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Offline godmatrixTopic starter

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Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064375#msg1064375
« on: April 27, 2013, 09:31:35 am »
I am not the brightest person but I am very interested in science, and I have read in a book, which later sparked an interest to do some research, about these Gravitational Lenses, that bend light and I have a few questions that the I couldn't come up with an answer to:
1. These lenses are made by very dense objects in space, like Galaxies and Quasars, but how dense does the Galaxy, Quasar or any object, have to be in order for the Gravitational Lens effect to take place? Or is the bending of light influenced by something other then the power gravitational pull?
2. Furthermore, could such an effect merge two objects behind two Galaxies,each, which sit side-by-side, and make one?
Let me elaborate so I can make some sense. Suppose there are two Galaxies side-by-side, and there are two objects behind each. Now, could the Gravitational Lens of the two Galaxies that sit side-by-side give a false image of the two objects that are behind each and merge them to be an image in the middle of both? Also the two Galaxies are fairly identical, say about 5% off on size difference.

More questions may be added because I may forget some of them.
Here is an image of what I mean, sorry but I'm no good at making awesome images but I think this will get the point across.

The Curved non dotted lines are the bent light by the gravity of each galaxy, and the dotted line is my question, really: would the observer see a merged version of Object A and B?

Also, if any information here I conveyed is false, do tell me, because I did say I wasn't the brightest, and sometimes make the wrong assumptions.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 10:02:17 am by godmatrix »

Offline kaempfer13

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Re: Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064380#msg1064380
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2013, 09:58:12 am »
to your 1st questions: Since photons (of which the light consists) have got (an incredibly small) weight they are influenced by any kind of gravitation. But since Photons fly with the highest speed possible and their weight is tiny you will only be able to observe this effect, if light comes close to sth really heavy (however there is no specific critical value).
On another note I've also heard that there is a material that is able to bend light around itself, showing you what is behind it instead of showing itself (I have no idea how that works, but it doesnt have anything to do with gravitation).

2: Those are very unlikely conditions, but certainly somewhere in this infinite universe there must be a place where this happens. Then the result would look like two pictures projected on the same screen.
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Offline godmatrixTopic starter

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Re: Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064382#msg1064382
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2013, 10:08:00 am »
Right, I forgot photons are almost weightless, which makes sense for them to be easily changed in course.
And do you mean something like(for 2):


Offline kaempfer13

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Re: Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064384#msg1064384
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2013, 10:22:36 am »
Actually I was referring to the fact that they do have a mass after all means that they are influenced by gravity. But you're absolutely right that the low mass also makes it easier to alter the course, so that the course of the photons only depends on the starting speed (lightspeed) and mass and distance from the heavy object.

2: Exactly
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Offline Fippe94

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Re: Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064391#msg1064391
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2013, 11:35:29 am »
Photons does in fact not have mass, but they are indeed influenced by gravity anyways.
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Re: Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064448#msg1064448
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2013, 03:06:43 pm »
Photons does in fact not have mass, but they are indeed influenced by gravity anyways.

They have inertial mass (which is what matters for gravity), since they have energy. They don't have a rest mass, however.

If you use the geometrical interpretation of general relativity you see that the huge mass of quasars, huge stars, etc. actually distorts the geometry around them in a noticeable way and photons are (as far as they can tell) moving always in the same direction. The curved trajectory is because of the geometric distortions around the star.
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Offline godmatrixTopic starter

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Re: Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064680#msg1064680
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 08:37:53 am »
Yeah, I read somewhere that photons don't have mass but they had weight, meaning they had some sort of mass. Thanks to andre for clearing that up, I didn't know they had a different kind of mass...I guess other things also have "inertial mass"?

my best guess on inertial mass:
Mass of an object while they are opposing a force which is trying to change them.

Does that mean that huge stars, quasars, actually bend the path of a photon while the photon is going in a straight line? (I am imagining a straight line on a flat paper, which is then curved.)
Picture of such a thing will be on the way.


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Re: Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064684#msg1064684
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2013, 09:27:02 am »
If I'm not wrong, there should be a formula about to: F=(G*M1*M2)/(r^2), where F is the gravitational force that attracts the two objects (in our case the quasar or the black hole or whatever and the photons), G is the Gravitational constant (don't remember exactly the number we haven't studied this formula yet at school, given that I'm 16, it's already good that I know it, google for it, you should find it), M1 is the mass of the first object, and M2 of the second one, while r is the distance from one object to the other one.
This basically demonstrates that everything is attracted to everything else, but that G is a number so little that it would get down all of your hopes of attracting that cellphone that's ringing on your desk while you are on your bed, making it work only if you have the mass of the earth, approximatively.
Another malus math is getting on you, is that your cellphone is as little as a ray of light, a photon, that would need you to be way bigger than Earth (crushing everything around you, but those are simple details).
Now, I don't know anything about gravitational lenses, but logically speaking, they "simply" take some photons and make them turn, turning they go faster, going faster reduces the attraction to the object (not really correct, I'll focus on this later), thus they're "catapulted" against us. If you do this with two quasars and two objects you'll have that effect.

About the attraction from one object to another, the formula I wrote up there is sheer attraction, nothing more, nothing less, however the speed of the object (the less big one) matters for this.
One of Kepler's laws said that "A line joining a planet and the Sun sweeps out equal areas during equal intervals of time.".
That basically means that a object attracted to another one to the point of creating an orbit around it, goes faster when nearer and slower when farther. We can even say  that 1 (the littlest object) goes faster when nearer to 2 (the biggest object) in order to not be attracted too much to it to the point it hits 2. However, when going faster and being farther from 1 it will go too fast for that distance, and then getting out of the let's-call-it-orbit-even-though-it's-not-really-an-orbit.
That's why black holes are black, because photons can't leave it and without photons we see it as black. However, it doesn't change the colors of stuff that's far from it, because the photons have an about to non-existent inertial mass and they are, indeed, far.

Given those points, aside a minumum mass 1 must have (surely it's possible to calculate it, but there are too many variables for me to calculate it), it can be as big as you want, as long as you keep it at the right distance, relatively to its mass (bigger object will be farther).

Oh well, I'll go read something on them lenses when I have some time, they look quite interesting.

Offline Fabio_S

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Re: Gravitational Lenses In Space https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48797.msg1064691#msg1064691
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2013, 10:41:08 am »
Leo be carefull: the formula that you wrote, is the about the Newtonian (classical) Gravitation. The Grav Lens are a quite complicated effect of Einstein's general relativity... a "little" more complicated of the Newtonian ones :D

And Godmatrix the photon don't have any kind of weight, they have momentum (but it is another stuff). The deviation of photon are caused by a distrotion of the metric underlying... How? It's very very complex to explain... But is like that straight line, is no more straight. Unless you immerse all the space in a (4+1)-dimensional space...

PS GR said "Inertial mass= Gravitational mass" so m_i (photon)=0.
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