*Author

Offline ArumTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 853
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 14
  • Arum is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Arum is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Hard hearts for hard days.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528552#msg528552
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2012, 03:44:21 pm »
Hmph. I guess you're right.
O M A M
M o n s t e r s
A n d
M e n

Offline artimies7

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
  • Reputation Power: 24
  • artimies7 is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.artimies7 is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.artimies7 is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.artimies7 is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.
  • Effectively Super
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528556#msg528556
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2012, 04:05:42 pm »
Why do you guys have to find opposites for everything that other people have made?

Granted, every push has the opportunity for a pull, but how can you pull the push of, say, moss?
Donuts, Noodles, or Bacon?
Whitewalleries! | Noodles, to Victory!

Offline ArumTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 853
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 14
  • Arum is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Arum is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Hard hearts for hard days.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528557#msg528557
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 04:08:15 pm »
Why do you guys have to find opposites for everything that other people have made?

Granted, every push has the opportunity for a pull, but how can you pull the push of, say, moss?

WAT.
O M A M
M o n s t e r s
A n d
M e n

Offline artimies7

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
  • Reputation Power: 24
  • artimies7 is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.artimies7 is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.artimies7 is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.artimies7 is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.
  • Effectively Super
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528559#msg528559
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2012, 04:12:10 pm »
Why do you guys have to find opposites for everything that other people have made?

Granted, every push has the opportunity for a pull, but how can you pull the push of, say, moss?

WAT.

Well, you guys were talking about opposites. In fact, you started out talking about opposites.
So I found the flaw in your argument. That's how debating goes, right?
Donuts, Noodles, or Bacon?
Whitewalleries! | Noodles, to Victory!

Offline ArumTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 853
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 14
  • Arum is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Arum is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Hard hearts for hard days.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528585#msg528585
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2012, 06:05:42 pm »
Why do you guys have to find opposites for everything that other people have made?

Granted, every push has the opportunity for a pull, but how can you pull the push of, say, moss?

WAT.

Well, you guys were talking about opposites. In fact, you started out talking about opposites.
So I found the flaw in your argument. That's how debating goes, right?
I meant to say that what you said makes no sense to me.
O M A M
M o n s t e r s
A n d
M e n

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528611#msg528611
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2012, 07:34:23 pm »
Why do you guys have to find opposites for everything that other people have made?

Granted, every push has the opportunity for a pull, but how can you pull the push of, say, moss?

WAT.

Well, you guys were talking about opposites. In fact, you started out talking about opposites.
So I found the flaw in your argument. That's how debating goes, right?
I meant to say that what you said makes no sense to me.
He was using the common definition of opposite rather than your definition. In addition he was using push and pull as names for the pair of opposites.
So his question was "What is the opposite of moss?" using the common definition of opposite rather than your definition.

Quote
contrary or radically different in some respect common to both, as in nature, qualities, direction, result, or significance; opposed: opposite sides in a controversy; opposite directions.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 07:36:45 pm by OldTrees »
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Offline Bloodshadow

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528647#msg528647
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2012, 10:06:24 pm »
It still hasn't been answered why everything has to have an opposite to exist. Arum, your posts in this thread have so many logical fallacies that I can't point all of them out without sounding condescending and offensive. I don't have the time right now, but I can point them out if you don't believe me.

Also, as said before, time is a very real physical entity in relativity. It has been experimentally verified countless times.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline memimemi

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 6
  • memimemi is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Always something more to learn!
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528667#msg528667
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2012, 11:02:47 pm »
The main fallacy being committed, here, is the assumption that :time is a Thing, like a rock, a gerbil, or an election.

How about these three: a feeling, a triumph, a season?  These, I think, are nouns that lie closer to :time.

Schopenhauer had some solid points to make on these distinctions, as did Kant and (obliquely) Wittgenstein.  But, rather than type out a dissertation on the history of German Philosophy, I'll give a simple example:

Compare existence to a painting; time, space, and dimensionality are the canvases upon which all experience is imprinted.  Is the canvas equivalent to the painting?  Is the painting required, in order to have a canvas?

Time is an objective dimension of the universe; it's raw existence is best demonstrated by the Laws of Thermodynamics, particularly the Second Law, which is often quoted as being the source of our experience of an "arrow of time."  This would be the painting, in our analogy.

On a quantum level, time becomes much more chaotic; antiparticles can be accurately described (mathematically) as particles moving backward in time.  Time, on a fundamental level, is in a constant state of flux.  As creatures living on a macro plane, we only experience the statistical average of many, many interactions beneath our notice.  This is the raw, "canvas" aspect of time.

To summarize: :time exists; our perceptions of it are fundamentally incapable of giving us a true picture; ergo, it is necessary to distinguish, semantically, between Time (the dimension) and time (our experiences of motion, change, and chronology).  We must be careful to be clear whether we're speaking of the canvas (time, qua time), or the painting (our experience of "timeness").

Interesting note: Time happens now; our perceptual process requires in the range of 150-250 ms to give a result - so, we can only speak meaningfully about the past, however recent.
The counter to :gravity isn't :aether; it's :D

Offline Bloodshadow

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528716#msg528716
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2012, 03:56:33 am »
I don't believe in the "arrow of time" thing. Or, at least, my current understanding of physics is not sufficient to convince me that the "arrow of time" concept is worth considering. Time can't be only an indicator of entropy. For one thing, it doesn't reconcile with relativity. For another thing, on a quantum level it is actually possible for entropy to spontaneously decrease, as far as I know; entropy only tends to increase on a macroscopic scale.

You know what? I'm going to point out all logical fallacies in this thread. I don't mean to offend anyone with this post. So if you think I'm sounding condescending, deal with it.

The most prominent logical fallacies in this thread are ambiguity, and the lack of internal consistency. A number of hidden assumptions have also been made, but not explicitly stated, making the ambiguities worse.

Time has a problem. It can't logically exist.

Here, look at it this way. Everything has an opposite that it exists with. Life has death. Love has hate. Time has stasis, but where is stasis shown?
Stasis only appears in our perception of time, yet it doesn't affect anything else. This means that Time is only a part of perception, and not a real event or thing. It is only an abstract word for an experience that happens during our life.

This means we can perceive time however we like, with a second being forever or an hour being a very short length of experience in the world.

1. You assume that everything has an opposite. You have not stated why this is so, and you have not stated clearly just exactly what it means to be opposite.

2. You assume that if an object possesses some property, its opposite also possesses that property. You then concluded that if "stasis" has the property "is a part of human perception", its opposite, "time", has that property as well. You have not stated why this is so.

3. You have not distinguished between time itself, the dimension, and movement through time. "Stasis", the lack of movement through time, is only the opposite of movement through time, not time itself. This is one of your many ambiguities.

Everything has an opposite that it exists with.
What's the opposite of a book.
Journal or movie.

As long as there is a defined line, something can have many opposites.

4. You are being very ambiguous here. How many opposites can an object have? Why?

5. In #2 you assume that if the opposite of an object has some property, then the object has that property as well. But what if one of the object's opposites has some property, but another of the object's opposites doesn't have that property? A journal has the property of being composed of words, but a movie has the property of being not composed of words; they're supposedly both opposites of a book. When you have conflicting properties like this, which one takes precedence? Why?

Opposite: Adj. A term used to describe a cancellation of each other in some way or form.

6. This definition is highly ambiguous. What does it mean for two objects to cancel each other? What remains after the cancellation? What are the limitations to "some way or form"?

.... then you have to explain how a journal/movie cancels a book, in any way or form.
A book you read. It is physical.
A movie you watch. It is more static.

Physical movement=/=automative movement

A journal you write.
A book you read.

Read=/=write

7. Here, you're speaking as though inequality is the same thing as cancellation. No, they are not the same thing. 1 is not equal to 2, but they do not cancel each other in any way, as far as I know, assuming that we're operating in the system of mathematics accepted by the general populace.

8. Here, you've violated your assumption #2. Back then, you assumed that if an object possesses some property, its opposite also possesses the same property. A book is a physical object, but a movie is not. If only certain properties are shared between opposites, you have not clearly defined what these properties are.

It depends on what height. If it is general height, then height will cancel itself out.

9. You are stating that some objects are their own opposites, but haven't clarified when, how, or why. You are also not being clear exactly what you mean by "general" height.

Hmph. I guess you're right.

10. You are admitting that your opponent is correct. You are not continuing to defend your position. Does this mean you surrender?

Why do you guys have to find opposites for everything that other people have made?

Granted, every push has the opportunity for a pull, but how can you pull the push of, say, moss?

WAT.

Well, you guys were talking about opposites. In fact, you started out talking about opposites.
So I found the flaw in your argument. That's how debating goes, right?
I meant to say that what you said makes no sense to me.

11. Your inability to understand your opponent does not necessarily make your opponent's argument incorrect or invalid.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline Absol

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2383
  • Country: id
  • Reputation Power: 35
  • Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.Absol is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.
  • Consectetur Adipiscing Elit
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528733#msg528733
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2012, 04:50:36 am »
To everyone here:
I saw in chat yesterday that this thread is just "trolling". Or is it joking?
Will search chat history later. The point is, this should be moved to humor section.
"Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit."
"There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain."

Offline Pineapple

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4105
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 0
  • Pineapple hides under a Cloak.
  • Master of Cake
  • Awards: Silver DonorSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528735#msg528735
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2012, 04:55:43 am »
Pretty sure Arum is trolling.

As the opposite of Life is the absence of such (Death), and the opposite of Heat is the absence of such (Cold), the opposite of Time is the absence of such (Stasis, as he said), which exists but outside our observation.

Offline Bloodshadow

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 46
  • Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Bloodshadow is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • 吞天纳地,魔渡众生。天下万物,唯我至尊。
  • Awards: Ultimate Profile WinnerOpposites Attract
Re: Meaning of time https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42444.msg528751#msg528751
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2012, 06:01:27 am »
I haven't been to the forums in a while. I thought Arum is trolling as well, but I don't know him, and didn't want to offend him, so I didn't accuse him of trolling. If he is trolling though... I'm disappointed.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

 

blarg: