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Offline Xenocidius

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg416784#msg416784
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2011, 01:37:50 am »
I guess I'll be the first to say it ...

That deck was not legit.
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Offline TuckingFypo

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg416785#msg416785
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 01:44:28 am »
Well...we Tucking screwed up big time here...
Ermm...fixed.  One. Million. Thousand. Sorry's.  And then some.

I (and DD too I think?) honestly did not see an error pop up in the Deck Compliance regarding that Bone Pillar though.  And Kev just said in Vault Chat that someone deleted the formulas for the responsible cells in our Vault too.

Offline Jocko

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg416794#msg416794
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2011, 02:22:57 am »
*slowpoke*
@Rush:
If a deck is illegal, it can't be played. I can't imagine how you'd not win in less than 13 turns against an unexistant deck.

Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg416800#msg416800
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 02:39:04 am »
Well...we Tucking screwed up big time here...
Ermm...fixed.  One. Million. Thousand. Sorry's.  And then some.

I (and DD too I think?) honestly did not see an error pop up in the Deck Compliance regarding that Bone Pillar though.  And Kev just said in Vault Chat that someone deleted the formulas for the responsible cells in our Vault too.
Yep, I went through that twice, once after it was posted, and once an hour or so before the round ended to check that the deck matched up with the ones posted on the thread, and there was no sign of anything missing, no yellow pop up or anything at all actually. I'm extremely confused by this, but I don't hold any blame whatsoever here, stuff sometimes happens.


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Offline Sevs

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg416888#msg416888
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 08:10:36 am »
Yea this error is going to double check every single cell on the page every round lol
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Offline the dictator

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg416895#msg416895
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 08:32:37 am »
Hmm, I understand why everyone is a bit angry about the 3 card bonus salvage, but I can see the reasoning: I could build a totally illegal deck, but full of heals and stuff just to deny him his 13 turn win.

So, I would like to suggest the following: play team lifes deck against a deck of all pillars, if they manage to win in less than 13 turns (in three tries), they can have their salvage.

Maybe a bit too late right now, but it might be a good way to act in case of future problems.

Because, if team life would have build some kind of heal + dissipation shield stall, they would have still got their 9 card salvage, which seems wrong.
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Offline MatrimKK

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg416973#msg416973
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 02:31:26 pm »
Life got the 3 bonus cards because it is possible to get less than 13 ttw. 
I have faith if it was questionable the Warmasters would address it as so. 

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg416984#msg416984
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 02:56:22 pm »
I don't like basing something just off the possibility.  I mean it's possible that I can beat a hard counter in the best of 5 and it's possible that I can have a perfect draw every game.  Since you don't play the game, then any deck no matter what should get the extra salvage this round based on that ruling.  At least that would be my argument if you tried to rule against me.  So whether it be illegal or a suicide deck.....you need to play something out.

So maybe something like The dicator suggested should be implemented.  Just like in any other best of 5, you may be the most probable person to win, but you still play the matches because you may be suprised by the outcome.  In this particular example, what is to say Life doesn't have horrid luck in their draws and can't seem to amass lower than 13 ttw games?  Is that likely to happen.....no, but that doesn't mean it's not possible.  So where it may be possible to get under 12ttw for that deck, there is also a possibility that it will not.  Seeing that it's not 100% guarantee, then how can you be 100% confident in just handing them the extra salvage.

Maybe it seems like I'm being over the top here, but that makes sense logically and to represent a fair ruiling.

Offline Zeru

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg417013#msg417013
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 04:04:35 pm »
So whether it be illegal or a suicide deck.....you need to play something out.
But you can't. Air cannot use that deck. If it was simply a suicide deck, you can play it out, but if it's illegal, your opponent loses instantly.
That is the bottom line. Do you really see this free bonus for walkover unfair?
Quote
Maybe it seems like I'm being over the top here, but that makes sense logically and to represent a fair ruiling.
Again, team Air did not prepare a deck for Life to fight with. You might as well play it out against a mono pillar deck. Here is my logic: It is unfair to rob team Life from the bonus that they could have won, when the fault is not on their side. Therefore it is fair to give them the bonus, when the fault is not on their side.

As for the the "probability" argument. Average TTW does not matter in these matches. Only the speed that actually happens matters for the end result. You see it as if Life did not meet the requirements and try to put a probability scale on their chances to achieve the bonus. Two problems:
- In a practical sense, their match was decided before the coin toss. TTW = 0. This victory is way faster than any other in this round.
- Putting a decent probability to their chances would require collecting a large sample of matches to get a reliable result. Let's assume that it's about 66%. In that case, your more fair system would require a vast amount of work.. only to change the ruling from 3 to 2. Your giant discussion is really about whether they should get 3 or 2 cards. Do you really see 1 single card as a problem? :D

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg417017#msg417017
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2011, 04:09:13 pm »
So whether it be illegal or a suicide deck.....you need to play something out.
But you can't. Air cannot use that deck. If it was simply a suicide deck, you can play it out, but if it's illegal, your opponent loses instantly.
That is the bottom line. Do you really see this free bonus for walkover unfair?
Quote
Maybe it seems like I'm being over the top here, but that makes sense logically and to represent a fair ruiling.
Again, team Air did not prepare a deck for Life to fight with. You might as well play it out against a mono pillar deck. Here is my logic: It is unfair to rob team Life from the bonus that they could have won, when the fault is not on their side. Therefore it is fair to give them the bonus, when the fault is not on their side.

As for the the "probability" argument. Average TTW does not matter in these matches. Only the speed that actually happens matters for the end result. You see it as if Life did not meet the requirements and try to put a probability scale on their chances to achieve the bonus. Two problems:
- In a practical sense, their match was decided before the coin toss. TTW = 0. This victory is way faster than any other in this round.
- Putting a decent probability to their chances would require collecting a large sample of matches to get a reliable result. Let's assume that it's about 66%. In that case, your more fair system would require a vast amount of work.. only to change the ruling from 3 to 2. Your giant discussion is really about whether they should get 3 or 2 cards. Do you really see 1 single card as a problem? :D
I don't think we're on the same page.

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg417040#msg417040
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 05:49:00 pm »
So far I'm seeing 2 different reasons for claims that Warmasters made an incorrect call here.  I'd like to directly analyze both of these arguments.
1)  Players should play it out against a 30 Pillar deck.
Fine, that's plausible, but I could easily argue out as unnecessary due to
a.
Attention everyone: I read this thread three times through and it turns out someone asked an on-topic question!

Event card question:

If a team were to suicide, would their opponent receive an event card bonus? If so, does it depend on their posted deck?
Warmasters will take a look at both decks and decide whether the matches need to be played out in order to determine opponent's Event Card success.  ie if it's a 30 pillar deck versus a 31 pillar deck using the "Stall" Event Card, there's no need to play and opponent will be given the extra salvage.  If opponent is using the "Rush" Event Card and your deck is mostly junk but has a couple mark-powered dimshields or something, we'll ask you to play it out.  The silver lining is because you know you're going to lose, anyone on your team can sub.

When in doubt, play it out.
I'm surprised it isn't obvious that our deck is perfectly capable of killing a 30 Pillar deck in less than 13 turns.  And given this fact in addition to what kev already stated above, I wouldn't think a match would be needed and that the call could just be made in our favor.  If you're assuming that just because of this one incident that this is how all matches will be decided, then I advise you to think again.
If you're not convinced that our deck can win in less than 13 turns, I actually bothered to test before making this claim to make 100% sure that I was correct.  Here are the results from the last game I played:
b.  What Zeru already said.  If you consider an illegal deck as the opponent not having a deck to play to begin with then in that case we win before the duel even started.
2)  Because the opponent's deck was illegal, the entire Event bonus should be forfeit.
I really don't think it's fair for a team to lose out on a bonus like this just because the opposing team failed to catch a mistake somewhere.  There's literally nothing that we could have done to prevent this from occurring, and that makes such a decision inexcusable.
Furthermore, let's consider the fact that for all duels where illegal decks are used, the Event Card bonus is forfeit.  Now consider having the weaker teams purposely play illegal decks against the strongest team.  This might seem inconceivable, but at this stage in War we have several teams already suiciding to opposing teams due to discarding, penalties, etc.  In this case it would be beneficial for them to send this type of a deck against a team doing better than the rest given that there is a higher chance that they will not be able to create a deck that will not be countered by the top team.  Therefore, that weaker team is now increasing their chances of defeating the other teams while preventing the strongest team from receiving additional cards to use from the event.  That is a clear exploit and should be prevented from occurring entirely.  Assuming that this Event Card is used again next War, that needed to be clarified.
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Offline the dictator

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Re: (Life) Lt. ak65ala 0 - (Air) Legit 0 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32954.msg417078#msg417078
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 07:34:32 pm »
(...)
I'm surprised it isn't obvious that our deck is perfectly capable of killing a 30 Pillar deck in less than 13 turns.
(...)
For this deck it is, but my suggestion was more a general one in case it happens again. For some decks or other event cards it might be not that obvious. (Take for example Tiko's deck this round: bolts and fahrenheit IS capable of winning in 13 turns, but you need a good draw for that too happen.) Sorry in case I seemed a bit harsh on team life, I was just using this situation and your deck as a general example.
The problem here is, as Zeru pointed out, you can't play it out against an illegal deck, because you could then build an illegal deck designed to deny your opponent the bonus. For example, air had build a nova grabby, or some fast gas deck, and manages to outrush you every time, how the heck are going to acquire a turn to win, you can't force him to let you win. Thus I suggested playing against an all pillar deck, that way the illegal deck doesn't affect the outcome, and in cases of doubt it could decide.
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