous to limit people when the rewards are so high.  So if you think the arena will become easier from banning cards, well, you wont be earning as much either. 
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ggabriel2 on July 07, 2011, 04:23:16 pm
Let's all stop acting like hitler and discontinue this topic.  Let people play what ever deck they want to.  It is ridiculous to limit people when the rewards are so high.  So if you think the arena will become easier from banning cards, well, you wont be earning as much either. 
Ok, you got us. This thread is in actuality a genocidal plot and we are all in fact acting like Hitler here.

If you're going to liken a discussion of ways to encourage creativity in an online game to mass murder, though, could you at least pick a more creative example? When people are brainstorming suggestions (not demands!) about ways to spur the development of a more interesting and ultimately more challenging playing environment, perhaps you could liken them instead to Pol Pot, Tito, or Leopold II. That way you still get across the idea that the other side of the debate is literally comparable to many of the worst mass murderers in history, without falling back on the boring old standby of Hitler.

But then, you've firmly established that you are personally against any form of creativity and have repeatedly announced your intention to resist any change in favor of boring old standbys, so your lack of originality in your insults is probably to be expected.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 07, 2011, 05:14:02 pm
hitler was a dictator, what part of that did you not get?  he wanted things HIS WAY and you people want the arena YOUR WAY.  like there was no problem with the jews, there is no problem with the arena.  so just leave things alone.

Quote
But then, you've firmly established that you are personally against any form of creativity and have repeatedly announced your intention to resist any change in favor of boring old standbys, so your lack of originality in your insults is probably to be expected.
this makes no sense.  banning cards limits creativity.  think before you speak.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: CCCombobreaker on July 07, 2011, 05:18:32 pm
Let's all stop acting like hitler and discontinue this topic.  Let people play what ever deck they want to.  It is ridiculous to limit people when the rewards are so high.  So if you think the arena will become easier from banning cards, well, you wont be earning as much either. 
Godwin's law is for reals and that makes me sad... -1 Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 07, 2011, 07:10:45 pm
hitler was a dictator, what part of that did you not get?  he wanted things HIS WAY and you people want the arena YOUR WAY.  like there was no problem with the jews, there is no problem with the arena.  so just leave things alone.

Quote
But then, you've firmly established that you are personally against any form of creativity and have repeatedly announced your intention to resist any change in favor of boring old standbys, so your lack of originality in your insults is probably to be expected.
this makes no sense.  banning cards limits creativity.  think before you speak.
Its just a terrible comparison. Even democratic countries have rules that limit things people can do. This is specially important when things are one-sided. Laws that forbid commercial monopolies are an example of this.

In fact, Hitler government was one that used to try blocking freedom of ideas and discussion, like you are trying to do. You should be the 1st to think before posting.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: LifeLockable on July 07, 2011, 08:15:58 pm
this is a discussion about the arena not about hitler and other forms of governement, I think bucky should refrain from posting in this thread anymore as he is just repeating the same things over and over and he is getting more insulting with each post
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: pervepic on July 07, 2011, 08:21:06 pm
I don't know, I don't need any of those restrictions; therefore I tend to believe that nobody needs it. If someone wants to play lame decks and copy others then he will do so no matter what the rules are. Soon there will be topics like "what would you do if Oracle gives you earth card" anyway.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: hainkarga on July 07, 2011, 09:57:30 pm
I couldn't find a suitable thread, so i will just post my my two thoughts here.
How about;

- Having an unupped league, in which anyone with any score can submit unupped decks and the challengers' decks will automatically be converted to unupped versions just like PvP1. . It would be more about the deckbuilding than power of upped cards and we would get rid of shards & supernova.

- Players in the upper leagues can submit decks to lower leagues, with limited stats to maximum level of that league.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: silux on July 07, 2011, 10:20:57 pm
This is just asking about banning Rainbow decks from the arena.
No.

I don't have many upped cards outside my rainbow deck and SoG is quite hard to obtain.
If you ban rainbow cards, many players will have troubles in building decks!
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 07, 2011, 11:29:14 pm
I couldn't find a suitable thread, so i will just post my my two thoughts here.
How about;

- Having an unupped league, in which anyone with any score can submit unupped decks and the challengers' decks will automatically be converted to unupped versions just like PvP1. . It would be more about the deckbuilding than power of upped cards and we would get rid of shards & supernova.

- Players in the upper leagues can submit decks to lower leagues, with limited stats to maximum level of that league.
1st idea doesnt make much sense to me. Bronze league has almost no upped cards, silver also doesnt has that much. If you dont have upped cards, you simply shouldnt play the higher leagues, because its intended to be hard. This would also add something else to consider when creating a deck that I dunno if its a good idea. For example, if you have a FFQ deck, your fireflies will produce light quanta if unupped and fire if upped. A deck created to work upped wouldnt work otherwise.

2nd idea would be more interesting, but considering how lower leagues are overcrowded and how low is the reward for each deck win in that leagues, I doubt anyone would do it. Anyway, wouldnt be fair to people in lv 19, usually with little card arsenal, to compete with lv 70 people that have tons of each card.

This is just asking about banning Rainbow decks from the arena.
No.

I don't have many upped cards outside my rainbow deck and SoG is quite hard to obtain.
If you ban rainbow cards, many players will have troubles in building decks!
Yeah, I would love to ban rainbows from arena :)

No one said submitting a good deck would be easy. What you want is to submit the very same deck everyday, huh? How about thinking about new decks? You can always upgrade some key cards (some of the upgrades have little effects that arent really necessary). And if you cant, you can decide not waste skill points in Wisdom and take other advantages.

SoGs? What do you mean? That people that dont have shards should try get them in normal spins after defeating gold / platinum decks? Lololololol. I challenge you to farm the higher leagues (you can use your upped deck if you want) and get 6+ shards from normal spins. If you can do that, maybe you have a point about not banning shards :P
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 08, 2011, 12:17:39 am
Well you can win shards fully upgraded, and being that these are more rare than weapons, banning them would mean either not being able to win them at all and having to donate like before in order to get them, or only being able to win them unupped from the special spins from gold/platinum. 

I think everyone is forgetting that you DON'T have to play against the arena for money, you can farm FG's.  Once you have made sufficient money against them, you make a great deck to use against gold/platinum to start winning shards.  My FG farmer doesn't contain shards so you don't need them either.  I don't use them against arena decks, so you don't need them for that either.

So if you really want cards banned, and this thread doesn't mean it will happen anyway, you will have to remember

MORE RESTRICTIONS = FEWER REWARDS

so make your choice wisely.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 08, 2011, 01:50:12 am
I dont believe you are not able to understand a simple thing:

- In any leagues, normal spins after each battle DO NOT give upgraded cards. They can give unupgraded cards that were in the deck you just defeated (usually not rares). Defeating these rainbows '12 Shards' decks using a poor newbie deck is almost impossible, and even IF you win a lot, you would need tons of victories to get a couple of shards. These decks are not farms. Ban SoGs wouldnt make shards harder to get to people that dont have them.
- Bonus (special) spin after a winning streak only in Gold and Platinum leagues can give upgraded rares that DO NOT match the cards in the decks you just defeated, while in Bronze and Silver, they can give unupgraded rares that DO NOT match cards in the decks you played. Ban SoGs wouldnt make harder to get them (special spins are not related to any decks). Actually, for people that dont have shards or other rares, the best option seems to be play Bronze league, where you can win unupgraded Shards even when the (much easier than Gold / Platinum) decks you defeat dont use them.

Why dont you stop crying? Making harder to submit rainbows will make submiting good decks harder... FOR EVERYONE. Whats the problem if you try different things and become a better deck builder instead of sending the same deck over and over and over again? It would still be a fine competition, rules are to all.

Mainly, please stop spamming wrong info just because you cant stand the discussion.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 08, 2011, 02:33:39 am
What I say is not wrong.  I never said the shards came from the persons deck, aka the initial first 3 spins.

Quote
Defeating these rainbows '12 Shards' decks using a poor newbie deck is almost impossible,
Why would you be using a newbie deck against gold or platinum????  Would you use a newbie deck against a false god?  Well you might, but majority of people know better than to do something so foolish.

There is no reason, no valid reason, to restrict how a person makes their deck in the arena.  QT's reason is because he is bored of playing against rainbows.  Well guess what, there are 500 people you can play against, so until you play against all 500, which will never happen, and you keep track of all their decks on a daily basis, which you can't, and once you figure out that majority of the decks are just common rainbow decks, then this thread might hold a bit of validity.  I've been knocked down to rank 1400 by only having 4 losses, and with people constantly being knocked in of the t500 and then make it back in, and since a lot of people make a new deck on a daily basis which resets their rank, there is no way to know what the majority of decks are. 

Quote
Why dont you stop crying?
Don't flame.

Quote
Making harder to submit rainbows will make submiting good decks harder... FOR EVERYONE. Whats the problem if you try different things and become a better deck builder instead of sending the same deck over and over and over again? It would still be a fine competition, rules are to all.
I personally don't make rainbow decks for t500 anyway, so you're arguing against someone that is against any bans, but uses the oracle card to make decks, based on the element.  I canceled my idea of having the mega healer, and now I have a destroyer rush in play, oracle gave me chaos power.
Now why would you want deck building to be harder for EVERYONE?  I don't think new people would like this very much, considering they have very limited resources.  By restricting people to only a few elements in their deck will only mean people will use the annoyingly hard mono/duo decks.  GotP/nightmare, discord/blackhole, firestall w/sancs (can go light mark x3) and so on.  I would rather face a deck I have a good chance of beating (the rainbows) then any of those 3 I mentioned.  None of this will make people create decks, they will just use decks that are really good and already made.  No one will be creative at all.  And that's the bottom line.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 08, 2011, 04:35:13 am
Care to explain your point about "MORE RESTRICTIONS = FEWER REWARDS"? Because ban SoGs wont make them unavaliable in the bonus spin, if you dont know. It will make them unavaliable in normal spins, where the chance of a person that dont have them (possibly a newbie) get them, considering the win rate, should be like 0,1%, if not lower. And yeah, just a newbie would try get upped shards directly from Gold / Platinum instead of getting them in Bronze league. Ban SoGs wouldnt do any bad to people without shards, as you claim.

To me, there is a super valid reason to restrict how people make decks: diversity, and then a more enjoyable and interesting experience to all.

New people would probably be the ones that care less about ban QT and Shards, they usually dont use them. Rainbows usually require a lot of upgraded cards. Anyway, if a person is lv 10-19 and is in a competition vs people of same level, and under same rules, its fair even being harder. Make a good deck and win. Why everyone needs an easy option to use a rainbow deck? Doesnt it beat the purpose of using the oracle card in the deck?

According to you: annoying monos/duos = bad; annoying rainbows = good. The reason? You are a "pro rainbow slayer", huh? Oh, great, you beat them all. Other people dont. If there is a diversity of hard decks (looks like its the idea that scares you), then you will win less, and other people will win more. You can create a deck that can have some good match ups and some bad match ups, as everyone. Balanced, enjoyable, just... perfect. And I bet we will see good decks you havent even imagined.

To me, its not just a matter of losing to rainbows, its a matter about playing the same boring game, and again, and again, and again, with a eventual interesting fight. If you care just about winning, I have a suggestion: you can play AI2. These you will "have a good chance of beating", too.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: inthisroom on July 08, 2011, 03:38:17 pm
Even though I'm not necessarily in line with Bucky's comparisons, I totally agree that things should stay the way they are.
Most people who complain about Cards being op and wanting restrictions seem to be the ones losing against the higher leagues, but these are indeed not there to be beaten easily or with unupped beginner decks, Platinum decks are meant to be close to unbeatable to newbies (as are FG's)

No experienced player seems to have problems with these decks or the (lack of) deck variety you face in the Platinum league.

I find it has always been like that, even with the old t50, there have always been "decks of the moment", at some point, all you faced was Rol/Hope, another time GotP/Nightmare, then you felt like all you faced was Fire Stalls or I've GotP time...so now it's Rainbow decks... where's the problem?

As Bucky said, if you can't beat them, play a lower league.

My system to avoid being bored: I play one match in each league, Bronze to Platinum, then I start over, trying to get the extra-spin in every league, this way, I play a great variety of decks and every league is actually interesting.

So no limits, no restrictions, I like the Arena the way it is.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: parasite99 on July 08, 2011, 04:10:28 pm
Even though I'm not necessarily in line with Bucky's comparisons, I totally agree that things should stay the way they are.
Most people who complain about Cards being op and wanting restrictions seem to be the ones losing against the higher leagues, but these are indeed not there to be beaten easily or with unupped beginner decks, Platinum decks are meant to be close to unbeatable to newbies (as are FG's)

No experienced player seems to have problems with these decks or the (lack of) deck variety you face in the Platinum league.

I find it has always been like that, even with the old t50, there have always been "decks of the moment", at some point, all you faced was Rol/Hope, another time GotP/Nightmare, then you felt like all you faced was Fire Stalls or I've GotP time...so now it's Rainbow decks... where's the problem?

As Bucky said, if you can't beat them, play a lower league.

My system to avoid being bored: I play one match in each league, Bronze to Platinum, then I start over, trying to get the extra-spin in every league, this way, I play a great variety of decks and every league is actually interesting.

So no limits, no restrictions, I like the Arena the way it is.
First of all, do you think you are more experienced than members who suggested changes? I don't think so.
You probably didn't understand that some people want to make Arena more interesting. And that goes for deck-builders and also players facing the decks. It isn't fun facing a 500hp deckout-deck or almost the same (rainbow) decks over and over again. It's also not fun having the same rainbow or stall deck and just put whatever 5 cards in it.
IT IS NOT FUN NOR FOR THE GUY BUILDING THE DECK NOR FOR PLAYERS FACING IT.

This is a game and as a game it must be fun above all.
I really support excluding SoGs (it's absurd having 12 sancts and 12 sogs in a deck) and a system like majofa suggested or something similar which will force people to be more creative. Bronze and Silver could have less restrictions so that newer players can still build some decks and submit it with their limited cards.

Even if Arena means prestige for many people I would love to see new ideas there, new card combinations etc. Ideas you can carry on for making your FG or PvP decks. And also I dont think Arena gets you so much money after all from the deck you submitted - in whatever category you are (ok it gives more to plat, but people there don't really care about 200-300 electrum).
So why not make a duo strong deck you just figured out with the card given instead of submitting the same old stalls and rainbows with that card stuck in?

Have fun  :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Sevs on July 08, 2011, 04:14:44 pm
Quote
Why dont you stop crying?
Don't flame.

hahahahahahahaha from the person who called us all Hitler.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 08, 2011, 04:51:55 pm
Restricting cards does not allow for more creativity.

Quote
You probably didn't understand that some people want to make Arena more interesting. And that goes for deck-builders and also players facing the decks.
This has nothing to do with deck builders.  If you have all the cards, then you can be as creative as you possibly can.  Restricting what cards you can use limits how creative you can get.  This is FACT not opinion.  There is no reason why the people (deck builders) can't just limit themselves personally.  Let everyone do their own thing.  If you want limits, then limit yourself daily, change up your deck based on your oracle card.  Only use the element of the card and the 2 adjacent elements on the wheel, and nothing else.  There, now deck builders have a way to limit themselves, lets see how creative they can be. 

Quote
hahahahahahahaha from the person who called us all Hitler.
Do take the time to carefully read each post before replying.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Rainchild on July 08, 2011, 05:32:20 pm
Well, I tried to do a diferent deck in Gold league.
Lasted for 4 games, and dropped out.

I had Sky Blitz as the Oracle-card. Any ideas how to make a deck with 5 of those?
AI doesn't seem to know how to use it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Rember on July 08, 2011, 05:36:12 pm
Well, I tried to do a diferent deck in Gold league.
Lasted for 4 games, and dropped out.

I had Sky Blitz as the Oracle-card. Any ideas how to make a deck with 5 of those?
AI doesn't seem to know how to use it.
Well it looks like the majority of voters don't want to see Quantum Towers and Supernovas banned, so it's safe to use those.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Calindu on July 08, 2011, 05:39:29 pm
Well, I tried to do a diferent deck in Gold league.
Lasted for 4 games, and dropped out.

I had Sky Blitz as the Oracle-card. Any ideas how to make a deck with 5 of those?
AI doesn't seem to know how to use it.
(http://www.blog-n8.fr/wp-content/gallery/et-si-steve-jobs-avait-presente-le-n8/philoraptor-is-obvious-troll-obvious.jpg)

Excellent place to ask
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Rainchild on July 08, 2011, 06:03:18 pm
OK, nothing, I'll ask somewhere else.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 08, 2011, 07:27:51 pm
If you have all the cards, then you can be as creative as you possibly can.  Restricting what cards you can use limits how creative you can get.  This is FACT not opinion.
Sure, I bet all those people submitting the same rainbow are all being 100% creative. And this is FACT, right?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Jenkar on July 08, 2011, 07:33:22 pm
Stupid comment from an artist. Restriction is what makes creativity in art. Say you can do everything you want, and you end up drowning in the universe of possibilities. And doing the same as others.
Why would it be different in deckbuilding?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 08, 2011, 07:56:06 pm
Quote
Sure, I bet all those people submitting the same rainbow are all being 100% creative. And this is FACT, right?
yes, yes they are.  maybe in their minds they are being creative.  not everyone uses the forum or elements chat or even kong chat, they simply play the game.  there are a lot of people that play that you will never ever talk to.  if they submit a rainbow deck everyday then one day they find out they cant, i bet they will be disappointed.  also, not all the rainbow decks are the same, majority are different in some way, so each deck will offer a different challenge of some sort.

Quote
Restriction is what makes creativity in art.
that is funny, i thought creativity came from inspiration.  if youre an artist with limited supplies of what ever medium you use, then yes, you have to be creative with your supplies, but the arts creativity spawns from some inspiration.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 08, 2011, 08:31:40 pm
yes, yes they are.  maybe in their minds they are being creative.  not everyone uses the forum or elements chat or even kong chat, they simply play the game.  there are a lot of people that play that you will never ever talk to.  if they submit a rainbow deck everyday then one day they find out they cant, i bet they will be disappointed.  also, not all the rainbow decks are the same, majority are different in some way, so each deck will offer a different challenge of some sort.
Not true  -.- . It was obvious that rainbow decks in platinum are too common. Most mono or duo deck are found in the lower league, like bronze since many of the deckbuilder have limited selection of cards. Once you have every card its easy to realize that making a rainbow deck gives you a higher winning rate since a mono deck obviously had weaknesses that a single element can't cover (e.g. some element lack permanent control). Rainbow decks allow you not to consider the card that the oracle gives since a few dead draws won't make much difference.

Quote
that is funny, i thought creativity came from inspiration.  if youre an artist with limited supplies of what ever medium you use, then yes, you have to be creative with your supplies, but the arts creativity spawns from some inspiration.
 :)) thats so off-topic. How does art creativity had anything to do with supernova, QT or SoG?Hmm...

After a 50 or so platinum arena battles that in this current state, everyone will get sick seeing another SoGs, QTs, and supernovas spam.

Quote
Do take the time to carefully read each post before replying.
 :)) so which post have anything to do with Hitler?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Sevs on July 08, 2011, 08:52:09 pm
Quote
Sure, I bet all those people submitting the same rainbow are all being 100% creative. And this is FACT, right?
yes, yes they are.  maybe in their minds they are being creative.  not everyone uses the forum or elements chat or even kong chat, they simply play the game.  there are a lot of people that play that you will never ever talk to.  if they submit a rainbow deck everyday then one day they find out they cant, i bet they will be disappointed.  also, not all the rainbow decks are the same, majority are different in some way, so each deck will offer a different challenge of some sort.

Quote
Restriction is what makes creativity in art.
that is funny, i thought creativity came from inspiration.  if youre an artist with limited supplies of what ever medium you use, then yes, you have to be creative with your supplies, but the arts creativity spawns from some inspiration.
I find it funny that you are argueing for SoG's and not banning anything saying it brings more creativity, when your deck consists of 6 Sancs, 6 SoG's, miracles and uses your oracle card as a dead card. and you have used that setup before. You even took down your creative deck because it was not doing that well. This just proves that you need to ban certain cards to shift the balance towards more creative decks
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 08, 2011, 09:05:05 pm
my decks not a rainbow, which is what this is all about.  quantum is bored of playing against rainbow decks in the arena so he started this thread.

Quote
You even took down your creative deck because it was not doing that well.
i did not resort to a rainbow deck like all the nubs.  and like everyone else, i want my deck to do well so it makes me money.  and that is what the arena is supposed to be about, not who can create the most unique deck.  we have weekly tourneys with actual rewards that have restrictions all the time.  if you want to be creative, thats where you want to do it at.

so far, no valid reason has been given as to why these cards should be banned.

1) bored of seeing rainbow decks - invalid
2) people want deckbuilders to be creative - invalid
3) too hard due to an inadequate deck and/or library - invalid

so aside from these 3 things, which is no reason at all to ban cards, can anyone think up a valid reason for doing this?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 08, 2011, 09:22:54 pm
1) bored of seeing rainbow decks - invalid
2) people want deckbuilders to be creative - invalid
3) too hard due to an inadequate deck and/or library - invalid
They look valid to me. Explain why are those reasons invalid.

Quote
I find it funny that you are argueing for SoG's and not banning anything saying it brings more creativity, when your deck consists of 6 Sancs, 6 SoG's, miracles and uses your oracle card as a dead card.
Hypocrite?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Sevs on July 08, 2011, 09:39:01 pm
personally i do not support the banning of rainbows, although doing so would absolutely inspire creativity.

I am however for banning shards. You can throw 6 of them into just about any deck and increase the winrate drastically.

1) of course that isnt a reason
2) how is that invalid? you yourself have proven that having shards available make deck uncreative.
3) no one here is really complaining that decks are too hard. platinum is meant to be a challenge. however a challenge doesnt have to mean uncreative.

The point of having to use the oracle card is to make each deck different and unique. Having oraclebow and decks like yours, bucky, are effective yes, but completely against the point of Arena.

And then by coming to this thread and acting that like you are some omniscient being is rather annoying. Your arrogance is actually really becoming offensive which only gets worse when you tell others to stop flaming after you comment that those in support are acting like Hitler.

Quote
i did not resort to a rainbow deck like all the nubs.
But you did resort to a deck that you can plug in any card and still work, which doesn't make you any better.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Jenkar on July 08, 2011, 09:42:33 pm
I might want to add that creativity was the reason ZANZARINO created the arena.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Zuphix on July 09, 2011, 12:22:52 am
The cards are the cards, as they are. If you think they need to be banned freom the arena, think if they need to be nerfed alltogether.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manipul8r on July 09, 2011, 01:52:59 am
If there is a problem with rainbow decks being unbeatable even with 5 cards being picked by the Oracle, I think it would be a problem with the game's balance itself.  However, in my opinion, it's more likely just because they have all the Arena bonuses like every other deck in Gold/Plat.

Although I'm only in Silver league (level 33 right now), I have never used a rainbow deck for my Arena deck, and I've always had at least a 2:1 win to loss ratio or better.  Maybe it's just luck, I don't know, but I enjoy making my own decks and don't care if people log on regularly just for the purpose of rebuilding the same deck with 5 different cards.  The fact they aren't really enjoying a major part of the game and that they will sometimes have dead or near-dead cards in their deck is their loss, not mine.

Check out the thread about SoG needing to be nerfed for example.  I agree it needs to be nerfed, but I don't think it needs to be banned from a single part of the game.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 09, 2011, 02:49:53 am
I might want to add that creativity was the reason ZANZARINO created the arena.
quote please?

Honestly, this whole debate seems pointless to me. person x wants more creativity. Everyone must bend to person x's will and be creative. Just like everyone else.

 If you restrict rainbows, then all that will happen is all the pulverizer decks will look the same, all the Photon decks will look the same ect ect ect. Eiither that or platinum will become less worthy because instead of throwing in rainbows that can hold up a fight if a monkey builds them, people will try to make good non rainbow decks, however they wont test them, so they will be weak and platinum league will end up being boring.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Essence on July 09, 2011, 02:52:08 am
BluePriest is 100% correct. 
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 09, 2011, 04:28:54 am
+1 blue
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: DrunkDestroyer on July 09, 2011, 08:38:32 am
The problem is that I have used every single one of these in a decent deck, which doesn't suck.

Of course, after playing against about a billion 60 card timebows or supernova rushes - with cards like UG, Mind flayer, which could make fun decks, I just cringe.
Desperate measures are okay. Just do this.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 09, 2011, 09:04:58 am
Honestly, this whole debate seems pointless to me. person x wants more creativity. Everyone must bend to person x's will and be creative. Just like everyone else.
Look at who started the "pointless" thing:

+1 blue
This is from someone who started a pointless off-topic debate about Hitler and art creativity. Fail, seriously.

The cards are the cards, as they are. If you think they need to be banned freom the arena, think if they need to be nerfed alltogether.
Correct. Me personally feels supernovas and SoGs need nerfing. Supernovas are kinda OP when the arena deck draws more than one cards.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 09, 2011, 10:22:14 am
I'm in top 10 in plat. My deck run 0 Sn and 0 QT (0BH and grav nymph too)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Jenkar on July 09, 2011, 10:26:16 am
I'm in top 10 in plat. My deck run 0 Sn and 0 QT (0BH and grav nymph too)
The problem is not in the difficulty of rainbows, but in their number :3
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 09, 2011, 10:34:37 am
In this point I totally agree with you.

But I hope this is just due to the fact that it is the begining of the arena and then player will open their mind a little a try to build something that a 70 cards speedbow or a 120 cards timelamebow.. I run a duo deck and I'm in top 10 so that is a proof it is not needed to play a lamebow to success.

Maybe should we allow an help to player who try to build original/creative deck ? I mean the deck helper can help to build something else than a bow. I hope this will be a good way to see some news things in arena and then give more fun to all !
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 09, 2011, 12:08:58 pm
If you restrict rainbows, then all that will happen is all the pulverizer decks will look the same, all the Photon decks will look the same ect ect ect. Eiither that or platinum will become less worthy because instead of throwing in rainbows that can hold up a fight if a monkey builds them, people will try to make good non rainbow decks, however they wont test them, so they will be weak and platinum league will end up being boring.
Oh, yeah, I forgot this. Platinum league people are stupid and unable to test their own non-rainbow decks. They need a monkey built rainbow deck for sure. Good to know. Even more because I know Im also stupid and unable to test my deck. +1 blue.
Since I am quite sure this is sarcasm... There are 500+ people in platinum. Im sure quite a few of them will test their deck. I'm also sure quite a few of them won't. I don't test any of my decks. All I do is think of a non rainbow concept, and put it together. No testing at all. I use the arena as my testing ground.

I'm in top 10 in plat. My deck run 0 Sn and 0 QT (0BH and grav nymph too)
The problem is not in the difficulty of rainbows, but in their number :3
The problem will probably become the difficulty (or lack thereof) if these cards are restricted.

Maybe should we allow an help to player who try to build original/creative deck ? I mean the deck helper can help to build something else than a bow. I hope this will be a good way to see some news things in arena and then give more fun to all !
The thing is, how many good decks can you build that have 5 pulverizers? Sure, people want a creative deck. That is probably their 2nd priority. The first one being win rate. So all pulverizers decks will end up looking the same. Sure there will be more variety as far as deck type. But everyone of a specific card will have essentially the same deck still.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 09, 2011, 02:22:52 pm
I think that 5 pulvy isn't a good example I'm quite sure a boring deck with pulvy + BH + amber nymph + shrieker + momentum can have a quite good win rate. But yeah I understand what you mean.. However the deck I used for fun is (or was cuz i had another loose yet in top 10 and I never thought that it will win anything.

What i'm trying to say is that some deck (originial obv) can be suprisingly good maybe because they are original.. So I think that every one must try original deck.

Otherwise I thought it : maybe using a shard (not yellow) should cost skill point ?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 09, 2011, 03:07:13 pm
If you restrict rainbows, then all that will happen is all the pulverizer decks will look the same, all the Photon decks will look the same ect ect ect. Eiither that or platinum will become less worthy because instead of throwing in rainbows that can hold up a fight if a monkey builds them, people will try to make good non rainbow decks, however they wont test them, so they will be weak and platinum league will end up being boring.
Oh, yeah, I forgot this. Platinum league people are stupid and unable to test their own non-rainbow decks. They need a monkey built rainbow deck for sure. Good to know. Even more because I know Im also stupid and unable to test my deck. +1 blue.
Since I am quite sure this is sarcasm... There are 500+ people in platinum. Im sure quite a few of them will test their deck. I'm also sure quite a few of them won't. I don't test any of my decks. All I do is think of a non rainbow concept, and put it together. No testing at all. I use the arena as my testing ground.
Yeah, Im sorry, I really was in sarcastic mood earlier today, and I will try to avoid it. About the topic, I always test my deck. I understand some people dont do it, but even if the deck is a little crappy, it should be dangerous with all those FG advantages. And if we want estimulate players to take it more seriously, increasing / spreading rewards could be of great help. I have suggested something about this here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28398.0.html).

Anyway, people that dont test their decks should usually get less rewards or being eliminated. I think its just a matter of time Platinum has more than 500 decks, so it will start to eliminate the easier ones.

Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 10, 2011, 12:23:12 am
I truely believe banning certain cards will do more harm than good. I havent seen a reason to think otherwise. Instead of outright banning cards, a better idea would be to use peer pressure to make people use more original decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 10, 2011, 12:38:17 am
I truely believe banning certain cards will do more harm than good. I havent seen a reason to think otherwise. Instead of outright banning cards, a better idea would be to use peer pressure to make people use more original decks.
I'd say peer pressure would not work because not every elements player read the forum or whatsoever.  While nerfing some OP card like SoG might be a better idea in the long run since that card is tempting not to be put on another ~bow deck because of its flexibility, in the mean time, I personally didn't see how banning SoG will be harmful, as in my humble opinion they are there to help people "farm" and not to be dumped inside another "made your own FG" deck.

I can see how you came into your conclusion though and I think that's another way to look at it. I also think banning QT might do more harm than good.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: parasite99 on July 10, 2011, 12:42:31 am
I think if SoGs were made Life cards (as Zanzarino was thinking to do) and a system like majofa suggested would exist, everything would be more balanced and work better.
If you had 3-4-5 elements to make your deck from (by oracle spin), then not everyone would use the same decks over and over again by just adding the 5 oracle cards in it and not many 12 SoGs 12 Sanctuaries decks would exist.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 10, 2011, 03:26:57 am
I think if SoGs were made Life cards (as Zanzarino was thinking to do) and a system like majofa suggested would exist, everything would be more balanced and work better.
If you had 3-4-5 elements to make your deck from (by oracle spin), then not everyone would use the same decks over and over again by just adding the 5 oracle cards in it and not many 12 SoGs 12 Sanctuaries decks would exist.
SoGs = Life cards? Life already has enough healing, as well as the only other card with the ability regenerate. SoGs would make Life one of the most overpowered elements in the game.

In other news, good mono arena decks can be made. For instance, I got an Amber Nymph from the Oracle, so I threw together a mono gravity deck (have fun fighting it ;) ).

And if Platinum is made up mostly of the same rainbow decks, then shouldn't making a counter be easy? If we could all use an effective counter, it would discourage players from putting up rainbows.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: parasite99 on July 10, 2011, 06:24:42 am
So Hitler was not a metaphor? Wait...now I am confused  ???

Joking ofc  ;D
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 10, 2011, 06:56:01 am
Sure with a voodoo deck 12 sanc and 12 SoG aren't a matter at all :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 10, 2011, 07:36:28 am
hitler was not a hidden metaphor, was blatantly obvious :P
ralouf, lol, i might make a deck like that but i havent seen any in the arena yet
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 10, 2011, 07:56:48 am
I meant that you can use it to farm the league (I tried it it works not bad at all in fact ^^)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 10, 2011, 08:09:17 am
Quote
if you haven't read the entire thing, don't interject pointless comments when you obviously have no clue.
You are calling I obviously have no clue. That's flaming.

Quote
if you disagree with me you are not stupid, but if you say something stupid, i will most certainly let you know, and by not reading what i write, and then posting a reply that is totally off base, that does make you stupid
In other words, I look stupid since I post what you consider off base. By saying I look stupid, you are flaming.

Lets go to your "spark" post again shall we?
Quote
Let's all stop acting like hitler and discontinue this topic.
You are saying everyone(all) acting like hitler. That's another flaming.

Quote
this makes no sense.  banning cards limits creativity.  think before you speak.
In other words you are calling people brainless since they speak without thinking. Another flaming.

Don't you still not realizing where the problem is? I'm not against your argument about banning cards or whatsoever, I think everyone is free to voice your opinion. Nothing to do with metaphor, its basic English.

One piece of advice: Try to give people some respect. Peace.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 10, 2011, 08:37:32 am
Quote
its basic English
lmao
reread your post, then fix all your errors before telling me about basic english
lmao
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Malignant on July 10, 2011, 08:46:13 am
(http://i.imgur.com/xblF4.gif)

I had to do it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 10, 2011, 08:57:50 am
@Malignant: I loled.

We need a moderator in here. This discussion is getting out of hand.

The sooner we get this wrapped up, the sooner we can get back to playing children's card games on the Internet.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Sevs on July 10, 2011, 09:14:42 am
The arena is balanced.  The only problem is the people thinking there is a problem with the arena.  I can beat someone with 12 sogs and 12 sancs, so anyone can.  There is no point in complaining about the arena if you suck at making a deck that works. actually i am pretty consistantly in the top 20 so thank you and flaming isnt really a good thing to do

Quote
Quote
    I find it funny that you are argueing for SoG's and not banning anything saying it brings more creativity, when your deck consists of 6 Sancs, 6 SoG's, miracles and uses your oracle card as a dead card.
You are saying something and doing the opposite thing. I find it hard to believe that your are saying what you actually thinks, tbh, this is the kind of stuff that makes you look stupid.
I am not doing the opposite.  I am saying do not ban any cards.  I use what ever cards I want, because that is how the arena is.  This thread started because of rainbow decks btw, so if you haven't read the entire thing, don't interject pointless comments when you obviously have no clue.  I do make decks daily, so who is not being creative? 

OPPOSITE - 3.  totally different: different from or contrary to something or each other in every respect 
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Saying I don't want sogs banned and using them is not opposite.  Thanks, nice try to the both of you.  Read a dictionary once in a while.

i love how you jump to your conclusion before reading anything written(kind of hypocritical). once again flaming. I specifically said that you are fighting for not banning all these cards saying "that banning them would reduce creativity". I pointed out that i find it ironic that you say those cards allow for creativity yet you use them in the most uncreative deck. And i find it slightly offensive that you are inconsiderate enough to state both of us should read a dictionary yet not once have I said something that is actually related in that post.

Quote
So people who disagrees with you are Hitler and stupid.
Yet another misinterpretation.  If you are just going to make up your own words instead of reading what is written then don't post any more.
1) people that want to control how others are allowed to make decks make them act like a dictator, hitler was a dictator, not a hard concept to understand
2) if you disagree with me you are not stupid, but if you say something stupid, i will most certainly let you know, and by not reading what i write, and then posting a reply that is totally off base, that does make you stupid
idk who wrote this quote nor do i care. but it is seriously offensive to just throw out names like hitler and to compare people to him is not exactly the smartest thing. My grandpa died in a concentration camp. I would appreciate if you weren't so damn inconsiderate.

Quote
It was obvious you were sparking something here with your attitude, and by saying "discontinue" this topic you are not respecting the topic creator and everyone who agreed with the idea.
I don't control how other people reply.  So don't ever say I was starting something, you'll know when I do. 
everything was peaceful till you came and acted like you were better than the rest of us. arrogant as hell. you didnt bother to read any of the other posts to really consider anyone elses ideas or motives in their responses. I find that hypocritical as well from your capital outburst below.

READ THE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST, AND MAKE SURE YOU DONT INTERPRET THINGS, THIS IS NOT ENGLISH CLASS, THERE ARE NO HIDDEN METAPHORS, EVERYTHING SHOULD BE TAKEN HOW THEY ARE!!!
It is really obnoxious to use size 36 font and it is honestly a joke when you cant even follow your own  :electrum refer to the previous 2 responses where you didnt read the whole post so you came to some blatantly wrong conclusion.
Honestly this flaming is ridiculous and I personally don't appreciate it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 10, 2011, 09:29:46 am
I'm the only one who is bored ? this discussion went so far I think. (@selvaria : people who speak without are not brainless but are very similar to brainless people because the don't use their brain).

Anyway I don't care about your f**kin' flaming and I totally don't care about hitler and I don't see why he is in the arena section so pliz stop this children's discussion and come back to the subject of the topic (you sould change the tittle btw).

WE NEED TO FIND SOMETHING TO FORCE CREATIVITY IN ARENA. maybe ban, maybe something else (I like majofa idea too)

Discuss but pliz stop your useless discussion or use PM.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 10, 2011, 09:41:15 am
Quote
WE NEED TO FIND SOMETHING TO FORCE CREATIVITY IN ARENA.
Which means you are hitler according to someone's definition. Try to read some post back and see how the argument starts. That was what everyone were trying to do before someone shows up and starting to call everyone hitler for doing that.

Quote
its basic English
lmao
reread your post, then fix all your errors before telling me about basic english
lmao
Yet another flaming, now about my English skills. So what if its not my first language?

I apologize to everyone who are unhappy about the silly arguments. My bad.

--------------------------------------
I had to do it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Jappert on July 10, 2011, 09:43:41 am
Let's keep this civilised and return to the original topic. Please stay on topic from now on.

I don't think banning any card is a good idea, I do however reallly like Majofa's suggestion since it would force people to think outside of the box.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 10, 2011, 09:55:04 am
Why can't we just leave the arena how it is, and stop even talking about trying to change it?  T50 had the same problem, but now all of a sudden, arena has to be changed to make things easier for people, to entertain them more, I don't think so.  Grinding I find boring no matter what game I play, and if you sit there playing 100+ matches in a row, maybe it is not the other decks that are boring you, maybe it is because what you are doing is monotonous.  If you find the arena hard, play something easier.  If you find it boring, take a break from elements.

Remember, the arena is not meant to entertain you for hours on end, and I really don't recommend playing elements for hours upon hours in a row.  If you only play a few games and are bored of playing against certain decks in the arena, maybe it's you that is the problem. 

Possible solution
&NR=1
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 10, 2011, 11:01:19 am
10 pages of off-topic arguments aside, let's get back to the main point. I'm just going to address the community's opinion on these topics.

Over two-thirds of voters are in favour of majofa's idea, myself included. It will bring about some creativity, while not eliminating rainbows altogether.

Almost two-thirds of voters are against Quantum Towers and Supernovas being banned. Banning cards altogether is certainly a bit extreme, and I'm somewhat uncertain on this one.

Now looking at which cards should be banned: Shard of Gratitude has the most votes, followed by the option of banning nothing. 60 healing per turn is no small thing, and as rainbows generally have heavy PC as well, Pulverizer is rendered almost useless. I am personally for banning SoGs, if not all shards.

It seems that the community wants majofa's idea implemented in some form, and the banning of SoGs should be looked into as well.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 10, 2011, 11:06:46 am
For SoG I have an idea : we can use skill points to be allowed to use SoG ?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Tiko on July 10, 2011, 11:18:41 am
The only problem I see with majofa's idea:

Example:
The oracle shows you a Steam Machine.
:life Life, :time Time, and :gravity Gravity lightens up (random) on the wheel.

So this way you are forced to make a Steam deck, possibly with a multiplied fire mark, and besides that you have 3 other elements that you use; and they may have close to no good use to you at all.

Of course, with the example above, you sure will make one creative deck, but most often than not your deck will drop out quickly from the league in subject; because others got lucky, and maybe spun some natural synergies that day.

Besides this it's a nice idea, though I doubt the Oracle is programmed to make any coherency between the things he would show.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 10, 2011, 11:26:33 am
60 healing?  3 flying adrenalined staffs anyone?  60 healing is no big deal, especially since i have never played against an arena deck that has been able to get all 12 out.  We have weekly tournaments with more than enough restrictions to satisfy all your banning needs.  No restrictions = fun for all, and I mean this too, because there are 2000+ decks in all 4 arena categories that you can play against, yet we don't have anything close to that number in votes.  so the elements forum community should not dictate how all the non forum people should play the game.  I'm sure quite a few would join the forum after such a drastic change wondering why they can't play with certain cards any more.  There is just not enough people involved in the voting to make this kind of change happen ever.  It's around 110 people voting each time, so 110/2000 is not enough and until there is at least 50% of the people playing elements involved, any change should not happen.  It would not be fair to those that do not use the forum.

-edit-
ferox, firequeen, both use feral bonds, and both can get a full field of creatures.  both have 12 feral bonds, and with 23 creatures in play that is a crap load of healing (276 hp/turn), so why havent these fgs been nerfed?  thats too much healing, boohoo, no, just no.  sogs are fine.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 10, 2011, 11:30:51 am
The only problem I see with majofa's idea:

Example:
The oracle shows you a Steam Machine.
:life Life, :time Time, and :gravity Gravity lightens up (random) on the wheel.

So this way you are forced to make a Steam deck, possibly with a multiplied fire mark, and besides that you have 3 other elements that you use; and they may have close to no good use to you at all.

Of course, with the example above, you sure will make one creative deck, but most often than not your deck will drop out quickly from the league in subject; because others got lucky, and maybe spun some natural synergies that day.

Besides this it's a nice idea, though I doubt the Oracle is programmed to make any coherency between the things he would show.
However luck already played a huge part even before that idea got implemented. Someone might get QT or gravity nymph while I'm having Chimera. It will still be a good, if not temporary solution I think.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: whitevo on July 10, 2011, 11:34:09 am
umm i got idea, let oracle choose you 3 different card?
this way you will get 15 unmoveable cards.
You can still make it over to rainbow deck, but is it worth it?

and idk if you want it push it into extreme u can limit arena decks to max size 35 (then u will have only 20 new cards avaible to add including that 10 of them usually is pillars)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Tiko on July 10, 2011, 11:39:52 am
However luck already played a huge part even before that idea got implemented. Someone might get QT or gravity nymph while I'm having Chimera. It will still be a good, if not temporary solution I think.
Luck is always a factor in a game like this. Still, I did not get either QTs, nymphs, golems and such since Arena was introduced, and right now I'm still 3rd at Plat league with some lowly ice bolts (without any healing). It's just what you make of it, I believe.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 10, 2011, 12:08:14 pm
Thank God Zanz has already said that he ignores polls. Although QuantumT's reasoning wasnt because of the difficulty, im guessing at least half of the people who voted used that as the reasoning. People need to stop complaining when people do stuff they dont like (ie not make creative enough decks). What grade are we in again?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 10, 2011, 12:13:36 pm
The only problem I see with majofa's idea:

Example:
The oracle shows you a Steam Machine.
:life Life, :time Time, and :gravity Gravity lightens up (random) on the wheel.

So this way you are forced to make a Steam deck, possibly with a multiplied fire mark, and besides that you have 3 other elements that you use; and they may have close to no good use to you at all.

Of course, with the example above, you sure will make one creative deck, but most often than not your deck will drop out quickly from the league in subject; because others got lucky, and maybe spun some natural synergies that day.

Besides this it's a nice idea, though I doubt the Oracle is programmed to make any coherency between the things he would show.
For Steam Machine, multiplied Fire Mark and/or pendulums will solve it. And you don't have to use all the elements the Oracle lights up, you're just restricted to those ones.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 10, 2011, 12:14:59 pm
youre forgetting that water didnt light up on the wheel. Have fun playing your steam machine.
stupid comment is stupid.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 10, 2011, 12:23:15 pm
I enjoy making decks with 6 sogs and 6 sancs now, can't wait til the oracle gives me a life card, then I will use feral bonds and mitosis and ray of lights and sogs and sanctuaries and miracles and sods and a couple hopes for defense.  That would be fun.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Hodari on July 10, 2011, 02:43:16 pm
umm i got idea, let oracle choose you 3 different card?
this way you will get 15 unmoveable cards.
Yeah you'd be able to get real creative with nearly half of your deck already determined by the oracle and likely most of the rest being taken up by pillars/towers :)

Seriously though, if there are too many rainbows out there, just play anti-rainbow decks or even post strong anti-rainbow decks on the forums so more people start using them against arena.  Rainbow decks will lose more and either people will switch or their decks will get pushed out quickly by the ones that do.

Not to mention that yes, people CAN just throw together a rainbow and add in whatever cards the oracle gives, even as dead cards..but for a deck to be really effective, ideally ALL of the cards should work together well.  A deck with 5 dead cards in it won't be as strong and while it might survive in the top 500, it's unlikely to do nearly as well as one that is properly designed.  Maybe better rewards for the top decks would help.

Things are already set up to encourage a certain amount of creativity though, and if people STILL don't want to, it's unlikely that any amount of rules or banned cards will really change this.  Ban rainbows and they'll just move to the next most effective type of deck(and there will ALWAYS be something that is slightly more effective than others).  Eliminate rainbows and it could be as simple as just making a duo out of whatever the oracle gives you + fractal + best creatures from that element + any special quanta generators etc.  In any case, they will find some way to make a generic deck if they really want to.

On the other hand, for those who DO want to be creative, there are already plenty of options to do so.  As an example, a couple days ago, I spun Charger as my oracle card..should be able to make something good out of that right?  except that I quickly realized I had no gravity towers whatsoever.  Rather than just skipping that day or going with the "lol just throw it in a rainbow" approach though, I thought about it a bit, remmebered I did have some earth pendula upgraded, and put together a duo.  That deck is currently at a record of 32-1(the one loss so far coming immediately after I submitted it and while I was still testing it myself..I made a couple minor changes and it hasn't lost since)

As for SoGs, if they're that much of a problem for you, there is a simple solution:  Use some permanent control.  Not too hard to figure that one out.  And if people start using a lot of protect artifacts to prevent that..well if they have 12 SoG and 12 PA(and probably 12 sancs as well), that's a LOT of cards in there deck used up by that which can't be used to kill you..so then you can either try to outrush them and kill before they get all their healing in play or just try to outlast them and go for deckout.  At most, maybe some of these cards should be restricted so you can only use a certain number in a deck, but outright banning them is definitely overkill.  Even restricting cards should only be done in cases where there is no effective counter available(or at least where the only counters that do exist are very limited or only available to one or 2 elements). 

Lastly, the flaming on here(from both sides) needs to stop or else I would say one of the mods needs to just lock this thread.  If you can't make an intelligent rational argument for your point of view without resorting to name-calling, comparing people to Hitler, or typing in all caps and 40 point font..chances are pretty good you've already lost the argument at that point and should just find something better to do with your time.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 10, 2011, 04:43:56 pm
People will continue to use rainbows if they are successful. If they stop being successful, people will stop using them. Instead of banning them, why dont we use peer pressure (ie annialate all the good decks with rainbow counters) so they will stop being used?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: pervepic on July 10, 2011, 05:08:29 pm
I couldn't express my thoughts better than Hodari just did :) . You can't force people to be creative.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: petersenk on July 10, 2011, 06:07:40 pm
Why are you guys even complaining about rainbows (okok rainbow-denial is really evil)? Every second deck is a friggin fire/earth rush (thanks god there are SOGs).

Stupid fire golem's.  :|
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Rastafla on July 10, 2011, 06:20:12 pm
Well i keep EMing rainbows in gold with my monogravity (3 nymphs) so just you all keep on using them.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Rubik87 on July 10, 2011, 07:55:59 pm
I disagree with "rainbows are effective", and I disagree with banning supernovas and QTs.

I agree with the point made by someone else in another thread that people submit rainbows because that's what they have upgraded.

Of course it's hard to make a good deck if the oracle gives you a 'brick' (actually 5 bricks), so maybe then a rainbow could be the less worse.

I have no idea why people would consider SoGs to be annoying, it's really just 5 healing, can't you outdamage that? or simply pulv them away?

If there is a card that perhaps we should consider restricting maybe it is explosion. That's the card i'm looking to put in the deck i submit if i can.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: jmizzle7 on July 10, 2011, 08:49:41 pm
 Global Moderator Comment Any more off-topic banter, flaming, name-calling, trolling, etc. will be grounds for a 24-hour ban. First and only warning.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manipul8r on July 10, 2011, 11:10:03 pm
I disagree with "rainbows are effective", and I disagree with banning supernovas and QTs.

I agree with the point made by someone else in another thread that people submit rainbows because that's what they have upgraded.

Of course it's hard to make a good deck if the oracle gives you a 'brick' (actually 5 bricks), so maybe then a rainbow could be the less worse.

I have no idea why people would consider SoGs to be annoying, it's really just 5 healing, can't you outdamage that? or simply pulv them away?

If there is a card that perhaps we should consider restricting maybe it is explosion. That's the card i'm looking to put in the deck i submit if i can.
I agree with you for the most part, especially when you can have 12 explosions.  However, the problem (in my opinion) with SoG is not the simple 5 healing per turn, but the fact you can have 12 of them + other healing cards like Sanctuary and on top of that CC/PC like Antimatter/Deflag.  This shuts down most strategies except maybe quinted growth, but you can use a protected Thorn Carapace to stop that.  I still don't believe SoG should be banned, but I feel this represents a problem with game balance, but that's done elsewhere.

@Rastafla, not everyone has Gravity Nymphs.   :(
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 11, 2011, 01:34:56 am
Voted NO.  Why you ask, and you did say to explain.  EVERYTHING IS JUST FINE THE WAY IT IS.  If you haven't noticed by your previous polls, majority of people do not want any change at all.  So quit QQ'ing about the way the arena is and suck it up and play the way it is.

This IS NOT supposed to be super easy so everyone can make 50k electrum a day.  Give it up already, majority rules, and that means no change.  I request a topic lock please, because you cannot fix what is not broken.
This said when the poll had like, hmmm, 60 votes?

60 healing?  3 flying adrenalined staffs anyone?  60 healing is no big deal, especially since i have never played against an arena deck that has been able to get all 12 out.  We have weekly tournaments with more than enough restrictions to satisfy all your banning needs.  No restrictions = fun for all, and I mean this too, because there are 2000+ decks in all 4 arena categories that you can play against, yet we don't have anything close to that number in votes.  so the elements forum community should not dictate how all the non forum people should play the game.  I'm sure quite a few would join the forum after such a drastic change wondering why they can't play with certain cards any more.  There is just not enough people involved in the voting to make this kind of change happen ever.  It's around 110 people voting each time, so 110/2000 is not enough and until there is at least 50% of the people playing elements involved, any change should not happen.  It would not be fair to those that do not use the forum.
And this said when poll had, according to him, 110 votes. Tsc, tsc, tsc. And still feels confortable to say to others "read the thread before posting". Some people just dont know what themselves posted, huh? Or maybe ignore ethics to reach their goal.

Ps: Im not saying zanz will follow the poll, we know he rules, not the majority.

-edit-
ferox, firequeen, both use feral bonds, and both can get a full field of creatures.  both have 12 feral bonds, and with 23 creatures in play that is a crap load of healing (276 hp/turn), so why havent these fgs been nerfed?  thats too much healing, boohoo, no, just no.  sogs are fine.
Yeah, some FGs have healing, but they dont have all possible strategies to shut down the opponent deck together with it. Massive healing, + massive CC, + massive PC, + quanta denial, etc. How about if we allow SoGs and ban black hole, explosion, steals and pulvy, them? We could allow massive healing at cost of other strategies, like the idea? These FGs dont need nerfing, some of the rainbows in arena could use a nerf. Sorry, your argument is invalid.

The only problem I see with majofa's idea:

Example:
The oracle shows you a Steam Machine.
:life Life, :time Time, and :gravity Gravity lightens up (random) on the wheel.

So this way you are forced to make a Steam deck, possibly with a multiplied fire mark, and besides that you have 3 other elements that you use; and they may have close to no good use to you at all.

Of course, with the example above, you sure will make one creative deck, but most often than not your deck will drop out quickly from the league in subject; because others got lucky, and maybe spun some natural synergies that day.

Besides this it's a nice idea, though I doubt the Oracle is programmed to make any coherency between the things he would show.
Remember, you can always let your deck from yesterday in play if things go bad (supposing its not eliminated). Also, deck building will be harder for everyone.

Hmmmm... maybe deck building could allow towers and pendulum from any elements.

I disagree with "rainbows are effective", and I disagree with banning supernovas and QTs.

I agree with the point made by someone else in another thread that people submit rainbows because that's what they have upgraded.

Of course it's hard to make a good deck if the oracle gives you a 'brick' (actually 5 bricks), so maybe then a rainbow could be the less worse.

I have no idea why people would consider SoGs to be annoying, it's really just 5 healing, can't you outdamage that? or simply pulv them away?

If there is a card that perhaps we should consider restricting maybe it is explosion. That's the card i'm looking to put in the deck i submit if i can.
Rainbows ARE effective vs most decks. You usually need a counter deck to win vs them, if they have FGs advantages. If its what people have upgraded, possibly true, but they are platinum, and could have other cards, too. Even a partially unupped deck can be dangerous with FGs advantages. My duo deck is #5 of platinum right now and have 8 unupped cards out of 36 of the base deck.

5 healing, heh? Lol, 1 SoG. And 10 of it? Pulvy is good, you can destroy Ferox Bonds for example, but most rainbows have heavy PC. You need draw the pulvy, a PA, and still accumulate quanta to play them and use the skill, which is not simple with EQs and BHs around, too. Even if you do, you need outdamage it while not being outdamaged, and this is also difficult, because you dont have double draw by default and will probably fail to get your Hourglass running (how many PAs a deck usually has?). And... not all decks use earth and gravity for Pulvy work.

Explosion is also a nasty card, but its a normal card, so I would prefer ban SoGs. In fact, FGs dont use shards. I always thought about them as cards that help player to win vs the AI cheats. I still think they shouldnt be a plus to already extremelly hard opponents (although, some people with 3 Gravity Nymphs can think they are easy ;) ).

Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Asinickle on July 11, 2011, 12:23:50 pm
I am voting for the Oracle limiting the number of elements you can use, as I think that added diversity to the decks would be more fun.
But then the issue comes of how many elements should be allowed for each card given by the oracle. Some require you to use an element that isn't the same as the card (werewolf and the sort), so the list of elements you can use would need to be custom made for every card if it was a strict elemental limit.
I'm thinking you should be able to choose 3 elements you can use, and then be able to use more by adding skill points into a skill, same as double marks and upgraded cards.
Also, by limiting the number of elements you can use, quantum towers and supernovas won't be an issue, and if they really want to use the skill to get a full rainbow, then the loss of other skills will balance it out.

For the SoGs- if it wouldn't take too much coding I'd like to see a limit of having 6 of them on the same side of the field. This would be just fine unless you are using a double draw deck (so only everyone in the arena), in which case you would either have to reduce the number of SoGs in your deck, thus reducing the likelihood of you drawing them, or have your hand get clogged with cards you can't play.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: whitevo on July 11, 2011, 01:26:48 pm
umm i got idea, let oracle choose you 3 different card?
this way you will get 15 unmoveable cards.
Yeah you'd be able to get real creative with nearly half of your deck already determined by the oracle and likely most of the rest being taken up by pillars/towers :)
Woot i got support :D (my ego raized about 5%)

Seriously though, if there are too many rainbows out there, just play anti-rainbow decks or even post strong anti-rainbow decks on the forums so more people start using them against arena.  Rainbow decks will lose more and either people will switch or their decks will get pushed out quickly by the ones that do.
Arena Rainbow decks doesnt rly bother me that much either, sometimes i get right cards in my hand to just overcontrol them and i win, sometimes not. I gave idea out to support the ppl who doesnt like rainbow decks, but arena doesnt rly need any change, i LoWe it the way it is. I just hope more ppl would play arena and if some restrictions would help geting more ppl späm arena im happy to support good ideas.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 11, 2011, 02:44:48 pm
I dunno where every one seen all those SoG ? For my part, for plat league I usually lost vs 200 hp *3mark double draw rushy deck which put 5 LD in the 3 first turn or 7 big critters while playing BH and using PC. But that is the game yeah.

I rarely met big rainbow and I'm proud of the creativity and the variety of the deck which leave in the arena (Always in plat league).

Where I see SoG every where it is in silver league. Wow those player are so proud of owning fews SoG that they put them every where.. The result ? their decks suxx. They just looks like a rushy deck but after playing 2/3 creature they stop their attack and play SoG. and loose most of the time.

For me arena is fine as it is. If we implement some restriction it can be good though and make the deckbuilding harder.



Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Terrilocks on July 12, 2011, 11:03:53 am
I'm pleased to hear Plat players are being more creative in their decks and not spamming SoG (as I would hope from those who obviously have been playing the game a long time), however Gold and Silver seem to be littered with them.

It's not that I mind using them AGAINST arena (in the same way they're vital against false gods), but the opposite is simply too much; a theoretical +60hp per turn on top of 200hp and draw/mark bonuses is just too much of an advantage.

My main problem with it is that it actually stifles creativity in vs arena decks as you always need to pack some heavy permanent control to stand a chance... which basically limits you to Entropy (Butterfly Effect) and Earth/Gravity (Pulverizer). I disregard Explosions as they can't really cope with SoG on top of the other shields, weapons, Bonds, Mindgates etc. they will probably throw at you.

That then severely limits your element choices: of all monos, only entropy has a chance and of all duos, you have to either mix something with entropy or go earth/gravity. So people inevitably choose rainbow.

Now the other problem is that SoG cost 3 random quanta. I'll say now I think Sancturies are much better balanced as they at least require 3 quanta from a specific element. This isn't so with SoG and people pretty much throw them in with any deck. This then means that whereas certain deck matchups might have been interesting and balanced (exploiting each others weaknesses etc.), the deck with SoG now always has a clear advantage... unless you have the heavy permanent control I mentioned earlier in which case you're probably using a rainbow.

Knowing this, many decks now also pack black holes as rainbows are really the only viable choice against a reasonable deck. There's not really much you can do about this though as you might try to counter by using a light deck (or combo) and then get screwed by your lack of permanent control againsst all those shards... (perhaps except entropy/light :P)

But yea, I personally refuse to use SoG in my arena decks as I feel they're nothing more than a cheap trick. Consequently my win rate hasn't been the best (still managed rank 34 in gold with mono entropy) but I'd like to think at least my matches were much more interesting for the opponeent.

Btw, I'm fine with quantum towers and supernova in the arena, but SoG are just too easy to add to any deck, and basically render the specific healing capabilities of certain elements (Life/Light/Earth/Darkness etc.) obsolete.

TL;DR Summary
SoG in Arena decks are overpowered. (they already have enough draw and life advantages etc...)
SoG in decks used to fight arena decks are fine. (we need them to survive False gods and False-god-like deck advantages, )
SoG in Arena decks require massive PC to remove effectively limiting you to entropy, earth/gravity or rainbow.
Unlike Sanctuaries, SoG are not linked to a specific element and so can literally be thrown in with anything.
All this combined massively reduces the viability of all but a few deck combinations versus Arean decks.
I have no problem with quantum towers and supernova in arena decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: petersenk on July 12, 2011, 12:34:05 pm
It's not that certain cards such as SoG's, explosion, earthquake or whatever are overpowered _in Arena_. That's bullcrap. Open your eyes. Clearly, the AI has been simply granted too much bonuses. Quadrupple-draw, tripple-deck, double-health, and the list goes on... this way of "enhancing" the AI is simply a dead-end, for it leads to frustrating games/matches that are no fun whatsoever. There is simply no fair challange anymore. Where is the fun in that? And then, as mentioned by others, you're bound to use certain decks, or you won't survive more than 2 turns anyway... hahaha

The arena, as is, is completly broken. The cards are fine.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 12, 2011, 12:45:18 pm
You're all wrong.  I was stomping the crap out of both gold and platinum with this deck.
Code: [Select]
5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 6rl 6rl 77e 77e 77e 77e 77e 77e 77g 77g 77g 77g 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7f2 7f2Not only was I winning more than losing, but I was winning a lot of bonus spins in the process.  One 12 game winning streak yielded 4 rares.
Also, the deck is fast, obviously, being a destroyer rush.

Sogs do not heal enough.
Heavy CC beats this, but that is still roughly 50%
PC is great to come across, as there are only 2 pends and 2 gavels.
Games are fast, win or lose, and that is the best way to go, no need for long drawn out games just to end up losing.
If you don't have these cards, I dunno what to tell you.

It works, it wins, and OBVIOUSLY there are some decks that will counter it easily, but I'd rather win a lot and fast than use slow ass ccyb or some other slow stall deck.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 12, 2011, 12:47:48 pm
Before Bucky...
The last 2 poster proved my point. It has already been established that arena is relatively easy with the right deck. The poll is made up of mainly people like the last 2 posters (-bucky) who want the arena to be easier. It is easy enough with the right deck. Has very good rewards as well. The poll doesnt show that peoplen want them banned so that the decks can be more creative, it is made up of people who want to ban them because they make it too hard.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Hodari on July 12, 2011, 02:20:48 pm
You're all wrong.  I was stomping the crap out of both gold and platinum with this deck.
Code: [Select]
5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 6rl 6rl 77e 77e 77e 77e 77e 77e 77g 77g 77g 77g 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7f2 7f2Not only was I winning more than losing, but I was winning a lot of bonus spins in the process.  One 12 game winning streak yielded 4 rares.
Also, the deck is fast, obviously, being a destroyer rush.
It works, it wins, and OBVIOUSLY there are some decks that will counter it easily, but I'd rather win a lot and fast than use slow ass ccyb or some other slow stall deck.
I just tried this one out.  The results were not quite as good as what you described but definitely enough to be profitable and like you said, the way this deck wins or loses so quickly is very nice.  Overall, I'd say the deck is very vulnerable to a lot of different types of counters but many others that it will be quite good against.  Looks like this will be especially nice for times when heavy PC and/or poison decks take over(as was the case for the first few days of Arena).  If anything, I would say this is one of the best parts of arena though..you can't just use the same deck every day and expect to win...you need to have a variety of options and adapt to what's out there on any given day
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 12, 2011, 08:34:14 pm
I think it is just better to play as many games as possible, rather than playing slow games with a near guarantee win.  Play 3 games Or 1 game, you could win all 3, or lose all 3, but then again, the 1 slow game you could still lose, speed = profit.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Selvaria on July 12, 2011, 09:38:04 pm
Before Bucky...
The poll doesnt show that peoplen want them banned so that the decks can be more creative, it is made up of people who want to ban them because they make it too hard.
Not really, its not really the difficulty of arena decks. Its just people get bored seeing the AI plays the same QTs, supernovas, and SoGs. Im quite sure the thread started because the OP want to see more creative decks, its just bucky started showing up and act all high and mighty how easy the arena is and saying that there is no need to change anything(with calling people names as extra sauce) and the argument of the difficulty started to show up.  Its the off topicness of his posts (read: flamings) that diverted the argument many times, like "fascism" and "Creative arts" and whatsoever.

I really suggest to read the post history around that "hitler" post.

This thread just shows how tl;dr attitude really screws everything up because alot people just showed up and didn't read everything from the start, or skipping the middle parts.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: SnoWeb on July 13, 2011, 06:46:30 am
[...] once again you have made yourself look like an idiot. [...]
*waits for whiny reply*
This is completely unnecessary!
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 13, 2011, 06:50:41 am
Yes, apparently some people aren't listening to the Global Moderator's warnings.

This is a discussion, not a soapbox upon which forum members are allowed to harass other forum members. Disagreements happen, and are a part of any controversial discussion. Any flaming/provoking will be removed, and the offending user will be messaged/disciplined accordingly.
Any more off-topic banter, flaming, name-calling, trolling, etc. will be grounds for a 24-hour ban. First and only warning.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 13, 2011, 07:04:25 am
If I get 24 hours, so should selvaria for starting it back up, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Terrilocks on July 13, 2011, 08:13:54 am
Before Bucky...
The last 2 poster proved my point. It has already been established that arena is relatively easy with the right deck. The poll is made up of mainly people like the last 2 posters (-bucky) who want the arena to be easier.

It is easy enough with the right deck. Has very good rewards as well. The poll doesnt show that peoplen want them banned so that the decks can be more creative, it is made up of people who want to ban them because they make it too hard.
It's not simply a case of making it easier, it's a case of balance. You can literally add SoG to ANY deck and reap the rewards, whereas you can only add PC to a limited number of decks (the limited choice of elements with PC I was talking about) to deal with them.

This means that all the "right decks" as you call them, most likely have to draw on these specific elements to counter them, which just seems a waste considering this game is all about versatility and countering other elements weaknesses etc. The potential of many elements lie relatively untapped.

SoG is too free to be thrown around in arena decks which already have their many advantages and their counter is much less free.

(I still wish to reiterate I'm fine with Quantum towers and Supernova in the arena!)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 13, 2011, 01:35:14 pm
Before Bucky...
The poll doesnt show that peoplen want them banned so that the decks can be more creative, it is made up of people who want to ban them because they make it too hard.
Not really, its not really the difficulty of arena decks. Its just people get bored seeing the AI plays the same QTs, supernovas, and SoGs. Im quite sure the thread started because the OP want to see more creative decks, its just bucky started showing up and act all high and mighty how easy the arena is and saying that there is no need to change anything(with calling people names as extra sauce) and the argument of the difficulty started to show up.
Sigh, Ive already pointed out that I am well aware of the OP's original reasoning for the topic, however, I am saying that although thats the OP's reason, majority of the people who are voting are voting due to the difficulty. If SoG/QT/SN were banned from the arena, they should be banned from the players deck as well. Why should we force arena participants to be creative, while allowing the challengers to use a boring rainbow or speedbow? Where you quoted me, the 2 posters before bucky outright admitted that they think its too powerful them having those cards. THAT is my point. The poll is worded in a way that shows bias, as well as how it has 2 different (and 1 of those 2 much more abundant) groups voting to ban. 1 small group that is honestly doing it for the creativity, and 1 large group that is doing it because they dont like the challenge.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 13, 2011, 02:31:42 pm
Selvaria, that smart Hitler post was in page 14, but was edited by jmizzle7. It surely was plain stupid, but there is no reason to bring it back to discussion. In fact, I think you could just ignore a person (I guess you know who). People that read the thread can really realize who is idiot by seeing who spammed false arguments contrary to any arena change (things like 'shards will be harder to obtain by newbie people', 'SoGs are fine because you can beat Ferox', 'majority rules' when the poll is at his side and 'we dont have enough people voting to it to be valid' when the poll changes). Worse than that, did it in"goodlike feeling" mood, with unpolite words like "think before posting", "if you have no clue about what you are talking about, read the thread", etc. Just in case, I read (again) 1st page and have no clue about anything that could make you look idiot, in fact, I think your description was pretty accurate. That said, is it worthy to discuss with people (or trolls) like that? Dont waste your time, mate. If he comes with a poor argument, we will beat it. Otherwise, lets report the flames.

BluePriest, I think shards are used by players to balance the games when AI has 'unfair' advantages (people are able to use in normal games, but they are not needed them). This is the case, I see no problem about people using them. But allowing people creating decks use them would just increase the advantages, so that I consider a bad thing. Speedbow to fight Arena? Doesnt seem probable, they dont work vs FGs, and they usually dont use shards, anyway. People will surely use some FG Killer decks, but there will be always variations. About the poll, people is already voting to not ban QT, and that looks already enough challenge. Well constructed rainbow dont need shards to be difficult. I understand your point, however.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 13, 2011, 03:02:03 pm
BluePriest, I think shards are used by players to balance the games when AI has 'unfair' advantages (people are able to use in normal games, but they are not needed them). This is the case, I see no problem about people using them. But allowing people creating decks use them would just increase the advantages, so that I consider a bad thing. Speedbow to fight Arena? Doesnt seem probable, they dont work vs FGs, and they usually dont use shards, anyway. People will surely use some FG Killer decks, but there will be always variations. About the poll, people is already voting to not ban QT, and that looks already enough challenge. Well constructed rainbow dont need shards to be difficult. I understand your point, however.
The problem is that they are SUPPOSE to have an advantage. Shards shorten that advantage.

Regardless though, 1 area that people seem to have forgotten...
If Shards are banned from the arena, how do you plan on winning them? Not everyone has them. t50 is gone so they cant be farmed anymore. Pvp will be the only possible format to win them. Some would argue that this would make more people do pvp, however, it has extreme flaws so such an emphasis shouldnt be put on random pvp battles unless these flaws are fixed.

This just deals with SoG's of course, and I have other reasons, however, I dont remember seeing it mentioned yet.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Hodari on July 13, 2011, 03:21:46 pm
If Shards are banned from the arena, how do you plan on winning them?
Note that the cards you are able to win from rare spins are not related at all to what cards are actually in a player's deck, so they could still be won in that way even if shards were banned from arena.  On the other hand, I think outright banning ANY cards from Arena is a bad idea and I'm fairly sure Zanz also said at some point that he does not intend to do so.  If shards are being used to much, just put in more permanent control in your deck or use a rush which can kill them before they have time to get to many out(or some combination of these two).   If these STILL prove to be too much to deal with them, then maybe shards could be restricted or nerfed in some other way but totally banning them seems completely unnecessary.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 14, 2011, 02:40:15 am
BluePriest, I think shards are used by players to balance the games when AI has 'unfair' advantages (people are able to use in normal games, but they are not needed them). This is the case, I see no problem about people using them. But allowing people creating decks use them would just increase the advantages, so that I consider a bad thing. Speedbow to fight Arena? Doesnt seem probable, they dont work vs FGs, and they usually dont use shards, anyway. People will surely use some FG Killer decks, but there will be always variations. About the poll, people is already voting to not ban QT, and that looks already enough challenge. Well constructed rainbow dont need shards to be difficult. I understand your point, however.
The problem is that they are SUPPOSE to have an advantage. Shards shorten that advantage.

Regardless though, 1 area that people seem to have forgotten...
If Shards are banned from the arena, how do you plan on winning them? Not everyone has them. t50 is gone so they cant be farmed anymore. Pvp will be the only possible format to win them. Some would argue that this would make more people do pvp, however, it has extreme flaws so such an emphasis shouldnt be put on random pvp battles unless these flaws are fixed.

This just deals with SoG's of course, and I have other reasons, however, I dont remember seeing it mentioned yet.
But they do have advantages - high HP, double draw, and in Platinum leage, all the advantages of a False God. Plus, they have the advantages of being able to chuck in heavy PC, which few False Gods have due to balancing issues (there are only two False Gods with 12 PC cards, not including Seism). That alone is bad enough even without the SoGs healing them up, and using Miracle when you finally get their HP down (but that's a completely different debate).

Shards are effectively the main advantage the player has over the AI, and the only reason they were balanced is because nobody was ever allowed to use more than 6 of them.

But heavy PC and SoG spam is really only practical in a rainbow deck. Majofa's solution would limit the use of both (there are only two elements with reliable PC, and SoGs cost three times as much in a non-rainbow). That said, sometimes players will get all or most elements lit up, and will be able to use rainbows. But for the most part, the Arena will become more versatile, and consequently, more fun.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Terrilocks on July 14, 2011, 04:02:10 am
Before Bucky...
The poll doesnt show that peoplen want them banned so that the decks can be more creative, it is made up of people who want to ban them because they make it too hard.
Not really, its not really the difficulty of arena decks. Its just people get bored seeing the AI plays the same QTs, supernovas, and SoGs. Im quite sure the thread started because the OP want to see more creative decks, its just bucky started showing up and act all high and mighty how easy the arena is and saying that there is no need to change anything(with calling people names as extra sauce) and the argument of the difficulty started to show up.
Sigh, Ive already pointed out that I am well aware of the OP's original reasoning for the topic, however, I am saying that although thats the OP's reason, majority of the people who are voting are voting due to the difficulty. If SoG/QT/SN were banned from the arena, they should be banned from the players deck as well. Why should we force arena participants to be creative, while allowing the challengers to use a boring rainbow or speedbow? Where you quoted me, the 2 posters before bucky outright admitted that they think its too powerful them having those cards. THAT is my point. The poll is worded in a way that shows bias, as well as how it has 2 different (and 1 of those 2 much more abundant) groups voting to ban. 1 small group that is honestly doing it for the creativity, and 1 large group that is doing it because they dont like the challenge.
Hmm, so you sorta completely missed the point of my post but still use me as an example of the camp that 'wants to make things easier' (with the implication that we're whining it's too hard). The problem here is you're missing the subtle distinction between making something easier so that it has more than one solution and making something easier for the sake of it.

If a card that healed 50 life every turn were added and cost 5 quanta, surely you would complain that it gave your opponent unfair advantages. Well on the face of it, you're also complaining to get rid of it and make things 'easier'. The difference here though is that the card is obviously not well-balanced.

We're using the same argument in regard to SoG. The difference is, instead of 1 card that gives 50hp it's up to a possible 12 that give +60hp. Not really that much of a difference. Besides, arena decks already have double drawing, extra life, extra mark etc. As the person above me said: SoG were introduced to make battles vs false gods easier - nearly every anti-FG deck has them. The thing is, now arena decks, which are comparable to FGs, also have them which not only makes them more powerful, but negates the original bonus we had to fight them making only a very few decks viable anti-arena decks.

And your point about not being able to win shards is simply not true - I've already won an extra SoR from the rare spin so they're still out there. Ironically, get rid of SoG from arena decks and there'll be more ways to win vs them and you'll win more shards from rare spins. xD
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 14, 2011, 04:14:56 am
No im not missing your point. Your ultimate point is that you think it is too hard since they can use them. Its not any harder than that. You can try to make it foggy by saying that the other bonuses + these cards are the problem, but ultimately you are saying its too hard = not a valid reason.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Terrilocks on July 14, 2011, 07:39:02 am
You're just looking at the surface level which doesn't show you the whole picture.

At what point would things become 'too hard' for you to start raising questions? Was my one-card giving +50hp per turn example acceptable to you then? Bearing in mind it's not SoG alone that's the problem, it's the wider impact of SoG in combination with other FG-like benefits. SoG is just the tip of the ice-berg built up by all the other advantages. I'm not saying that arena decks shouldn't be as strong or even stronger than their FG counterparts, just that imo, SoG tip the balance a little too far in their favour.

1. They can be used in every deck due to no specific element cost.
2. Only a few elements have persistent PC to deal with them.

How do you answer those two points or is it acceptable for every element to use the same healing source (making Heal, Holy Flash, Stone Skin etc. relatively pointless), and are elements without PC simply supposed to be inferior and not worthy of attention?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 14, 2011, 08:57:25 am
Elements without reusable aren't pointless they are just bad in plat league.

Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 14, 2011, 10:06:56 am
Arena is not hard.  Build a better deck.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Terrilocks on July 14, 2011, 11:05:05 am
I don't want an Immolation Rush thanks... oh wait, that's practically my only option other than a cookie-cutter rainbow.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 14, 2011, 11:09:59 am
There are plenty of decks that work against most of the arena decks.  That just happens to be one that is successful, for me anyway. 
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Terrilocks on July 14, 2011, 11:38:29 am
Hah! QED
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: SnoWeb on July 14, 2011, 11:51:07 am
There are plenty of decks that work against most of the arena decks. 
I have to agree with bucky here. Platinum league is hard but not too hard. I believe that there are a way higher number of decks efficient in platinum league that there are against FG.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 14, 2011, 12:26:45 pm
I don't want an Immolation Rush thanks... oh wait, that's practically my only option other than a cookie-cutter rainbow.
You can also go shakars.

So lets see, you can do shakars, immo rush, and cookie cutter rainbow. Has anyone tried Strong wyrms? That seems like it would work.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 14, 2011, 12:45:06 pm
@Terrilocks
Have you tried other decks?  If you have how many?  What decks?  How many games did you play with each?  Are they fully upgraded decks?  If not, roughly what percent of the decks you used were upgraded?  What did you play against bronze, silver, gold, platinum?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 14, 2011, 01:38:27 pm
@Terrilocks
Have you tried other decks?  If you have how many?  What decks?  How many games did you play with each?  Are they fully upgraded decks?  If not, roughly what percent of the decks you used were upgraded?  What did you play against bronze, silver, gold, platinum?
This is something I would like see you answer too, because you stated "There are plenty of decks that work against most of the arena decks". Remember this means they should have at least 50% win rate.

Personally, I think immo rush is not a good option to play arena. You usually lose because they start at 150+ HP, have shards, and can take down some of your creatures. Vs decks with no healing it could work.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 14, 2011, 01:43:26 pm
@Terrilocks
Have you tried other decks?  If you have how many?  What decks?  How many games did you play with each?  Are they fully upgraded decks?  If not, roughly what percent of the decks you used were upgraded?  What did you play against bronze, silver, gold, platinum?
This is something I would like see you answer too, because you stated "There are plenty of decks that work against most of the arena decks". Remember this means they should have at least 50% win rate.
No. Just No. Zanz has said that arena is suppose to give that "level 7" that so many people wanted. I would be dissapointed if you found a deck like that. It is suppose to be more difficult thanFG's by a good amount.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Hodari on July 14, 2011, 02:03:12 pm
This is something I would like see you answer too, because you stated "There are plenty of decks that work against most of the arena decks". Remember this means they should have at least 50% win rate.
  No, I would say it means they win often enough to be profitable in the long run to use.  Given that there is usually better than a 10 to 1 ratio between the cost to play each game and how much you can win(and even more if you EM or can beat one of the top 5 decks) in platinum, you could have a MUCH lower win rate than 50% and still be earning score and money very quickly.  I believe Zanz said at one point that the win rate was somewhere around 33% which was roughly where he wanted it and which is still pretty good money.

  As for specific decks, I personally have used my variant of CCYB, RoL/hope, JMZ classic, immo rush, a 60 card rainbow that I threw together myself, and perhaps one or two other decks at various times with a good rate of success.  Actual results on any given day will vary quite a bit depending on what decks everyone has submitted so as I've said many times, the best way to succeed is play a few games, see what's out there, and then THINK for yourself about how you can effectively counter the more popular deck types you're running into that day.  If there's too wide a variety to easily identify one type or another as dominant, than odds are most of the better FG and/or PVP decks will have a chance.  Either way, you won't win EVERY game, so don't expect to.  You probably won't win 50% either.  With the right deck though(or better yet, a variety of different ones to choose from), you CAN win quite a bit.

  And finally, all of the above is primarily for platinum.  If you're not having much luck there on any given day, there are still the other 3 leagues to choose from as well and they will probably be easier(or if nothing else different) decks, so you can always try those instead.  Gold in particular is a good alternative since it still gives upped rare spins and often the electrum reward for winning is nearly as high as platinum with the only drawback being needing one more win to get the rare spin
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 14, 2011, 03:05:11 pm
"There are plenty of decks that work against most of the arena decks"
If these decks work against MOST OF arena decks, than they should win more than 50%, agreed? Im not saying its supposed to be easy. But if there are plenty of decks that work against MOST OF arena decks, I would like to know some :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 14, 2011, 03:07:31 pm
"There are plenty of decks that work against most of the arena decks"
If these decks work against MOST OF arena decks, than they should win more than 50%, agreed? Im not saying its supposed to be easy. But if there are plenty of decks that work against MOST OF arena decks, I would like to know some :)
Not exactly - even if it works against most of the Arena decks, it's not guaranteed to beat those ones every time.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 14, 2011, 03:19:19 pm
Yeah, but sometimes you also can defeat a opponent that is normally a bad match up. If a deck work agains most of enemies, the win rate should be at least close to 50%. If there are plenty of these, maybe someone can share some.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 14, 2011, 04:48:27 pm
Marv you want to know decks that works against which league ?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 14, 2011, 08:13:20 pm
Marv, I will not tell you any other decks other than the destroyer rush i posted that works.

I told someone in chat this the other day about a deck I use when farming.

"I wouldn't be using the deck if I wasn't making money"

I am almost 100% sure it meant the destroyer rush, and overall, the decks in gold and platinum are diverse enough that I win often enough to get bonus spins a lot.  I have gone up 10k score really quick and have made roughly 6k gold.  This is like 4 days of farming, not constant farming either, as I tend to get sleepy when I grind too much.

Also, I'd like to add that unless you play with the same deck for at least a couple days, without changing it at all, you will never know how good it is against the arena.  Losing a few times in a row right away means nothing, and you should not alter your deck quite yet.  RNG fails me all the time, but I continue to use the destroyer rush because it has been doing good enough and battles are fast.

Fast games with a decent win percent = (http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/b/0/0/50/d/AAAAC1b4pFsAAAAAAFDcEw.png?v=1244065658000)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 15, 2011, 01:52:17 am
Yeah, but sometimes you also can defeat a opponent that is normally a bad match up. If a deck work agains most of enemies, the win rate should be at least close to 50%. If there are plenty of these, maybe someone can share some.
This is something I would like see you answer too, because you stated "There are plenty of decks that work against most of the arena decks". Remember this means they should have at least 50% win rate.
No. Just No. Zanz has said that arena is suppose to give that "level 7" that so many people wanted. I would be dissapointed if you found a deck like that. It is suppose to be more difficult thanFG's by a good amount.
50% is NOT good for the arena. 25% AT BEST is what I expect from the arena.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: shasd on July 15, 2011, 03:04:58 am
Best deck that I have tried is the collab'd edit of JMZ Classic for farming Silver and Gold at least. Haven't tried Plat very much with it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 15, 2011, 04:11:56 am
Marv you want to know decks that works against which league ?
Gold and Platinum. A CCYB can defeat most Bronze / Silver decks without much problem :)

50% is NOT good for the arena. 25% AT BEST is what I expect from the arena.
25% win rate at best? Well, in this case I assume there are NOT plenty of decks that work against MOST of the arena decks. Of course, someone could prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Aves on July 15, 2011, 04:17:29 am
So... my two :electrum
 I voted no, because it looks like a bunch of anti-rainbow stuff. I get it, rainbow is powerful. It's common, and 'used too much', either 'too difficult' or 'too boring because its a stall.' That's because it works. It's also not the only thing that has been spammed, or will be spammed. Remember RoL/Hope? Time/Earth Graboid rush? Liquid Antimatter? Lava destroyers+cremation? Fractal Phoenixes? Ghostmare? Life rush? Poison rush? Have these not been 'spammed,' used over and over again in PvP by players of the elements community throughout its existence? Just because rainbows are spammed, other decks can't or won't be spammed too.

I'm not getting the whole rainbow ends 'creativity' thing. How does it? Is it wrong to use what works? How should lower ranked players who spent all of their time getting a FG-killer rainbow use Arena? Do players not build on the ideas that others post, and tweak for efficiency, mod based on our own card pool, test synergies, and even counter them? Are we expected to use only original deck ideas, when there is barely over a dozen cards in each element? I'm sure that you could create 'oraclebows' for every card. But each card is unique, with its unique strengths and weaknesses. If somebody tweaks an oraclebow to take advantage of that, can you really say that its 'not creative' or detrimental to the community?
If somebody could explain this to me, I would be very grateful.  :D
---
I'm also using a CCYB against all 4 Leagues. Bronze and Silver have been mostly easy, though I have lost a few. With Gold its win some lose some. Platinum's a bit difficult, but even though my win rate is low the wins I do get more than compensate, with only 15 :electrum lost per defeat. Many close, fun matches  :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: doublecross on July 15, 2011, 04:21:02 am
I say that the fact that decks age should end this argument.

Platinum Arena decks are supposed to be the hardest AI in the game, but unlike the FG's there already are limitations on what cards they may use.   Further restricting this doesn't enhance the experience.


Maybe if it starts to be that all the arena decks are centred around these cards, this topic can be re-opened.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Hodari on July 15, 2011, 04:32:32 am
25% win rate at best? Well, in this case I assume there are NOT plenty of decks that work against MOST of the arena decks. Of course, someone could prove me wrong.
I assume that if you spend as much time trying out different decks as you have on here arguing over semantics, you'd be doing a lot better in arena ;)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 15, 2011, 06:06:18 am
@ Marv : there are deck I've used vs those league and had works quite good (IE at least 45/50% vs gold and 33% vs plat)

Gold : CCYB, RoL/hope, JMZ classic, tadabow tweaked, lava rush, the shutdown, I've GotP time, pestal, 500EM deckout.deck, and a personnal deck (the wyrm looks in duo deck if you want)

plat : RoL/hope, the shutdown, lava rush, I've GotP time, 500Em deckout.deck, big time bow woth a lot of variation, JMZ tweaked..

Those are JUST the decks I've tried. All gave me lot of money and score (I gained ~70k score since arena is on and play ~1h per day at best.. except two days where I played 10 hours). So i think there exist enough efficient deck to avoid a boring farm. and I don't even talk about deck available vs bronze/silver..
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Marvaddin on July 15, 2011, 06:54:17 am
25% win rate at best? Well, in this case I assume there are NOT plenty of decks that work against MOST of the arena decks. Of course, someone could prove me wrong.
I assume that if you spend as much time trying out different decks as you have on here arguing over semantics, you'd be doing a lot better in arena ;)
This thread is a discussion about creating limits in deck creation and thats something that has to do with arena difficulty. And if there is an argument about arena being already easy, I see no reason to let it pass, otherwise it could be considered true. So its not just about semantics, but about the thread theme.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 15, 2011, 07:15:52 am
Marv you want to know decks that works against which league ?
Gold and Platinum. A CCYB can defeat most Bronze / Silver decks without much problem :)

50% is NOT good for the arena. 25% AT BEST is what I expect from the arena.
25% win rate at best? Well, in this case I assume there are NOT plenty of decks that work against MOST of the arena decks. Of course, someone could prove me wrong.
thats what I hope for. If better is found once arena is known better, then I will be dissapointed.I had hoped the higher leagues would be harder.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 15, 2011, 08:16:02 am
Btw Svenningen submitted a deck with 12 sanc and 12 SoG quantum pillat and SN.

I EM'd him in 5 mins.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: zombie0 on July 16, 2011, 06:18:27 pm
i would like to suggest that supernova is too easymode for arena deckbuilding.  any platinum player can go 6 supernova, 2 :entropy mark 200hp and add whatever cards they like.  it really doesnt matter what the cards are, just rainbow the cards.  as a player you cant stop it, its going to explode in your face.  every other kind of deck, you weight the pros and cons of smashing its towers versus smashing its shield/weapons.  :entropy you dont, you just accept that every single opening hand they get will be a good hand and brace for the beatdown.

any fool can make a supernova deck with 75%+ creatures and know with 100% certainty it will work.  it breaks the ratio and risk all other decks face.  supernova is balanced for players with 1 card per turn: you usually get a speed boost at a card disadvantage.  it just ends up that supernova arena decks dont suffer card disadvantage, quantum issues, or speed issues.  thats whats unfair.

should it be banned?  i say yes for submitted arena decks.  regular nova can give a splash of color and speed, quantum towers give large potential quantum with no guarantees.

when people are using 8 :earth card in their :entropy mark deck there is a problem, imo

while we are on the warpath, how about less fire stalls everyone?  no one really wants to play a 10 minute game against that...
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on July 16, 2011, 09:34:56 pm
Ok no more boohooing, arena is fine the way it is, if you feel there is not enough creativity with the deck builders, take it up with them individually.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: whitevo on July 17, 2011, 03:52:49 pm
2 hint how to beat rainbow and supernova decks:

1. pandemonium
2. rain of fire/fire storm

now make deck with these cards in it. (for me useing these cards in anti-rush deck i have beaten 70% rainbow decks.)
Problem is, soon after you will find out there is so little amount of  typical rush rainbow and supernova decks out there.

My post point is: Don't blame arena, blame your deck and God who made you choose this deck to play with it at that exact moment.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Shantu on July 18, 2011, 12:04:34 am
Who cares about Quantum Towers and Supernovas? We need to ban FIRE from the Arena.

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd213568/FireIsUnderpowered.png)



This is obviously a semi-joke before someone gets offended. It should transfer the message though.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Terrilocks on July 20, 2011, 12:17:17 pm
At least 25% of the top 25 decks in ALL leagues have a fire mark.

Just though I'd throw that in there for you as well. :P
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: kirchj33 on July 20, 2011, 12:24:28 pm
Everyone has become so impressive with their decks that arena is now not fun and unplayable to me.  There is enough variety in rush/stall/PC that it is overly frustration to try and play a reliable counter to me.  That is all.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: LongDono on July 20, 2011, 12:33:02 pm
I wish more people would be like me and self limit themselves. I always cut down on uber cards like SoG's. If I do use them I don't max them. Then I take 1-2 good cards out of the deck. There are some plat and Gold decks so powerful that unless you get lucky you can not win.
Even if you do what I do and weaken your deck by getting rid of some power cards you can still do well. I am 8-0 right now and in top 100 after not even 24 hours. So you can still do well.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 20, 2011, 12:35:35 pm
Except when I get a very good card and wanna do very well with my deck I do like LD and build an average deck (the last I made went 48 - 1 though).

That allows some fun in deckbuilding and moar fun for people who try the leagues.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 20, 2011, 01:46:09 pm
Everyone has become so impressive with their decks that arena is now not fun and unplayable to me.  There is enough variety in rush/stall/PC that it is overly frustration to try and play a reliable counter to me.  That is all.
Then dont do arena. Arena IS SUPPOSE to be harder than FG's. It is SUPPOSE to be the "ultimate challenge" or "level 7" that people use to request.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 20, 2011, 02:39:29 pm
I think that this is right for platinum league but sometimes gold or even silver turn me mad..
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on July 20, 2011, 03:06:42 pm
I think that this is right for platinum league but sometimes gold or even silver turn me mad..
I dont have a problem with silver so much, but gold  and platinum are almost indistinguishable. I do agree on that one.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 20, 2011, 03:12:24 pm
Yeah silver is fairly easy but there are some boring deck (mass RT or mass CC or mass BH deck are very boring and can win..)

For gold it depend the day in fact ^^ I don't play platinum because the rewards are the same in gold.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: kirchj33 on July 20, 2011, 03:52:51 pm
Everyone has become so impressive with their decks that arena is now not fun and unplayable to me.  There is enough variety in rush/stall/PC that it is overly frustration to try and play a reliable counter to me.  That is all.
Then dont do arena. Arena IS SUPPOSE to be harder than FG's. It is SUPPOSE to be the "ultimate challenge" or "level 7" that people use to request.
Yeah.... that's what I said.  I am no longer doing it.  You didn't make any original point with your thoughts in this post.  I merely was stating that I don't think arena is worth playing for me anymore because I don't think it is worth playing because of the frustration associated with it.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: MeetJSquared on July 20, 2011, 06:57:40 pm
I usually switch around silver and gold (with the occasional FG here and there) depending on how i am running.  when gold is frustrating me, silver usually helps me out cause i can get like 80-90% win rate.  i've seen a lot less of SN, QT, and SoG over the last week.  i'm seeing a lot more fire rush (tons of it), GotP, and pestal and not too many rainbow decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Aves on July 21, 2011, 02:53:55 am
I play Arena for the challenge. Okay, there are some really annoying decks which can shut you down in an instant. But they don't matter; just skip, if they're really that annoying . Difficulty is a non-issue here. You win some, you lose some. The difference between this and the FGs is that it's really really really hard to lose score/electrum. Even a 10/15% win rate (gold/platinum) means that you're actually not losing anything besides the time you spent trying the matches.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on July 21, 2011, 06:09:45 am
Yeah what he said the rewards are REALLY high (I made more than 75k score while I can't play the day cuz I'm at work, can't play play the evening & night too cuz I'm busy since 3 weeks). In a gold match you can win more than 100 score/electrum in one min and 300 for an EM.

However FG don't give score that much but they are far better for upped cards I think.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: wavedash on August 04, 2011, 03:58:32 am
So we've all given up, huh?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: BluePriest on August 04, 2011, 04:12:56 am
So we've all given up, huh?
On what forcing people to not use decks that we dont like? Yeah. I hope so.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: couponlady on August 04, 2011, 12:08:06 pm
I do get annoyed at many of the Gold Decks I loose to playing The Arena.  I started playing Gold decks and they can be really annoying.  A lot of the decks do use Quantum Towers. Also a lot of the decks will use the same cards like Steal, Explosion and Antimatter. It doesn't really matter what there quantum mark is because they are using Quantum Towers.  I was lucky enough to loose to a mono rush deck with Forest Scorpions, Cockatrices and Frogs. This deck made me think about when the oracle gave me a Forest Scorpion. I decided that I would make a mono deck but I didn't do as well. I wasn't thinking about how to put a Forest Scorpion in a rainbow deck. It seems like a lot of people use the card the oracle has given them and they still try to make a rainbow deck. It is annoying but I do think there shouldn't be a ban on any cards.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Plantifant on August 04, 2011, 08:19:26 pm
Ofcourse you don't remove them.
If you hate them, you make an anti-deck, and yes there are alot of them.
If they would be removed, the game would suck, because all the decks are the same, and you would lose alot more, because you can still use the cards when you fight against arena decks
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: bucky1andonly on August 04, 2011, 10:35:18 pm
Let's just let this thread die once again, and leave it dead this time.  Arena is fine the way it is.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: sharkweekk on August 04, 2011, 11:26:11 pm
So we've all given up, huh?
From my experience playing gold, rainbow decks are becoming less and less common. My rainbow killer is becoming less profitable. Fire, gravity and darkness (and looking at the platinum leaderboards, death as well) decks have risen to be the most powerful decks. I don't think that there is a good reason to ban cards if they aren't powering the  best arena decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ralouf on August 04, 2011, 11:28:29 pm
Yeah now death decks rules <3
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 17, 2019, 06:51:08 pm
(http://www.liberaldictionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/necromancer.jpg)

I would ban SoD for decks older than 10 days.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 17, 2019, 08:12:32 pm
if u put sod in your deck it means:

u log the game almost daily
u are smart

most games rewards these two things
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: MasterWalks on May 17, 2019, 08:15:09 pm
if u put sod in your deck it means:

u log the game almost daily
u are smart

most games rewards these two things

nfl_toros would disagree
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 17, 2019, 08:15:28 pm
I'd say Manuel is using irony.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 17, 2019, 08:23:12 pm
where is irony lol

nlf toros is only player, anyone can mod his deck to light mark and add sod for getting some more wins after day 7, there is nothing wrong or unfair about it
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: immortal feud on May 18, 2019, 12:08:07 am
didnt serp have the right idea with maximum hp reduction being capped before 1hp
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 18, 2019, 12:35:23 am
where is irony lol

nlf toros is only player, anyone can mod his deck to light mark and add sod for getting some more wins after day 7, there is nothing wrong or unfair about it

I hoped there was some irony. Because you don't have to be a good player to add a cheesy tactic to net some more wins. Yeah, I do that sometimes, too
(especially when I don't get a nice card to make another plat deck, or my current deck is top 5-ish), but calling a player "smart" because he is doing a
cheese-fest, nah. Especially when he is doing that for months.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ddevans96 on May 18, 2019, 12:40:54 am
The system is bunk right now, and players take advantage of it by grinding 1HP decks, so I don't have an issue with defending decks doing the same. Especially since it barely matters on the attacking end, grinding is still super efficient regardless of how you choose to handle fresh decks.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 18, 2019, 01:17:31 pm
I hoped there was some irony. Because you don't have to be a good player to add a cheesy tactic to net some more wins. Yeah, I do that sometimes, too
(especially when I don't get a nice card to make another plat deck, or my current deck is top 5-ish), but calling a player "smart" because he is doing a
cheese-fest, nah. Especially when he is doing that for months.

cheesy? it's a 50 coinflip hoping to play 2 pillars and one sod in the first turn AT BEST

if i have this

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7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 7n0 7n0 7n1 7n1 7n1 7n5 7n9 7nq 7nq 7nq 7nq 7nq 8pr


i need to change it into this

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7km 7km 7km 7km 7km 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mu 7mv 7mv 7mv 7n0 7n1 7n1 7nq 7nq 7nq 7nq 8pq


i lose a lot of utility cards and i lose the air mark, all this for hoping my opponent can't deal damage in the first turn and i can fuel a single sod

i posted last day a counter for sod decks, like players in 2014 played purify in every deck or massive healing for counter sosac they will learn to farm with sopa
when swallow or pdials was the best way to farm sod decks like these was even more stronger:

swallow totally lacks damage without sopa (waiting 2 turns for fuel sopa + 1 turn of boost)
pdials always suffered of weird mulligan for 6 dials and 7(?) pillars, so wasn't really easy draw 2 pillars + poison in the first turn

now sod decks are a lot weaker until u put damage in it, even if the deck is totally inverted, for example the same monoair i posted with damsel as oracle card is turned into this

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7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jr 7jr 7jr 7jr 7jr 7jv 7jv 7jv 7k2 7k2 7km 7km 7km 7km 7km 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7nq 7nq 7nq 8pq


is totally weaker, i invest 5 + 2 card slots only for keeping alive the deck losing a lot of speed

if i turn the deck into a semistall

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5ls 5ls 5ls 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7k2 7k2 7km 7km 7km 7km 7km 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7n0 7n0 7n1 7n1 7n5 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 8pq


i lack cc i lack a wincon and i can't play more cards since i need to keep the deck smaller for drawing sods
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 18, 2019, 01:30:16 pm
I hoped there was some irony. Because you don't have to be a good player to add a cheesy tactic to net some more wins. Yeah, I do that sometimes, too
(especially when I don't get a nice card to make another plat deck, or my current deck is top 5-ish), but calling a player "smart" because he is doing a
cheese-fest, nah. Especially when he is doing that for months.

cheesy? it's a 50 coinflip hoping to play 2 pillars and one sod in the first turn AT BEST


That's certainly the thing which makes it cheesy. You can easily insert 6 sods + a few miracles into any kind of plat decks.
Of course you will lose some edge, it is normal, you put stall cards into your deck.

But from this point it is just a matter of taste. You like SoD, while I don't when it is about arena decks, because it ruins
bronze/silver/gold and stains platinum. That's why I think it shouldn't be permitted for decks older than 10 days,
because after that it is just trolling the original spirit of arena.

And yeah, we can use anti-SoD decks for farming, but boy, are they tedious. Using Mutations and/or SoSe is much more fun,
and since I can allow myself not to farm at 100% efficiency I choose that.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 18, 2019, 02:00:23 pm
Of course you will lose some edge, it is normal, you put stall cards into your deck.

But from this point it is just a matter of taste. You like SoD, while I don't when it is about arena decks, because it ruins
bronze/silver/gold and stains platinum. That's why I think it shouldn't be permitted for decks older than 10 days,
because after that it is just trolling the original spirit of arena.

And yeah, we can use anti-SoD decks for farming, but boy, are they tedious. Using Mutations and/or SoSe is much more fun,
and since I can allow myself not to farm at 100% efficiency I choose that.

i know is easier think to ban a card or flag the posts of people u don't like but is a lot easier adapt to it
wanna play mutations? u have ai4, u can even farm fg with a mutation deck until u mod it, back in the days was impossible think to have fun while grinding plat
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 18, 2019, 02:26:01 pm

But from this point it is just a matter of taste.


I'm not the type who likes to adapt to rules which I deem bad. And yeah, back in the days...
Imagine any corresponding meme you like.
:)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 19, 2019, 01:57:52 am
 :) :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: shockcannon on May 19, 2019, 02:17:27 am
Here's a brilliant idea. We ban you two noobs from arena. Problem solved.


 :) :) :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 19, 2019, 09:16:45 am
how about not trolling? :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 19, 2019, 12:55:26 pm
necro'ing and bring out a discussion based on personal taste ignoring explanations of other players on why that particular thing is more beneficial than harmful >>> trolling

 :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 19, 2019, 02:31:29 pm
I'm really sorry that I wasn't here around 2011, shame on me. Your explanation wasn't ignored, that's why I said that our opinions
largely differ, pointless to argue about it. Explanation doesn't equal ABSOLUTE TRUTH - btw I explained my opinion, too -,
we could just shut down the forum if things would work like this.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 19, 2019, 02:58:20 pm
there is a small difference between ablosute truth and recognize why a card is made and how it works

dbh, monodarkness and any well built denial deck are able to permalock even at 1 hp if u don't play a zero hitter in the first turn, there are no opinion on this is how the game is designed, explaining this isn't trolling and there is no reason to cry about closing the forum lmao, sod decks are at same level of these deck u can play around it like u can be totally unlucky and lose

 :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: serprex on May 19, 2019, 04:19:35 pm
Honestly this necro has been so confusing that only someone like Manuel would bother to try help Wyand understand his err

Arena is broken because of 1hp & NaN, not SoD. Original post was about when shards were colorless. I wasn't around for that, but my understanding is that it was a much more broken meta than the modern QQ over sopa/sofr. So Wyand's necro'd some now irrelevant topic with a total off topic tangent that nobody can even understand the inspiration for. It's okay to not've been around in 2011, but if you're going to necro have context. Back in 2011 there was a chance that things could change (in fact, they did), but do you really think Zanz is going to come back just to ban SoD from arena??!?!?

Is Wyand proof that we live in simulated reality??
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 19, 2019, 04:34:10 pm
Honestly this necro has been so confusing that only someone like Manuel would bother to try help Wyand understand his err

Arena is broken because of 1hp & NaN, not SoD. Original post was about when shards were colorless. I wasn't around for that, but my understanding is that it was a much more broken meta than the modern QQ over sopa/sofr. So Wyand's necro'd some now irrelevant topic with a total off topic tangent that nobody can even understand the inspiration for. It's okay to not've been around in 2011, but if you're going to necro have context. Back in 2011 there was a chance that things could change (in fact, they did), but do you really think Zanz is going to come back just to ban SoD from arena??!?!?

Is Wyand proof that we live in simulated reality??

only someone like me would explain you that all the discussion is based on theory and hypothesis and not hoping for zanz to come back and ban sod

u got your daily dose of attention for today, i think u can let people discuss about things u probably don't care (and don't know) without crying

 :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 19, 2019, 09:33:18 pm
Honestly this necro has been so confusing that only someone like Manuel would bother to try help Wyand understand his err

Arena is broken because of 1hp & NaN, not SoD. Original post was about when shards were colorless. I wasn't around for that, but my understanding is that it was a much more broken meta than the modern QQ over sopa/sofr. So Wyand's necro'd some now irrelevant topic with a total off topic tangent that nobody can even understand the inspiration for. It's okay to not've been around in 2011, but if you're going to necro have context. Back in 2011 there was a chance that things could change (in fact, they did), but do you really think Zanz is going to come back just to ban SoD from arena??!?!?

Is Wyand proof that we live in simulated reality??

What is my error? Yes, I judged the topic by its title, I didn't read thoroughly 30 pages (or at least a few to understand that the title is a bit
misleading since the game changed a lot since then). I wanted a topic where I wanted to write my concern about boring SoD decks which
dominate bronze/silver/gold for ages. Is it not a valid concern? Yeah, it is really funny and balanced to see the same decks owned by the
same player for eternity. Didn't want to start a new topic, that's it. I find it strange that no one told that "Hey Wyand, it isn't the best
topic thisandthis reason, I just replace your post here, it is more suitable there".

Another thing which is hilarious that both you serp, and Manuel talk like if I just stumbled into the forums 2 days ago. I know that
the game doesn't get updates, I know that SoD decks can be beaten (but I don't intend to play anti-SoD decks exclusively, no fun in
that), and yes, Arena is mainly broken because of NaN and 1 hp decks, but if you think SoD decks destroying the spirit of the Arena
is fun, well. Your opinion.

And I especially don't understand you, serprex. Did I step on your toes, huh? Experienced players should be always ready to give
explanations and help, not lecturing in a cynical way. Enough shit happening IRL and I come here to enjoy these moments which
are spent on forums/chat/game.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: serprex on May 20, 2019, 03:14:41 am
Would've been good if someone whispered you about necro etiquette, but there is an alert. If you're not going to read the thread, don't necro:
Quote
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 60 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

So already your post isn't going to garner sympathy. Then you're pleading to some "spirit of arena" which has never existed. The spirit of arena when it was populated were Bronze monoaether decks ignoring their oracle card, & in Plat it diversified into generic SGbows basically ignoring their oracle card, or monodark, or ghostmare, or DBH, or Purify-splash-to-troll-sosadials. See Arena stats to see how specific decks had to be for Plat. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/farming-studies-and-statistics/decks-used-against-arena-with-stats-1-32) Back when Arena was used SoD decks weren't ruling the meta. But your complaint was a broad statement, not really targeting a specific league of Arena. Maybe the argument is "the spirit of arena is old decks are meant to die off"?

It was my error to step into a heated discussion with tongue in cheek, & likely things were dying down enough that you were going to finally ignore Manuel & move on, so I should've done what everyone else has done & continued to ignore this face palm inducing thread. Fact that you haven't been here for only two days is what made this whole necro thread that much more confusing. Newer players randomly picking a nerf/buff thread to necro is normal (in fact, a "Nerf SoD" thread might be where this would've belonged)

Suggesting something be banned is also an extreme point of view. See the plenty of good discussions out there about players making knee-jerk complaints for buffs/nerfs in this era of games that get updates, & how Broodwar has continued to evolve after twenty years without any updates. Plenty of things players initially would've thought "this is broken" but it gets figured out & map makers compensated for the rest. & this trend exists also in MtG where any good deck has to do something unfair to break into the meta, & there'll always be some segment of the population who think some archetypes way of making things unfair goes too far

If your complaint is that SoD decks are restricting your viable options, that's off the mark. Especially if you're asking that you get to use SoSe/Mutations. SoD isn't what makes those cards bad in Arena. Arena gives the AI deck a hefty advantage so that you have to bring a deck which can quickly get something on the field which requires an answer from the opponent or else their starting advantage will be nullified. Random card advantage or mutations aren't going to cut it. For a good discussion of strategic headroom, see this really great blog post on balance in NetHack4. (http://nethack4.org/blog/strategy-headroom.html) This often becomes relevant in card game discussions where players feel their pet deck should always be viable. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument, since I'm not really understanding this thread to begin with

If you want to debate further with me please move it to PMs, I'd be happy to settle any misunderstandings there. Feel free to reply here if you want to get a last word in, but I'm going to step out of this thread now
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: ddevans96 on May 20, 2019, 05:32:15 am
I know that SoD decks can be beaten (but I don't intend to play anti-SoD decks exclusively, no fun in that)

I know fun is subjective, but personally, I've really been enjoying grinding Bronze recently.

I saw all the decks with literally only free creatures, tried them for a bit, and thought 'this is boring' and decided I wanted to do my own thing - so I shoved a bunch of cheap Water damage into a deck and filled it out from there. It's a little less efficient, to be sure, but it's cathartic to breeze through the 1HP fodder, has made for some very enjoyable games against other decks, has cards I love using, and still earns exponentially more electrum than anything I did years ago.

Is there no way to make a Mutation and/or SoSe deck scale well into endgame against decks with HP?
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Wyand on May 20, 2019, 10:17:10 am
Thx for the great post, serprex. OK, I quickly summarize it.

"the spirit of arena is old decks are meant to die off" - Exactly. Maybe you noticed that I'm sort of a purist in various things.

"necroing" - Sorry again. Can't exactly explain you why I necroed instead of starting a new topic, I know my
reasons, but hard to explain. Personal stuff.

"Plat decks having great advantage" - Sure and obvious thing.

"SoD/arena decks restricting my pet decks." - Not complaining about that. I know the limits of my decks.

ps: ddevans> my Mutation+TU deck is surprisingly good. A good start with it can even destroy The Immortal style decks. :)
I have the same feelings about my deck, maybe less efficient, but I love them, every card in it, and love those
cathartic wins.
Title: Re: Banning Supernova, Quantum Tower, and SoG from Arena (Yet another new poll)
Post by: Manuel on May 20, 2019, 12:51:59 pm
It was my error to step into a heated discussion about game knowledge

i agree

finally ignore Manuel

lmao u are my biggest fan, always posting  don't be shy serpex

so I should've done what everyone else has done & continued to ignore this face palm inducing thread.

yes we have an incredibile amount of posts in other totally relevant threads, more than half of the section are full of face palming threads? talk for yourself not for other players, there are a lot of theoretical and abandoned threads where i am sure, u can learn a lot from them

i have 20 pages of plat decks posted where most of them have only 1 loss, several other alts, peaked every arena several times, maybe i am free to talk about arena without you trying to get attentions from me
blarg: